Waterloo International: Originally intended to be permanent or not?

[Mikey C]

Thus video from 2 years ago looks around the old station, and shows how much of it has been untouched since Eurostar left

 

[Royston Vasey]

Not correct. In the early years UK passport controls were normally conducted on board the train with two UK Immigration Officers starting at each end of the train and working towards each other. These Officers were based at Waterloo and travelled out to Paris (or Brussels) as passengers, and then worked back officially on a UK bound train. Each train had a special interview room and a small office for them to use. As a back up arrangement, there were also passport control desks at Waterloo which could be used if for any reason no Immigration Officers were on board a train. So, at one time, the first few arrivals at Waterloo each morning had their passports checked there (because that saved putting Officers in hotels in Paris or Brussels overnight) with later trains cleared on board because the timings allowed staff to get to Paris or Brussels to join them. Breakdowns, weather and French industrial action were also factors that sometimes prevented on board clearance, because UK staff were in the wrong place. So a control at Waterloo could be operated instead, almost at a moment’s notice.

...

Consequently, a decision was taken to move to pre-clearance with staff having their passports checked by UK staff in Paris and Brussels (who live there permanently for up to 3 years). So you don’t normally see on board clearance any more, though as I understand it the protocols are still in place.

Fair enough, that;s interesting, well I can understand on this account why pre-clearance at origin has been used for the vast majority of the time of Eurostar operation.

 

[Ianno87]

Are there any photos of this customs area?

I think its the big car park/Motorail area alongside the northbound platform - a kind of makeshift 'holding pen' type arrangement into which to dump a Eurostar-load of passengers if needs be without being let loose straight onto the streets of London.

 

[backontrack]

I think its the big car park/Motorail area alongside the northbound platform - a kind of makeshift 'holding pen' type arrangement into which to dump a Eurostar-load of passengers if needs be without being let loose straight onto the streets of London.

I see, yeah that looks like it. Thanks.

 

[Tio Terry]

I was part of the design team that built WIT, design life was 100 years, I guess that counts as a permanent structure.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's fascinating. Have you got any more info this?

It is all in Modern Railways from the late 80s and early 90s.

 

[MotCO]

Yes it did - it was the emergency terminal for "trapped" trains , and a couple of trains were diverted there in my day in 1996-1997 (dates cannot be recalled now) - helped out by organising an emergency 313 shuttle Clapham - Willesden to clear (confused) passengers. A one off.

What do you mean by 'trapped trains'?

 

[Busaholic]

I've never been on Eurostar, my plans for two dates in 1994 and a few years later having been thwarted. However, I do remember being eternally grateful that family illness prevented that second abortive trip, which would have been to/from Marseilles, as the train I'd been booked on spent several hours on Sunday night/Monday morning trapped somewhere on that spur line/curve in the Clapham area with all passengers onboard. It got a lot of adverse publicity at the time, but don't recall exactly when it was. I'd imagine any later services would have had to divert to either Victoria or Kensington Olympia.

 

[Helvellyn]

If I recall I think the original plan was to have a High Speed Line to North London and to look at using an expanded King's Cross as the international terminus, essentially building between King's Cross and St Pancras. But as we are so good at twiddling our thumbs in this country with infrastructure projects there was a need to build a terminus in South London that could be accessed using "classic" lines.

I believe Waterloo was selected as due to its size additional platforms could be added in the main trainshed (I think the cab road was removed to create two platforms, with two small loco bays extended back, and the staff buildings between the two parts of the station were demolished to also create additional platform space (with the "New" Raft built over platforms 1-10). So Waterloo went from 21 to 19 platforms for domestic use but there was the capacity to do this. Plus the Windsor Lines were more lightly used so were essentially reduced to three tracks to provide the Windsor Reversible for use by Eurostar to the new flying junction at Battersea.

You can get a rough idea of the pre-Eurostar in this diagram, although obviously there had been a few changes beforehand! Access to the Waterloo & City line also had to be changed - previously there was a hoist that brought vehicles up to sidings on the Windsor side but this had to be moved to the over side of the station (meaning all vehicles are brought in/taken away by road now as well as rail access was lost).

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2017/post-5198-0-84799500-1484566323.jpg

There wasn't really any other suitable terminus that could have been adapted to add five new international platforms, of the length required.

The one thing with the works to bring the International Terminal back into use is that the original plans were to see the whole existing concourse area opposite these platforms dropped to ground level. This would have seen the Victory Arch entrance (Entrance/Exit 5) opened out (all steps removed) with a decent circulating area at ground level to and then plenty of escalators up to the platforms and existing concourse.

To sidetrack slightly does anyone know if the L&SWR had completed its rebuilding of Waterloo (stopped by the First World War) whether it would have still had 21 platforms or got even more? The diagram above shows offices extending past the Victory Arch, so if the rebuild had been completed I wonder if the offices between Platforms 15 & 16 (as were) would have been moved further out to form an exterior wall, in effect on York Road, giving a completely open trainshed over all the platforms.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What do you mean by 'trapped trains'?

Trains unable to access Waterloo , but were in the UK .....and past Ashford.

