Watford Junction to East Croydon service converted to overground and re-extended?

[Bucephalus]

I think it would be great if the Milton Keynes to East Croydon service was reinstated and also made more frequent than hourly - possibly by being converted to Overground. I think if popular, it could take pressure off Euston whilst we wait for HS2. In addition, is there any possibility of a semi-fast Service?

I also think it that a one-seat service from Birmingham New Street to East Croydon (obviously not run by Overground) could be very, very interesting.

There's a lot of technical stuff that I don't know so feel free to pull this idea apart !!

 

[JonathanH]

I also think it that a one-seat service from Birmingham New Street to East Croydon (obviously not run by Overground) could be very, very interesting.

Interesting in what way? Would it be the best use of capacity, given the connections that already exist using Euston and St Pancras? How would it be pathed in addition to the existing services on the Birmingham to Coventry corridor? Where would it stop between Coventry and Watford? If it runs fast, how would it cross to the slow lines? How would it fit on the West London Line?

In addition, is there any possibility of a semi-fast Service?

No. Crossing moves at Balham are pretty much a no-no. The West London Line can't really accommodate a non-stopping service.

I think it would be great if the Milton Keynes to East Croydon service was reinstated

The benefit of cancelling it north of Watford Junction is fairly clear by looking at the much more balanced timetable that London Northwestern Railway has been able to introduce on the slow line services.

This recent thread summarises some of the problems of trying to channel travellers via the West London Line - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cross-london-services.273840/#post-6946198

 

[Bucephalus]

Interesting in what way? Would it be the best use of capacity, given the connections that already exist using Euston and St Pancras? How would it be pathed in addition to the existing services on the Birmingham to Coventry corridor? Where would it stop between Coventry and Watford? If it runs fast, how would it cross to the slow lines? How would it fit on the West London Line?

...

I was thinking initially of taking one new street to Euston train away each hour - but immediately I can see how that would be disastrous!

I'm glad that has already been another thread on this. I'll have a good look at that

 

[edwin_m]

If it was Overground then it would most likely be put on the DC lines, with all the extra stops and no possibility of continuing beyond Watford Junction.

 

[JonathanH]

If it was Overground then it would most likely be put on the DC lines, with all the extra stops and no possibility of continuing beyond Watford Junction.

How would it get to Clapham Junction from the DC lines?

Kensal Green Reversing Siding is the obvious answer but would be a distinctly odd way to run the service.

 

[edwin_m]

How would it get to Clapham Junction from the DC lines?

Kensal Green Reversing Siding is the obvious answer but would be a distinctly odd way to run the service.

Yes, there's that issue too. The point I was trying (not very well) to make was that the Overground is marketed as a simple turn-up-and-go service, and something that runs less frequently and misses some stops wouldn't really fit the brand. Also TfL don't really want to be picking up responsibility for services that run so far beyond their boundary without a very good reason.

 

[87015]

Interesting in what way? Would it be the best use of capacity, given the connections that already exist using Euston and St Pancras? How would it be pathed in addition to the existing services on the Birmingham to Coventry corridor? Where would it stop between Coventry and Watford? If it runs fast, how would it cross to the slow lines? How would it fit on the West London Line?


No. Crossing moves at Balham are pretty much a no-no. The West London Line can't really accommodate a non-stopping service.


The benefit of cancelling it north of Watford Junction is fairly clear by looking at the much more balanced timetable that London Northwestern Railway has been able to introduce on the slow line services.

This recent thread summarises some of the problems of trying to channel travellers via the West London Line - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cross-london-services.273840/#post-6946198

Have you made that up again? The 2022 rewrite included GTR to Mk - it was a bodge to cut it back and whatever “balance” wasn’t affected

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you made that up again? The 2022 rewrite included GTR to Mk - it’s bungled the LNR service rehashing it to Watford hence the off pattern bits around it as it didn’t work.

Which bits of LNR has it bungled? The LNR service on the south WCML is now very close to perfect clockface. The only part of the base service that isn't (aside from the slightly odd evening service) is that one fast has a call at Watford and one doesn't, which means a couple of stations end up with a 28-32 split, but the Southern wouldn't affect the fast lines.

 

[JonathanH]

Have you made that up again?

Yes, but what would be the purpose of speculation if some things weren't made up?

I think it would however be helpful though if you could say where the Southern Milton Keynes service fits in the 2022 timetable north of Watford Junction and whether it would just run in front or behind the London Northwestern services. At best it looks like unnecessary duplication as on the face of it as the London Northwestern quarter hourly arrangement from Euston seems to be a good feature of the timetable to the outside view.

Presumably the apparent duplication between Watford and Milton Keynes didn't go unnoticed by Southern and the DfT when they were looking for ways to concentrate Southern's rolling stock on its core services?

 

[Mgameing123]

I think it would be great if the Milton Keynes to East Croydon service was reinstated and also made more frequent than hourly - possibly by being converted to Overground. I think if popular, it could take pressure off Euston whilst we wait for HS2. In addition, is there any possibility of a semi-fast Service?

