Water tankers

[Waddon]

There's a lot of coverage in the newspapers at present about water shortages and drought conditions and how expensive pipelines may be needed to join the North to the South.

However these will take a long time to build and will be very expensive, I was wondering, is this something which could be done on the railways? Using former tanker wagons, or tank-containers on container wagons maybe, shipping water to where it's needed, much cheaper and more flexible than huge pipelines, and maybe something which could be got up and running quickly to alleviate the current problems.

Does anyone know if this has been attempted before, or even if it is feasible, and whether any suitable rolling stock already exists?

 

[HSTEd]

Drinking water costs ~£2 per tonne.
You would have a very hard time fitting enough on a wagon to make it worthwhile.

 

[Waddon]

Yes, but water is more of an essential service than a pay per ton freight item, as the need seems to exist and the government is unlikely to allow the south east to run out of drinking water, it may be a (subsidised) option for the short term perhaps?

 

[Hydro]

I do remember some years ago that water was delivered by road tanker to drought hit areas of Yorkshire IIRC. Quite a large undertaking, there was an article in one of the trucking magazines. Halifax area springs to mind.

 

[WatcherZero]

There are some disjointed national grid actions going on, for example their building a mains pipe connecting Liverpool/North Wales and Manchester/Lake District supplies.

 

[87015]

Lots of bottled drinking water is moved about by train (or at least was) including a massive Daventry/Coventry - Dollands Moor set of cargowaggons to/from the continent. Similar trains ran to the Gloucester area (MoD Ashchurch IIRC?) during the floods a few years back so it can be done as a short term measure.

 

[WatcherZero]

And how much does a bottle of water cost compared to a glass of water from a tap? Now shower in it, wash your baby in it, do your dishes, drinking water, etc....

 

[tdg1986]

As someone who works for a water company there are still tankering operations using road tankers fairly frequently, but only in emergency situations. Water is very expensive to transport because of its weight and you'd be surprised how much water people use. Typically it's cheapest and simplest for water companies to pump water into underground reservoirs on the top of hills overnight when there is plenty of electricity capacity (and so it's cheaper) and allow it to gravitate back to customers during the day when electricity is more expensive.

There are some disjointed national grid actions going on, for example their building a mains pipe connecting Liverpool/North Wales and Manchester/Lake District supplies.

Those two examples are not current actions but have been in the ground for around a hundred years.

As for transporting water by rail, it would depend upon how close a current or new source would be to a rail line and how close you would be able to take it to where it's required. You'd probably still be pumping a lot of water from freight yards to storage reservoirs as otherwise you'd have to construct track to wherever the water was required and by the time you've paid for that you may as well put a new pipeline in the ground which doesn't have such high recurring costs.

What the discussion around the national water grid is more around is using current sources better. For example, Kielder water is much larger than it needs to be. Is there a way that this water could be fed south towards Liverpool or Leeds, therefore allowing the current sources in these areas to be used further south, and so on and so on.

 

[michael769]

Given that (to date) no hosepipe bans have had to be put in place, we (taxpayers) are a long way away from needing to bear the huge costs of shipping water (which is very heavy and bulky) across the country.

As always the media is overstating the issue. Yes it looks likely that some parts of the country will have to face hosepipe bans - but I struggle to see how we can justify taxpayers paying to ship water around the country just so people don't have to carry buckets out to wash their cars or watering cans around their gardens.

Once we get the point that people are talking about reducing the supply pressure and.or standpipes - then yes it may be time to consider something like that - but we are a very long way away from that. Remember that some parts of the country had hosepipe bans several summers in a row in the 1990s without anything so serious being needed.

 

[DarloRich]

I recall them building a Tees - Ouse pipeline at some point in the mid 90's to allow transfers of water from Kielder to the south via various rivers.

 

[tsr]

Any given siding at Ardingly would be about 1.5km at most from Ardingly's reservoir. In a severe water shortage, I am sure trains carrying water could be brought into use there, and a relatively short pipeline could be constructed. Perhaps this is a good example of a possible recipient reservoir in the South-East.

 

[bolli]

Don't Volvic and Evian transport bottled water into this country through the Channel Tunnel?

(Obviously quite expensive bottled water)

 

[Chris M]

Once we get the point that people are talking about reducing the supply pressure and.or standpipes - then yes it may be time to consider something like that - but we are a very long way away from that. Remember that some parts of the country had hosepipe bans several summers in a row in the 1990s without anything so serious being needed.

Quite so, but is it not best to plan how it could be done now? If it does become necessary/worthwhile then the planning wont need to be done in a rush.

As for reservoirs close to railways, until the 1960s the Cheddar Valley Line ran a couple of hundred yards at most from Cheddar Reservoir and so might have been ideal. Alas the line was lifted and subsequently built on.

 

[73001]

Those two examples are not current actions but have been in the ground for around a hundred years.

I think he means this... allowing the two supplies to be interworked.

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...ink-liverpool-with-manchester-64375-21092715/

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a similar shortage in and around 1992 or so , where train wshing was forced to be suspended in Kent , luckily there was a BR owned well at Dover , so NSE came up with a cracking idea to pump water into 2 x 45T clean TTA tanks which were ferried as required to Ramsgate depot , emptied into the wash plant and some semblance of "clean" trains maintained.

The RFD Tinsley 47 fleet was also unable to be washed at depot in and around the same time , so arrangements were made as far as possible in non drought locations.

 

[WatcherZero]

100m litres, thats what 1500 tank wagons a day. And thats just Liverpool-Manchester, 33 miles. Imagine what would be required nationally.

