WCML Class 87's RETURN!

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metrocammel

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I dnt know if this has already been made a topic, but if it has, I cant find it!.....

From WNXX:

West Coast 87s...?
Following on from the report on the 11th that several Class 87s are in the frame for a return to use along with the news that a program of modifications, including the fitment of sanding equipment, to the VTWC Pendolino fleet is in the pipeline, how safe is it to assume that we can anticipate a temporary return of the Class to passenger work on WCML metals? Reasonably safe apparently. As always though subject to further developments / confirmation etc.

All I can say is My Lordzzz! It's not April 1st is it?! Anyway, if i turns out to be true, it is going to be rather "dreadful"! lol!

James
 
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joy54.gen

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I doubt this will happen and will not raise my hopes too high. All I can say is if they do run I'll concentrate on doing them all the time I can before there gone again. I don't want another incident where I was waiting for 87013 (which would of been the last ever 87 hauled service train) at Watford Junction, where it turned out to be a 57 as 87013 had a suspected fire onboard at Crewe
 

metrocammel

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86242 said:
metrocammel said:
Im not going to start speculating about numbers yet, as basically any lhcs returning is better than nothing!!

Too true ;) but also which DVTs will return will also be interesting but I would think 82101 and 82126 But IF cotswold get the contact it may be top and tailed as they don't have any DVTs as far as I know...

Well, Ive heard rumours about it being top & tailed, but this does seem unlikely. Though on a separate note, on Friday four or five dvts were noted going south through Stafford behind a Freightliner 57 i think. Destination unknown.

I dont want to rest on my laurels, but I must comment, (other than April 1st!) The "gen" that appears on the news page of WNXX, is usually accurate- but wait & see!
 

86242

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metrocammel said:
Well, Ive heard rumours about it being top & tailed, but this does seem unlikely. Though on a separate note, on Friday four or five dvts were noted going south through Stafford behind a Freightliner 57 i think. Destination unknown.

It was 47816 IIRC on a DVT move from Longtown to Long Marston. It appears that Longtown is being cleared out of junk!
 

metrocammel

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86242 said:
It was 47816 IIRC on a DVT move from Longtown to Long Marston. It appears that Longtown is being cleared out of junk!

Ah, he said it was green, "looked like a 47", and was on a consist of DVT's, so it sounds about right- he was in the Stafford Arms at the time!
 

Techniquest

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Where is Longtown? And I wouldn't call DVTs junk as such...!

Locos back on the WCML will be nice, but as with the HSTs on VXC services again, I'm being cautious with excitement levels, especially at this time of day...Long story.
 

metrocammel

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I remember seeing a right random consist of DVT's going to Longtown (or Polmadie) late 2004- about December 20th. The went flying thru' Bank Quay as I was waiting for 87004 on a Bank Q- London train. they were all facing different directions, and there was even one that was head to head- that was an unusual sight!
 

86242

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metrocammel said:
I remember seeing a right random consist of DVT's going to Longtown (or Polmadie) late 2004- about December 20th. The went flying thru' Bank Quay as I was waiting for 87004 on a Bank Q- London train. they were all facing different directions, and there was even one that was head to head- that was an unusual sight!

Its amazing how Virgin managed to change the direction of every DVT in the last few months of the old TT as they should all be on the south end. From what I remember almost every set was in the wrong formation!
 

86242

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This appears to be true
31454 on wnxx said:
573xx + 2x 87's = 0Z57 10.20 Oxley-Willesden tomorrow (Monday)

FOUR class 87's are to be prepared at Willesden for a return to the WCML, then 2x 87's will be allocated to top'n'tailing a mk.3 set, as a replacement for at least one Pendolino set per day. They are expected to see use until late June.

Thanks to Gwot/Emrps/RB for the information.

WOW there returning and top'n'tailing!

Best news of 2006

87s are returning to WCML passenger!
 

Techniquest

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BRING IT ON! More 87 mileages... :D

Finally H-Oing the last bit of the route between Brum Int and New Street, that'll be excellent! Can't wait to bash an 87 at full speed up the WCML!
 