I also think it that a one-seat service from Birmingham New Street to East Croydon (obviously not run by Overground) could be very, very interesting.

There's a lot of technical stuff that I don't know so feel free to pull this idea apart !!

Well this service would work best if it goes to Gatwick Airport.

 

[zwk500]

Well this service would work best if it goes to Gatwick Airport.

No it wouldn't, going Slow to Fast on the Brighton line is a nightmare anywhere north of Stoat's Nest Junction.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The service is poor and needs to be improved. I absolutely would love to see the WLL have the same frequency as the ELL, but failing that I have wondered whether extending the WLL down into Southern-Land will be possible.

I think extending the service to Birmingham would require more intercity spec stock. Does anyone know if the only Gatwick to Rugby service had a trolley onboard? Sadly I don’t have access to my 1998 timetable for that route right mow

 

[cle]

I've often thought this would be better as a standardized 2tph service from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction - as a WLL / LO branded route.

It could still run down the slows (semis) between Watford and Wembley. With calls at both Harrow and Wembley itself, it doesn't really need more speed than the 378s offer, and they have pans of course. I suspect it would be a difference of seconds vs a 350.

And LNR do call at Bushey (which this probably can't) - which might help even out some flighting.

From Shepherds Bush to CJ, it should be indistinguishable from the Stratford services and it feels like a singular metro service. Try use the same platforms at CJ too. One line with two branches, not too different to the ELL.

 

[Jimini]

Does anyone know if the only Gatwick to Rugby service had a trolley onboard? Sadly I don’t have access to my 1998 timetable for that route right mow

I used to use it weekly from Clapham Junction to Northampton and back around that time, and I can’t recall ever seeing catering on board (granted it was 26 years ago!).

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder if demand for 2 tph would be higher* with an easy connection from Old Oak Common to Willesden Junction and fast line platforms at Willesden Junction. Clapham Junction doesn't have a direct service to the Elizabeth line or future HS2 stations, and it's the same for stations north of Harrow & Wealdstone. The problem with that theory is that if it's possible, increasing Clapham Junction – Stratford and Watford Junction – Euston services would provide more services to Willesden Junction (but not to the other side of it) from all of the same stations without needing new platforms to be built.

*I don't mean that it's necessarily low now

 

[Mgameing123]

I've often thought this would be better as a standardized 2tph service from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction - as a WLL / LO branded route.

It could still run down the slows (semis) between Watford and Wembley. With calls at both Harrow and Wembley itself, it doesn't really need more speed than the 378s offer, and they have pans of course. I suspect it would be a difference of seconds vs a 350.

And LNR do call at Bushey (which this probably can't) - which might help even out some flighting.

From Shepherds Bush to CJ, it should be indistinguishable from the Stratford services and it feels like a singular metro service. Try use the same platforms at CJ too. One line with two branches, not too different to the ELL.

To be honest maybe we could extend 1 tph to St Albans Abbey? It would provide St Albans with a direct service to West London and South London.

 

[zwk500]

To be honest maybe we could extend 1 tph to St Albans Abbey? It would provide St Albans with a direct service to West London and South London.

And utterly stuff the Abbey branch service? It's single track, single lead and IIRC runs at a 40 or 45 minute service interval.

I'd personally rejig Wembley Central to give this service a dedicated bay and terminate it there, running as a Croydon or Clapham Junction - Wembley Central all-day 2tph. This would obviously require a major rework of the freight connections at Wembley Central so I will not be holding my breath for anything to ever come of it.
This is informed by the fact that I used to live in MK and have family in Sussex, and in my experience the journey times were horrendously uncompetitive as a through route, and the intermediate patronage was several orders of magnitude higher south of Wembley Central. I would change at Clapham so can't comment on the number of people using the stopping portion between Clapham and Croydon.

 

[Mgameing123]

And utterly stuff the Abbey branch service? It's single track, single lead and IIRC runs at a 40 or 45 minute service interval.

I'd personally rejig Wembley Central to give this service a dedicated bay and terminate it there, running as a Croydon or Clapham Junction - Wembley Central all-day 2tph. This would obviously require a major rework of the freight connections at Wembley Central so I will not be holding my breath for anything to ever come of it.
This is informed by the fact that I used to live in MK and have family in Sussex, and in my experience the journey times were horrendously uncompetitive as a through route, and the intermediate patronage was several orders of magnitude higher south of Wembley Central. I would change at Clapham so can't comment on the number of people using the stopping portion between Clapham and Croydon.

Well the 1 tph to St Albans would replace the shuttle and since the train will anyways terminate at Watford Junction. May aswell extend it onto the Abbey Line to help increase ridership.

 

[zwk500]

Well the 1 tph to St Albans would replace the shuttle and since the train will anyways terminate at Watford Junction.

Yes but you're replacing a 40 or 45 minute service with 60 minute service, making the service offering worse.

May aswell extend it onto the Abbey Line to help increase ridership.

Would it? St Albans already has extremely frequent services into central London with access to the Elizabeth Line and tube. Which vast untapped market are you serving that will make up for the worse frequency and lower reliability caused by adding more chokepoints?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

To be honest maybe we could extend 1 tph to St Albans Abbey? It would provide St Albans with a direct service to West London and South London.

