Waterloo inner suburban longer trains?

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DynamicSpirit

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Anyone know what's happening about the proposed 10-car trains for the stopping trains out of Waterloo?

I'm curious because I'd heard vague proposals to replace the 8-car trains with 10-car ones, but nothing specific. But the last couple of weeks I've noticed that platforms at several stations (including Vauxhall, Queens Road) are actually being extended. Does that mean that longer trains are definitely on the way soon? And if so will they be completely new trains of just new additional carriages?
 
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gswindale

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The Windsor line will be getting longer trains. These will be the class 458 mixed with carriages from the former Gatwick Express class 460 units.

The Reading line loses out and gets the class 450 to replace the 458s.
 

A-driver

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A while ago SWT were set to take the 456s from southern and stick them between 455s but it was deemed impractical due to a few shunts which can't be done with non walk through units. I would think it unlikely for them to replace 455s as they have been re fitted fairly recently.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Ah. Is that only the Windsor line or will the lines through Wimbledon get longer trains too?

And is there a link that explains what the different classes of trains are? I commute enough to know the different types of train on SWT from sight/travelling on them, but I'm not familiar with the names '450', '458' etc.
 

jopsuk

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Ah. Is that only the Windsor line or will the lines through Wimbledon get longer trains too?

And is there a link that explains what the different classes of trains are? I commute enough to know the different types of train on SWT from sight/travelling on them, but I'm not familiar with the names '450', '458' etc.
Wikipedia is pretty good- here's the rolling stock section for South West Trains.

Roughly though, on SWT out of Waterloo:
455s are the red trains
450s are the blue trains
458s are the "local" white trains with sloping fronts
444s are the "long distance" white trains to Portsmouth, Southampton and Weymouth
158s and 159s are the diesel long distance trains to Salisbury and Exeter
 

swt_passenger

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A while ago SWT were set to take the 456s from southern and stick them between 455s but it was deemed impractical due to a few shunts which can't be done with non walk through units. I would think it unlikely for them to replace 455s as they have been re fitted fairly recently.
Whether deemed impractical or not, 455/456s in multiple is still shown as the solution in the March 2012 update of the CP4 enhancement plan, and of course the contract to extend all the mainline side suburban platforms has just started.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah. Is that only the Windsor line or will the lines through Wimbledon get longer trains too?
It's the 'Windsor side' suburban operations that are getting 10 car trains, not just the 'Windsor line'.

Basically it is all the routes that the 450/5s currently operate on, such as the Hounslow loop, and the Weybridge via Staines, plus a few more odd bits, because 36 x 458/5s will replace only 28 x 450/5s.

(The 450/5s are the ones that had the first class and some seating removed - they'll get it back prior to transfer to the Reading services.)
SWT said:
Rolling stock and service information
• The additional carriages will enable trains on the following routes to be lengthened from 8 to 10 cars:
o Waterloo-Windsor & Eton (Riverside),
o Waterloo-Weybridge via Brentford and Staines,
o Waterloo-Hounslow via both Richmond and Brentford.
• This will be achieved through the introduction of 60 Class 460 vehicles which will be combined with the existing Class 458 stock to form 36x5-car trains
• An internal cascade will provide two additional Reading services in the morning and evening and one further Hounslow peak service into London Waterloo. It will also further lengthen seven South West Trains mainline services:
Morning peak
o Southampton Airport Parkway to Waterloo (8 car to 12 car)
o Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo via Eastleigh (5 car to 10 car)
o Southampton Central to Waterloo (4 car to 5 car)

Evening peak
o Waterloo to Poole (5 car to 8 car)
o Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (5 car to 8 car)
o Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (8 car to 10 car)
o Waterloo to Alton (8 car to 12 car)

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extracapacity.aspx
The mainline side suburban stations (ie all those with 455 operated services via Wimbledon) are also now getting their platform lengthening for ten cars, the project is up and running but about a year behind the Windsor side. But as of now the rolling stock solution hasn't been confirmed.
 
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I quite like the idea of a 455/456 combo where each Driving car is mounted cab outwards at the end of a 455 making a 5-car unit that you can still walk through, although I do think that it would take a bit of re-engineering for that to work!
 

swt_passenger

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I quite like the idea of a 455/456 combo where each Driving car is mounted cab outwards at the end of a 455 making a 5-car unit that you can still walk through, although I do think that it would take a bit of re-engineering for that to work!
Not that far fetched a solution really - and there must have also been a reason behind that trial they did a couple of years ago with re-arranging a couple of 455s into 3 car units. There's more than a few ways of mixing the combined fleet up into 3, 4 and 5 car sets, and running 5+5s or 3+3+4s.

All highly expensive hence is it improbable? Maybe though the easiest solution is to provide the necessary infrastructure changes at the shunt locations so that drivers can safely walk round the trains. Seems to be OK for SN to run 455s and 456s together, so it obviously isn't impossible.
 

jopsuk

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Isn't one car a trailer and the other a motor? And running assymetric units would be rather onerous for the depot to always ensure the pairs were "correct". But SWT run Guards on these routes, and like the guards to be able to move through the train- I believe there isn't any inter unit access for passengers (unlike 317s)? Has everything from when Strathclyde converted their 318s to flat fronts, or when Southern took the connectors off their 455s, been disposed of? One solution would be to simply give the 456s a compatible corridor cab- then they could run in 4+2+4 or 4+4+2 interchangably.

Or as a further idea- form them up as permanent ten car units... 456 cars on the ends, perhaps even remove the intermediate cabs other than having a mid-train Guard's compartment.
 
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swt_passenger

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it would rather- and a fair bit of depot care to always form them up as walkthrough pairs. Also, isn't one car a motor and the other a trailer?
I suppose it all depends how much money you throw at the job. Of course these trains can't really be considered to have a long remaining life, so something as off the wall as recabbing them would be out of the question - but what about converting them into 455 trailers? Could a 455 motor car deal with an extra trailer - I've no idea really.

I suppose give it a year or two and we'll probably find out...
 

Robbies

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The Windsor line will be getting longer trains. These will be the class 458 mixed with carriages from the former Gatwick Express class 460 units.

The Reading line loses out and gets the class 450 to replace the 458s.
Personally, being someone that lives just off the Reading line I would prefer to travel on the 450 as it gives a smoother ride than the 458 when I have travelled into London when a 450 has been used.

I know from past experience if I get the train at about 6:30am as I had to for week to go on a course in London, I got more sleep on the 450 which was used to replace the normal 458 during the weeks traing than I did on the 458. On the 458, I am lucky if am still sleeping when I get to Richmond. On the day the 450 was used, I slept all the way from Martins Heron when I got on the train to Vauxhall. That to me shows the difference in comfort between the two trains.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Wikipedia is pretty good- here's the rolling stock section for South West Trains.

Roughly though, on SWT out of Waterloo:
455s are the red trains
450s are the blue trains
458s are the "local" white trains with sloping fronts
444s are the "long distance" white trains to Portsmouth, Southampton and Weymouth
158s and 159s are the diesel long distance trains to Salisbury and Exeter
Now that's the kind of language I understand. Thx jopsuk, that's very clear.
 

150222

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I quite like the idea of a 455/456 combo where each Driving car is mounted cab outwards at the end of a 455 making a 5-car unit that you can still walk through, although I do think that it would take a bit of re-engineering for that to work!
Could they be semi-permanantly coupled so as to make the entire formation walk through?

E.g: 456+455+455+455+455 Two trains coupled with un-couple buttons removed 455+455+455+455+456.
 
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