Watchdog - advocating 'stopping short' on National Express

[trainophile]

Anyone see Watchdog tonight? Interesting item about fares anomaly with National Express, along the lines of some rail Advance tickets, i.e. it can be a lot cheaper to buy a ticket to somewhere further, rather than to a closer destination. They suggest buying the cheaper ticket and 'stopping short', i.e. getting off the coach before reaching the destination on your ticket.

Just wondered whether this is officially permitted on National Express, as it is a big No No on rail tickets.

 

[Crossover]

I saw it too. They said last week they looked at rail fares, though I missed that.

I can't hlp but think it would be a no-no on coaches too, though I don't know the official line.

It is pretty obvious some of the more costly fares are aimed at a captive market though!

 

[yorkie]

What is the driver going to do?

I can feel unwell on coaches, and would be most unimpressed if they attempted to illegally detain me on a coach!

Also, don't drivers have to change regularly anyway? I doubt they can somehow know exactly where everyone is getting off.

If companies want to have pricing anomalies then they shouldn't be surprised if people consume less of the 'product' than they're entitled to!

I didn't watch it, but I guess it's going to be similar to the nonsense that occurs on the railways where you have to buy a ticket to somewhere like Elsenham to avoid paying the extortionate fares to Stansted Airport?
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it is a big No No on rail tickets.

Actually it is a "big yes, yes" unless it is "made clear in the Train Company's notices and other publications" that you can't break your journey.

Even then, when it is "made clear" that you can't, the general policy of the rail industry is to allow people to do it anyway (source: ATOC guidance to TOCs).

 

[trainophile]

What is the driver going to do?

I can feel unwell on coaches, and would be most unimpressed if they attempted to illegally detain me on a coach!

Also, don't drivers have to change regularly anyway? I doubt they can somehow know exactly where everyone is getting off.

If companies want to have pricing anomalies then they shouldn't be surprised if people consume less of the 'product' than they're entitled to!

I didn't watch it, but I guess it's going to be similar to the nonsense that occurs on the railways where you have to buy a ticket to somewhere like Elsenham to avoid paying the extortionate fares to Stansted Airport?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually it is a "big yes, yes" unless it is "made clear in the Train Company's notices and other publications" that you can't break your journey.

Even then, when it is "made clear" that you can't, the general policy of the rail industry is to allow people to do it anyway (source: ATOC guidance to TOCs).

You do surprise me. There have been numerous discussions on here about holders of Advance tickets wanting to stop short, and they are always strongly advised that this is not allowed, and liable to result in prosecution if they decide to take the chance.

Are we at cross purposes?

 

[starrymarkb]

It is permitted to stop short on NatEx with the Following Provisos...

It must be the same service you were booked on.
You can not stop/start short at Airports.
If starting short your seat will not be guaranteed as they will treat you as a no show and may give your seat to a standby passenger.
You must tell the driver your plans on boarding if you have hold bags so your bags can go in the right stack in the hold. Presumably it's a good idea to do so if alighting at a smaller stop as the coach may miss it out if there are no prebookings (same with boarding)

This is all detailed on the tickets, so it's not exactly a secret they've been hiding. Of course the driver can't stop you bailing at Heathrow if you don't have hold baggage, but boarding may be a different matter Also the drivers will not let you bail at random service stations - I've seen a Woman refused her luggage from the hold at Taunton Deane services during the crew change, she had a ticket for Exeter but wanted to alight at Taunton. The coach was booked non stop Heathrow to Exeter - The driver did point out that often due to traffic they often have to move the change north to Bridgwater, Sedgemoor or Gordeno and that she'd have to go to Exeter and make her own way back.

 

[radamfi]

National Express do have a clear policy on stopping short. The only restrictions are that you have to tell the driver where you are getting off so the bag is in the right place, and you are not allowed to stop short at an airport (airport services usually cost a lot more).