ChrisCooper

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As someone else has said, 2006 might not be as boring as it seemed it was going to be. It would be nice to get a few missing 87s in, some of which are available for these services, and perhaps some extra milage, although sadly I have covered the entire WCML as far as Lancaster, and I doubt they will be used on Anglo-Scottish services, most likely Wolverhamptons. If some got up to Manchester it would be nice though, since the only other bit I'm missing down south is Colwich Jn to Stone Jn on the Manchester line. Top and Tail would be interesting, in particular in the unlikely event that both locos are working (for start, I think even without tilt we'd have some record breaking runs, especially on Stop-Start Wolverhamptons), but I expect they will find some DVT from somewhere.
 

yorkie

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ChrisCooper said:
some got up to Manchester it would be nice though, since the only other bit I'm missing down south is Colwich Jn to Stone Jn on the Manchester line.
Same here. The line was always shut whenever I went 87 bashing!

ChrisCooper said:
Top and Tail would be interesting, in particular in the unlikely event that both locos are working (for start, I think even without tilt we'd have some record breaking runs, especially on Stop-Start Wolverhamptons), but I expect they will find some DVT from somewhere.
I believe top and tailing does mean working in multiple. If the rear loco is not providing power it is 'dead on rear', however it is often mistakenly referred to as 'top and tail' (at least, that's what I've been informed...)

They may be top and tailed to improve acceleration in order to keep to Pendolino timings. Indeed, given the slack time in the timetable they may even arrive early. Let's hope that happens!
 

ChrisCooper

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yorkie said:
ChrisCooper said:
some got up to Manchester it would be nice though, since the only other bit I'm missing down south is Colwich Jn to Stone Jn on the Manchester line.
Same here. The line was always shut whenever I went 87 bashing!

ChrisCooper said:
Top and Tail would be interesting, in particular in the unlikely event that both locos are working (for start, I think even without tilt we'd have some record breaking runs, especially on Stop-Start Wolverhamptons), but I expect they will find some DVT from somewhere.
I believe top and tailing does mean working in multiple. If the rear loco is not providing power it is 'dead on rear', however it is often mistakenly referred to as 'top and tail' (at least, that's what I've been informed...)

They may be top and tailed to improve acceleration in order to keep to Pendolino timings. Indeed, given the slack time in the timetable they may even arrive early. Let's hope that happens!

You are right, top and tail correctly refers to both locos providing power although it is often used when a second loco is dead on the rear. It is the same as double heading, which again refers to 2 locos providing power, yet often is used to refer to a second loco dead in train. It is very rare though for electric locos to run proper top and tail or double headed on passenger work, due to the massive amount of power they draw (Electric locos can draw more power than a 12 car EMU). On freight, double heading does occur such as Freightliner with 86s, and 87s have also run double headed, but this is about adheasion and tractive effort, both of which electric locos lack compared to diesels (why a single 47 could handle the same train), so the maximum power wouldn't be needed or used. As one point though, Anglia, or possibly by then 'one' were having trouble with the DBSOs, and used 86s 'top and tail'. The official rule was that the rear loco should be dead, it was reported that at least once a driver forgot to lower the pantograph on the London end loco before leaving Liverpool St, with very lively performance following.
Acceleration wise, 87s can keep up with the Pendolino's pretty well anyway, afterall, they have 7860hp+ available (that is the official maximum rating, yet more could be got out of them for short periods). The extra acceleration from top and tail running though should easily make up for the 15mph lower top speed and lack of tilt, especially if as most likely they were used on Wolverhapmton services with lots of stops.
 

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86242 said:
Galvanize said:
If there's no DVT, where's the guard gonna go or the heavy luggage?

The luggage part of the DVT has been disused for ages anyway. If Cotswold get the contact I would think they will use the 1717Xs...

In other words the Mk3b BFOs. There are only 3 of those though, and 17175 is operated by EWS, and my 2005 Locos and Coaching stock only confirms 17173 as being operated by Cotswold, with 17174 being shown as at Wilton, Teeside which is operated by SembCorp Utilities, http://www.sembutilities.co.uk/index.html . It is still shown as owned by Porterbrook though as are all the loco hauled Mk3s.
 