 

[merlodlliw]

There are some disjointed national grid actions going on, for example their building a mains pipe connecting Liverpool/North Wales and Manchester/Lake District supplies.

A newer idea up here is to feed the river dee from catchment areas instead of pipelines.

 

[WatcherZero]

If the South actually recycled their water they wouldnt need anywhere near as much, instead they just dump it in the Thames or out to sea when their done with it.

 

[142094]

Can't remember how much it is but Severn Trent used to lose a whopping amount due to leaks from pipelines.

Thankfully we have Kielder and a few other reservoirs up here, so no drought for us. I'm just off to water the garden, clean the car and have a cup of tea...

 

[merlodlliw]

And how much does a bottle of water cost compared to a glass of water from a tap? Now shower in it, wash your baby in it, do your dishes, drinking water, etc....

I have always considered bottled water to be a complete rip off, in many instances especially in Wrexham Dee Valley area, the water is far purer out of the tap, than pay £1 for half a pint in a plastic bottle.
I recall Coca Colas venture into bottled water using Thames Water Company taps.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thankfully we have Kielder and a few other reservoirs up here, so no drought for us. I'm just off to water the garden, clean the car and have a cup of tea...

In the dark!?

 

[lincolnshire]

As some one else said earlier 1992 drought ( knew it was a bit ago) Yorkshire water was using road tankers to move water from Barmby on The Marsh water treatment works, an intake point off the river Derwent before it enters the river Ouse to elsewhere in Yorkshire. This operation run for weeks on a 24 hour basis, as soon as it was filled it was on the road and the next one in for filling, it fair knackered up the road between there and the M62.
The Hull to Selby railway line is about 1 mile away, you could fill tanks up parked on the line during the night as there is no service along here at night, the line closes about 23-00 till 06-00 approx.
Another time was the idea of exporting water by supertanker from Tyneside ( water from Keilder) to the middle east as it would be cheaper at that time than getting it from desalination plants etc.
So what we going to do this time then?

 

[HSTEd]

Didn't they rig up a temporary pipeline on the hard shoulder of the A1 at one point?

Either way, massive desalination and NeWater production (the later for industrial use or whatever) is far cheaper than a huge water grid that might not even solve the problem in the long term.
Better to take the one time hit to our water bills to never have another hosepipe ban.
It also frees up the equivalent of the river severn for agricultural use.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I recall them building a Tees - Ouse pipeline at some point in the mid 90's to allow transfers of water from Kielder to the south via various rivers.

The reservoir was built to serve the water heavy industries that were to be set up in tee-side. Recession hit, none of them got built and it was left with nothing to serve. It now serves Yorkshire via pipeline funded by Yorkshire Water.



You can not just move water from the north to the south.
The south east is mostly limestone and alkaline rocks so the water is alkaline therefore the rivers are.

The north is mostly built on igneous rocks and thus provides acidic water. So suddenly putting acidic water into an alkaline ecosystem can have some serious consequences to the ecology of the area.

 

[Chris M]

luckily there was a BR owned well at Dover

That's reminded me that millions of gallons of water are being pumped out of the Severn Tunnel daily. If the local area doesn't need it all, it would seem to make a good source. It can't be the only tunnel that needs constant pumping either.

As for a destination, the Waterloo-Staines-Windsor line runs very close to some very big reservoirs in west London, and in north London the Lee Valley Lines actually bisect a reservoir before running adjacent/very close to a couple of others.

 

[Pumbaa]

Didn't they rig up a temporary pipeline on the hard shoulder of the A1 at one point?

Either way, massive desalination and NeWater production (the later for industrial use or whatever) is far cheaper than a huge water grid that might not even solve the problem in the long term..

A very raised eyebrow from me on that one! The only country who has cracked desalinisation to a near affordable level is Saudi Arabia, their biggest plant can handle over a billion litres a day.

And it all goes straight to getting oil out of the ground, not a drop passes peoples lips... :-x

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's reminded me that millions of gallons of water are being pumped out of the Severn Tunnel daily. If the local area doesn't need it all, it would seem to make a good source. It can't be the only tunnel that needs constant pumping either.

You'd be surprised at how much water needs to be pumped out of the London Underground system - just pray that the next time there is a big trains stranded for hours incident that the pumps don't trip out as well...

 

[HSTEd]

A very raised eyebrow from me on that one! The only country who has cracked desalinisation to a near affordable level is Saudi Arabia, their biggest plant can handle over a billion litres a day.

And it all goes straight to getting oil out of the ground, not a drop passes peoples lips... :-x

Apparently desal is now reaching a level where companies manage 30p/cubic metre.
That sounds like quite a lot but even if no resevoirs can be retired or converted to serve a more public amenity (ie. watersports) use the average combined water and sewage bill would be roughly 15% greater.
And that cost premium is decreasing all the time.

 

[WatcherZero]

Desalination would be an ongoing cost though, finishing a water national grid would be a one off cost that would last a century.

 

[michael769]

Can't remember how much it is but Severn Trent used to lose a whopping amount due to leaks from pipelines.

All the water companies have done a great job over the last 10 years dealing with this issue. Indeed that is the main reason why it has taken close to 18month for very little rain before hosepipe bans have had to be seriously considered.

Thankfully we have Kielder and a few other reservoirs up here, so no drought for us. I'm just off to water the garden, clean the car and have a cup of tea...

And like Scotland you have just had the wettest winter in close to 150years - ironically the gap in available water supplies between the North and South is at the widest it has ever been. I understand that Scottish Water is reporting that supplies are at 100% of capacity at the moment.