Getting on at a later stop is more tricky. It is allowed, however if you don't board at the stop on your ticket, they reserve the right to resell that seat so there may not be space when you try to get on. Again, this is not allowed at an airport.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I agree that National Express have always been pretty easy going when it comes to this sort of thing. On my (somewhat rare) coach journeys I've also been allowed to use my cheapo ticket on an earlier service, as there were spaces available.

I wasn't impressed by what I saw on Watchdog though. That programme is increasingly tedious, and doesn't tackle any of the big issues, preferring to mess around with gimmicks like Matt Allwright confronting some bloke about fly tipping.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I didn't watch it, but I guess it's going to be similar to the nonsense that occurs on the railways where you have to buy a ticket to somewhere like Elsenham to avoid paying the extortionate fares to Stansted Airport?

Do tell about the Stansted Airport trick, not heard of it but it sounds usefu?

 

[radamfi]

I didn't watch Watchdog but I wonder if they explained why this occurs? National Express cheapest fares are generally only available on routes where they compete with Megabus. Megabus serve fewer intermediate locations so National Express can get away with higher fares to these places.

Similarly, you can save money by getting two coach tickets. I regularly travel from Rochdale to London and get two tickets, one from Rochdale to Manchester and another from Manchester to London, because there are no cheap tickets from Rochdale to London.

 

[Greenback]

I didn't watch Watchdog but I wonder if they explained why this occurs? National Express cheapest fares are generally only available on routes where they compete with Megabus. Megabus serve fewer intermediate locations so National Express can get away with higher fares to these places.

No, they declared that Nat Ex were unable to explain the price discrepancies, though they did quote some rubbish about popular routes.

So either the coach company are so dense that they can't understand their own business plan, or the Watchdog researchers contacted the wrong department or couldn't work out what they were told.

My money is on the latter!

 

[Crossover]

I didn't watch Watchdog but I wonder if they explained why this occurs?

No, of course they wouldn't put together any such reasoning!

They said they spoke to NatEx, who "couldn't explain it either" :roll:

 

[starrymarkb]

Probably a Reseacher rang the central booking line (08717 818181) and grilled a low level minon?

 

[yorkie]

You do surprise me. There have been numerous discussions on here about holders of Advance tickets wanting to stop short, and they are always strongly advised that this is not allowed, and liable to result in prosecution if they decide to take the chance.

Are we at cross purposes?

That's not what NRCoC Condition 16 says at all.

And, while I know some people don't like it, and as mentioned and debated at great length in previous threads, the facts are, rightly or wrongly, that guidance from ATOC is not to charge an excess fare. Anyone in that situation can easily get their story published by the Press (as we've seen) and, again as we have seen, be refunded.

I wouldn't encourage it though, but if someone asks about it, it's only right that people have the actual T&Cs explained - which are that the Train Company can charge an excess fare to the cheapest appropriate ticket, and that the policy of the rail industry is, in fact, not to charge this anyway.
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Do tell about the Stansted Airport trick, not heard of it but it sounds usefu?

Loads of info about it on the forum: Google search: elsenham stansted site:www.railforums.co.uk

Another example that cropped up the other day is that a single from Ulleskelf to Leeds is cheaper than a single from Church Fenton to Leeds. But Church Fenton is closer to Leeds than Ulleskelf, on the same line!

There are many examples of it being cheaper to go further, probably several thousand, but some of the best ones are also the most 'at risk' if TOC pricing managers became aware of it (the 'solution' is generally to increase the price, or restrict the validity, of the cheaper ticket, rather than the other way round).

 

[Butts]

You do surprise me. There have been numerous discussions on here about holders of Advance tickets wanting to stop short, and they are always strongly advised that this is not allowed, and liable to result in prosecution if they decide to take the chance.

Are we at cross purposes?

It depends on the journey being undertaken....my favourite Megatrain Edinburgh to Birmingham getting off at Wolverhampton is full proof as I already have a ticket to SAD and there are no barriers.