What were you thinking - rodent catching appliances ?

 

[whhistle]

This is why the Class 373 Eurostar trains were built and equipped for 750V dc third rail operation

In the refurbishment, was this power facility removed?
Just thinking about XC physically removing the parts for tilt on the 221s they have.

 

[janahan]

In the refurbishment, was this power facility removed?
Just thinking about XC physically removing the parts for tilt on the 221s they have.

At the very least the contact shoes for the third rail were removed upon the move to St Pancras. This is because it was found that if a train had its shoes down it conflicted and caused problems with lineside equipment of some sorts in france. Hence during the waterloo times, there was a concrete block on the french side of the tunnel. If a shoe was not retracted, the contrete block woudl knock it off.

Upon the move to St Pancras, they were very quickly removed.

 

[takno]

At the very least the contact shoes for the third rail were removed upon the move to St Pancras. This is because it was found that if a train had its shoes down it conflicted and caused problems with lineside equipment of some sorts in france. Hence during the waterloo times, there was a concrete block on the french side of the tunnel. If a shoe was not retracted, the contrete block woudl knock it off.

Upon the move to St Pancras, they were very quickly removed.

Very quickly as in just leaving them down the next time they entered France?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Very quickly as in just leaving them down the next time they entered France?

160 km/h to be precise

 

[Lockwood]

Hence during the waterloo times, there was a concrete block on the french side of the tunnel. If a shoe was not retracted, the contrete block woudl knock it off.

Sounds an expensive (and cheap at the same time) way to solve the problem.

They couldn't have put some tripcock tester style thing to detect shopped shoes?

 

[Taunton]

To sidetrack slightly does anyone know if the L&SWR had completed its rebuilding of Waterloo (stopped by the First World War) whether it would have still had 21 platforms or got even more? The diagram above shows offices extending past the Victory Arch, so if the rebuild had been completed I wonder if the offices between Platforms 15 & 16 (as were) would have been moved further out to form an exterior wall.

Ian Allan (the man himself), in his autobiography, wrote of working in those old offices during WW 2, which in the end were demolished in the 1950s and replaced with the commercial development along York Road (itself now about to be redeveloped again). They must have been Victorian and tremendously dilapadated. He said that rats used to run round overnight, and gnaw at the spines of all the working timetables, which somehow had a particularly tasty form of glue.

 

[infobleep]

The 'domestication project' also cuts back the buffer stops by around 60m. This creates a large new circulating and waiting area for 'Windsor Lines' services that will mostly be relocated to these ex international platforms. That should help relieve crowding in the main part of the concourse which can quickly become particularly severe during the evening peak, especially if there's any disruption at this, the UKs busiest station. The new concourse area will also gain its own connecting passageways to the London Underground station complex below the main terminal, relieving other access routes. These passages used to emerge in the old 'Orchestra pit' in front of the international platforms at a lower level but were closed off when Eurostar moved to St Pancras.

Why was the station allowed to be unused for so long? Was it due to the enormous cost of making it suitable once more for domestic services, that they were hesitant to spend the money? We did have a recession after all.

 

[MarkyT]

Why was the station allowed to be unused for so long? Was it due to the enormous cost of making it suitable once more for domestic services, that they were hesitant to spend the money? We did have a recession after all.

I think it was complicated by not being owned by Network Rail, and the Government even commissioned studies after Eurostar moved out to consider redeveloping the site for other uses; it was not even certain it would remain a rail facility, but sense prevailed eventually. The work to convert the terminal is indeed rather complex and wide ranging, from the obvious visible building alterations to track and signalling changes in the throat. That all had to be fitted into the national programme, detailed designs developed, suppliers identified and contracts tendered and agreed. It should not have taken over a decade though, which is quite shocking in retrospect, but the time taken for the Government to make the decision to go for it in the first place was the most significant component.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why was the station allowed to be unused for so long? Was it due to the enormous cost of making it suitable once more for domestic services, that they were hesitant to spend the money? We did have a recession after all.

The extra rolling stock to make full use of it has only just been delivered. I expect throughout the time the full timetable could be run from 19 platforms, with all stock in use, then the treasury would have said no.
I can’t think of any other examples of 5 spare platforms being brought into use without the services to use them...

 

[DelW]

Access to the Waterloo & City line also had to be changed - previously there was a hoist that brought vehicles up to sidings on the Windsor side but this had to be moved to the over side of the station (meaning all vehicles are brought in/taken away by road now as well as rail access was lost).

To be pedantic, the hoist wasn't moved, it was dismantled and (presumably) scrapped. Waterloo and City stock now has to be lifted in or out of the depot by a road crane via an opening alongside Spur Road.

 

[infobleep]

The extra rolling stock to make full use of it has only just been delivered. I expect throughout the time the full timetable could be run from 19 platforms, with all stock in use, then the treasury would have said no.
I can’t think of any other examples of 5 spare platforms being brought into use without the services to use them...

Are there stations that have been built without rolling stock.

In my opinion and it's only my opinion here, they should have had additional rolling stock much sooner. That is the government's doing.