86242

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ChrisCooper said:
86242 said:
Galvanize said:
If there's no DVT, where's the guard gonna go or the heavy luggage?

The luggage part of the DVT has been disused for ages anyway. If Cotswold get the contact I would think they will use the 1717Xs...

In other words the Mk3b BFOs. There are only 3 of those though, and 17175 is operated by EWS, and my 2005 Locos and Coaching stock only confirms 17173 as being operated by Cotswold, with 17174 being shown as at Wilton, Teeside which is operated by SembCorp Utilities, http://www.sembutilities.co.uk/index.html . It is still shown as owned by Porterbrook though as are all the loco hauled Mk3s.

IIRC Cotswold have now got there hands on at least two of them and maybe the third one (17175 that has been a long stored one). 17173 or 17174 is sitting at Gloucester at the moment...
 

metrocammel

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They could always use the MK1 BG's(?), as they were fitted with BT10 (mk3 coach bogies - so 110mph permitted) in the late 1980's / early 90's, before the full introduction of DVT's. I doubt if there are many of those brake coaches left now mind, though Ive noticed there is a Porterbrook liveried (barrier?) at LO - though that has the standard 100mph B4 bogies - and tbh it's been there such a long time since that moved it would probably crumble! Anyway, Im not sure what they may use, but they could always make it a 100mph set and but a mk2 bso in the consist, though CR have no mk2's do they? Anway, we shall see, and it may be worth CR's time to hire in / invest in a few DVT's, though I doubt if thats as simple as it seems.
 

Julian G

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can't they borrow the stored DBSOs from ONE and use them?
Are DBSOs compatiable with 87s?

86242 said:
Its amazing how Virgin managed to change the direction of every DVT in the last few months of the old TT as they should all be on the south end. From what I remember almost every set was in the wrong formation!
You mean this ;)
It makes a change though :)
 

ChrisCooper

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No BGs were ever fitted with BT10s, but B4s are permitted up to 110mph in normal service as long as they have special maintenance, especially regular wheel reprofiling. Thereoretically any B4 fitted brake coach could be used. The DBSOs are compatable with the 87s, and any other TDM fitted loco with RCH jumpers (e.g Classes 86 to 91 and 67s), so could be used. They couldn't be propelled at 110mph though due to the rules saying that no passengers can travel in the leading vehicle of a train travelling at more than 100mph (which is why the Mk3 and 4 DVTs have no passenger accomodation, although the rules were changed to allow passengers in the rear 2/3 of the vehicle in modern trains due to improved crashworthyness).
 

Z12XE

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Julian G said:
can't they borrow the stored DBSOs from ONE and use them?
Are DBSOs compatiable with 87s?

Most of the DBSOs going off lease with One are the ones which have run out of miles, or very near to running out. Wouldn't be worth giving them the major exams/overhauls they need for this (hopefully) short period
 

ChrisCooper

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Julian G said:
can't they borrow the stored DBSOs from ONE and use them?
Are DBSOs compatiable with 87s?

86242 said:
Its amazing how Virgin managed to change the direction of every DVT in the last few months of the old TT as they should all be on the south end. From what I remember almost every set was in the wrong formation!
You mean this ;)
It makes a change though :)

The last time I did a Virgin Loco Hauled service, from Birmingham to London, I on the way out had what seemed to be the only normal formation set working. Sadly this meant I wasn't hauled either way, in particular annoying since I wanted to film being hauled out of Euston from up behind the loco (I could have done had I gone back on the same train, but I wanted a different loco). The following train was totally messed up, with the coaches normal but the loco and DVT at the opposite ends ('one' style). I gave this a miss, since it was 87002 which I didn't need, and not only was it propelling, but first class was next to the loco. Next was a Pendolino, and finally, I managed to get the lesser of possible evils, a different loco with the whole set the wrong way, so at least I could sit infront of the loco (by this time it ws getting busy and late, so I didn't fancy waiting). Best one I have seen though, although it was a few years ago, was a set with a DVT at both ends, both facing outwards, with a 87 coupled to the north one. Would have been interesting to remove the 87 and see how long it took them to figure out why it wouldn't go.
 
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