That idea would completely wreck to robustness of the reliable Abbey service , which apart from a smallish % of passengers changing onto the main line at Watford , would affect the predominantly local traffic on the branch. Various constraints on getting on and off the branch in any case.....(again discussed here before)

St Albans has comprehensive services to South London via Thameslink , West London can be reached via transfers at West Hampstead , of which there are certsin fast trains calling there and apart from the street transfer , is straightforward -though there could be some improvements to the street environment / pedestrian crossings (something that has been discussed on here before , and is outwith of the railway frankly)

 

[Mgameing123]

Yes but you're replacing a 40 or 45 minute service with 60 minute service, making the service offering worse.

Would it? St Albans already has extremely frequent services into central London with access to the Elizabeth Line and tube. Which vast untapped market are you serving that will make up for the worse frequency and lower reliability caused by adding more chokepoints?

A train every 45 minutes is an odd frequency. It's much better having clockfase timetables.

 

[miklcct]

A train every 45 minutes is an odd frequency. It's much better having clockfase timetables.

A train every 45 minutes is always better than every 60 minutes. The average waiting time is shorter at a 45-minute headway, as long as the service is reliable.

 

[JonathanH]

A train every 45 minutes is an odd frequency. It's much better having clockfase timetables.

You think it is better passengers waiting a whole hour when the line can support a 45 minute frequency? Regular passengers can learn a timetable.

 

[zwk500]

A train every 45 minutes is an odd frequency. It's much better having clockfase timetables.

This has come up before and IIRC the conclusion from @ChiefPlanner and @Bald Rick was that 45 minutes was better than 60 for the traffic pattern on the line. Given those two posters have been professionally responsible for running that precise line, I'm inclined to accept what they say.

 

[A0wen]

And utterly stuff the Abbey branch service? It's single track, single lead and IIRC runs at a 40 or 45 minute service interval.

I'd personally rejig Wembley Central to give this service a dedicated bay and terminate it there, running as a Croydon or Clapham Junction - Wembley Central all-day 2tph. This would obviously require a major rework of the freight connections at Wembley Central so I will not be holding my breath for anything to ever come of it.
This is informed by the fact that I used to live in MK and have family in Sussex, and in my experience the journey times were horrendously uncompetitive as a through route, and the intermediate patronage was several orders of magnitude higher south of Wembley Central. I would change at Clapham so can't comment on the number of people using the stopping portion between Clapham and Croydon.

Wouldn't Harrow & Wealdstone make more sense ? There's space for a bay platform on the east side which was the old Belmont branch platform and LNW stop the Tring and MK stoppers there so it would be an easier interchange for some places north of Watford.

 

[Mgameing123]

You think it is better passengers waiting a whole hour when the line can support a 45 minute frequency? Regular passengers can learn a timetable.

Personally i'd prefer having a frequency that means me know that I can always make a connection towards London than having a frequency where its not certain if I can make a connecting train.

 

[A S Leib]

How Wood and Park Street are less than a 20 minute walk apart, and I don't think there's anywhere which is served by Park Street now which is more than a 25 minute walk from How Wood or St. Albans Abbey. Watford North to Garston or Watford Junction isn't a long walk either, although it's slightly closer to the Asda than Garston is. Would closing / consolidating one or two stations be enough to run 2 tph? What was the most frequent service in 1965, before Garston and Park Street were open?

I suspect the idea's been suggested and rejected, and as it's not a line which non-locals use in large numbers, irregular services with more stations might be better.

 

[JonathanH]

It is funny how debates about Clapham Junction to Watford Junction seem to always get sidetracked by the St Albans Abbey line when the original poster was bemoaning the point that it no longer goes on to Milton Keynes.

 

[A S Leib]

It is funny how debates about Clapham Junction to Watford Junction seem to always get sidetracked by the St Albans Abbey line when the original poster was bemoaning the point that it no longer goes on to Milton Keynes.

Or to East Croydon.

Is there anywhere else the existing service could be sent after Clapham Junction? TfL probably wouldn't want to move Twickenham, Shepperton, Hampton Court, Chessington South or Epsom to the Overground as urgently when they're potential Crossrail 2 branches, but would a Watford – Hounslow or Sutton service achieve anything beyond destroying reliability?

 

[A0wen]

How Wood and Park Street are less than a 20 minute walk apart, and I don't think there's anywhere which is served by Park Street now which is more than a 25 minute walk from How Wood or St. Albans Abbey. Watford North to Garston or Watford Junction isn't a long walk either, although it's slightly closer to the Asda than Garston is. Would closing / consolidating one or two stations be enough to run 2 tph? What was the most frequent service in 1965, before Garston and Park Street were open?

I suspect the idea's been suggested and rejected, and as it's not a line which non-locals use in large numbers, irregular services with more stations might be better.

Timetable World has it as up to half hourly in 1962 however there was a passing loop at Bricket Wood so a higher frequency was possible.