Did anyone here ever regularly travel on the 18.39 Waterloo to Poole when it was just 5 coaches? I use to do it semi regularly from Clapham Junction, when I use to commute from Harrow. It was a train that connected off an hourly Harrow train and one that connected with a train to Guildford, at Woking. If there had been an 18.52 to Guildford I wouldn't have been on the 5 coach train but there wasn't and isn't.

So in my opinion rolling stock had been overdue when it came.

 

[pdeaves]

Are there stations that have been built without rolling stock.

Historically, yes. See, for example (though possibly going off on a tangent), under the heading "Which stations have… been used but never had trains?" on page http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/trivia.shtm

 

[jimbo99]

Some time during the 1990s, I was diverted to Olympia.

I was on the penultimate service out of Paris in "Leisure First" or whatever it was. We slowed down around Ashford and crawled to Beckenham Junction. By this time we were already 2 hours late. We were told there was a fire at a Brixton signal box. Passengers asked if they could get off at Beckenham Junction (at least part of the train was alongside a platform) and this was refused. In First we were given a bottle of water and there was an annoucement that they had run of refreshments. After an hour or so at BJ, we crawled to Olympia with various stops on the way, including one to pick up a BR driver (or perhaps he got on at BJ, not sure).

From memory, it was around 2am when we arrived at Olympia. The station was locked and the lights were off. The entire train was disembarked through a single door with two staff holding torches. They broke down a wooden gate so people could get out onto the street. It took a very long time given congestion on the platform. The police were called following a fight. They cordoned off part of the road to accommodate the crowds. A further Eurostar was immediately behind ours. Taxis were ordered, but it was chaos. The Eurostar staff disappeared and I saw the SNCF driver sitting on the platform in tears. A number of French people were completely confused and hadn't a clue where they were or what was happening.

Order was resumed when some bloke from the taxi company appeared. He had a megaphone. He ordered people into groups based on where they were going to. From memory it was 4ish by the time I got away - 6 hours after I should have arrived at Waterloo.

I shared a taxi with immigration officers. They said something about they should have done some checks, but they decided against it because of the public mood. I suppose this was the time when they would normally check on the train and they hadn't done so.

 

[TheSeeker]

Here's a shot of my old passport when the checks were done on the train. I got a stamp as a colleague said "You'd better check him, he's Welsh".
View media item 2941

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there stations that have been built without rolling stock.

In my opinion and it's only my opinion here, they should have had additional rolling stock much sooner. That is the government's doing.

Did anyone here ever regularly travel on the 18.39 Waterloo to Poole when it was just 5 coaches? I use to do it semi regularly from Clapham Junction, when I use to commute from Harrow. It was a train that connected off an hourly Harrow train and one that connected with a train to Guildford, at Woking. If there had been an 18.52 to Guildford I wouldn't have been on the 5 coach train but there wasn't and isn't.

So in my opinion rolling stock had been overdue when it came.

I don't think anyone would disagree about the effect of DfT delays on the time taken to organise the additional stock. As it turned out the stretched 458/5s and the 456s (providing 108 vehicles) were a complete fudge compared to what SWT had actually tendered for in 2009, for delivery in Dec 2011. This was originally a CP4 project, and it was planned for 120 - 180 Desiro vehicles compatible with the existing fleet but in 5 car formation. In the early 2009 enhancements delivery plans, all the suburban and Reading platform extensions that you'll be familiar with, and Waterloo International integration with the main station, were all supposedly about to start. The whole thing eventually ran about 5 or 6 years late, and that's assuming this December sees practical completion of P20-P24.

I think both NR and SWT were equally unable to commit, because in reality DfT wouldn't agree funding to start what they (ie DfT) had actually announced in the CP4 HLOS. The TOC would see no evidence of platforms to operate the trains they were being asked to order, and NR could see no sign of trains that they were about to build platforms for until DfT said yes. Result stalemate.

 

[Helvellyn]

I don't think anyone would disagree about the effect of DfT delays on the time taken to organise the additional stock. As it turned out the stretched 458/5s and the 456s (providing 108 vehicles) were a complete fudge compared to what SWT had actually tendered for in 2009, for delivery in Dec 2011. This was originally a CP4 project, and it was planned for 120 - 180 Desiro vehicles compatible with the existing fleet but in 5 car formation. In the early 2009 enhancements delivery plans, all the suburban and Reading platform extensions that you'll be familiar with, and Waterloo International integration with the main station, were all supposedly about to start. The whole thing eventually ran about 5 or 6 years late, and that's assuming this December sees practical completion of P20-P24.

The 10-car railway was planned even earlier - the original Class 450 Desiro plans were for 100 4-car 450/0 units for outer suburban services and 32 5-car 450/2 units for inner suburban Windsor Line services. But the the Strategic Rail Authority stepped in and wouldn't approve the plans, so 120 vehicles were diverted to Silverlink/Central Trains and the 30 350/1 units were born. Meanwhile SWT was left with 110 4-car 450 units and was later allowed to acquire an additional 17 units giving a fleet of 127 (28 of which were later modified to the 450/5 High Capacity specification for use on the Windsor Lines).