As it arrives after 2200 RPI's are as scarce as hens teeth
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I agree that National Express have always been pretty easy going when it comes to this sort of thing. On my (somewhat rare) coach journeys I've also been allowed to use my cheapo ticket on an earlier service, as there were spaces available.

I wasn't impressed by what I saw on Watchdog though. That programme is increasingly tedious, and doesn't tackle any of the big issues, preferring to mess around with gimmicks like Matt Allwright confronting some bloke about fly tipping.

Bring back Mr Campbell

 

[cambsy]

Recently had National Express coach ticket from Exeter to Victoria, on a cheap ticket, had no baggage, so bailed out Heathrow to be quicker in to London as was morning rush hour, easy to do as drivers change at Taunton Deane services, no one checks when getting off coach if no baggage, wouldn't get on at Heathrow if had ticket from Victoria as will be checked by driver.

 

[Statto]

National Express do have a clear policy on stopping short. The only restrictions are that you have to tell the driver where you are getting off so the bag is in the right place, and you are not allowed to stop short at an airport (airport services usually cost a lot more).

Getting on at a later stop is more tricky. It is allowed, however if you don't board at the stop on your ticket, they reserve the right to resell that seat so there may not be space when you try to get on. Again, this is not allowed at an airport.

I get away with stopping short at Airports by only having one holdall which is small enough to be allowed to be taken on board, rather than be stored in the hold, plus the coach is normally a decker[overnight run from Liverpool-London, originating at Blackpool] so i get the chance to sneak off, although i'm not catching a flight, it's easier for the Tube.

 

[sonic2009]

I didn't think NatEx ran any deckers anymore.

 

[Deerfold]

I didn't think NatEx ran any deckers anymore.

They "withdrew" their fleet of 11 after a crash in 2007 - but only whilst they underwent testing.

 

[starrymarkb]

They don't - the Skyliners/Berkhofs were all replaced with 15m Plaxton Panthers in 2009 (think posher version of Megabus) all are based at Park's Plymouth Depot (formerly Trathens) - I get a feeling that 15m Elites may follow.

http://flic.kr/p/ca2eHu

 

[185]

The only time on National Express I enforced "you aint getting off 'ere" was at Marble Arch (hand luggage only set down stop) where people bringing the kitchen sink were demanding to get off.

I often gave in to them, but reminded them I would deposit their luggage at Victoria :P

 

[maniacmartin]

The big difference is coaches don't have railway legislation, such as the Railway Byelaws or RoRA, so the worst they can do you for that I can think of is breach of contract - a civil case for which they'd have to prove some demonstrable loss.

 

[Statto]

They don't - the Skyliners/Berkhofs were all replaced with 15m Plaxton Panthers in 2009 (think posher version of Megabus) all are based at Park's Plymouth Depot (formerly Trathens) - I get a feeling that 15m Elites may follow.

http://flic.kr/p/ca2eHu

Tells how long ago since i've been on an NEX service, but always a chance of being able to sneak off early as when the Coach stops at a timing point, if you only have hand luggage & if there's no assistant, the driver will have to get off the Coach in order to open the luggage compartment.

 

[starrymarkb]

They don't - the Skyliners/Berkhofs were all replaced with 15m Plaxton Panthers in 2009 (think posher version of Megabus) all are based at Park's Plymouth Depot (formerly Trathens) - I get a feeling that 15m Elites may follow.

http://flic.kr/p/ca2eHu

I was right - 15m Elites are now replacing the Panthers.

 

[Drsatan]

I've 'stopped short' on a Megabus on one occasion without any issues. The stop in question was a booked stop (so the luggage hold was opened), which meant I could retrieve my bags without any issues. I understand there might be issues with stopping short at request-only stops.

Of course, I can imagine any attempt by a driver to stop you from stopping short might be considered as false imprisonment.