WCML Derailment in Cumbria - 29th May 2024

[43066]

If a Preston crew is allocated to a set, and the set has come up on a London-Glasgow trip, there is absolutely no reason that journey shouldn’t go ahead.

Because the set may be needed to go back south to maintain the service. Remember part of the fleet is north of the blockade and cannot be used for those services.

The service to the North shouldn’t be disrupted purely to maintain service to the South.

Yes it absolutely should if it benefits more passengers.

 

[paul1609]

As I mentioned previously on this thread, the Avanti service (along with the TPE) serves as the local, regional and intercity service for the region. Oxenholme is also a railhead for the South Lakes, whilst Penrith does the same for the North Lakes.

Those ORR figures don't take into account the fact that Lake District traffic (especially Oxenholme) is largely seasonal.

If the resource is already allocated (and it is - a Pendo and Preston crew waiting at Preston), then there is no reason the service shouldn't operate as far as it can.

The ORR figures are for 12 months, if they are correct and Ive no reason to doubt that they are, the Lake District isnt really the railbourne tourist honeypot that some people suggest. The Windermere branch has very low traffic that is primarily local commuting to Kendal and Penrith is similarly local commuting to Carlisle. There is no reason why the flows for either of these stations couldnt be served by TPE everyday let alone when there is disruption with sets stuck in Scotland.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Yes it absolutely should if it benefits more passengers.

There was no service to Oxenholme for 3 hours with no RRB. That's unacceptable.

There needs to be a minimum service maintained - especially if the stock and crew were meant to be on that journey anyway.

The ORR figures are for 12 months, if they are correct and Ive no reason to doubt that they are, the Lake District isnt really the railbourne tourist honeypot that some people suggest. The Windermere branch has very low traffic that is primarily local commuting to Kendal and Penrith is similarly local commuting to Carlisle. There is no reason why the flows for either of these stations couldnt be served by TPE everyday let alone when there is disruption with sets stuck in Scotland.

If the tourist season is about 3 months long, and the figures are over 12 months, of course they won't reflect the traffic accurately. You also fail to account for split ticketing (which will often split at Oxenholme).

Northern will fill up a 6 car 195 during the summer season. It'll be nearly empty during December/January. That's based on actual usage of the service.

Why should one of the countries poorest regions receive a significant downgrade in service, when it already has sacrificed so much to VHF?

 

[43066]

There was no service to Oxenholme for 3 hours with no RRB. That's unacceptable.

There needs to be a minimum service maintained - especially if the stock and crew were meant to be on that journey anyway.

What you’re ignoring is that, regardless of whether you consider it acceptable, it may be physically impossible to maintain the service you want within the constraints of the crew and rolling stock resources available. As already pointed out there are fewer units to play with than normal, so it isn’t a case of simply repurposing the same number of crews and units. Plus you have to consider crew breaks, rest etc.

If a choice has to made it’s obvious why the services to the south will take priority. It makes no sense to risk dangerous overcrowding, and the service between London and the West Midlands being pared back, just to waste units and crews running shuttles to minor stations north of Preston.

As for RRBs realistically are they available at the price the DfT will authorise, and will they see enough use to make it worth it? Most of the small numbers of passengers affected will likely either defer travel to a later rail service, or make other arrangements.

 

[Agent_Squash]

What you’re ignoring is that, regardless of whether you consider it acceptable, it may be physically impossible to maintain the service you want within the constraints of the crew and rolling stock resources available. As already pointed out there are fewer units to play with than normal, so it isn’t a case of simply repurposing the same number of crews and units. Plus you have to consider crew breaks, rest etc.

If a choice has to made it’s obvious why the services to the south will take priority. It makes no sense to risk dangerous overcrowding, and the service between London and the West Midlands being pared back, just to waste units and crews running shuttles to minor stations north of Preston.

As for RRBs realistically are they available at the price the DfT will authorise, and will they see enough use to make it worth it? Most of the small numbers of passengers affected will likely either defer travel to a later rail service, or make other arrangements.

What you're ignoring that, regardless of whether you consider it acceptable, it is absolutely possible to maintain a limited service to the North without putting the busier southbound service to the dogs.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a crew doing Preston - Carlisle could very reasonably take the exact same path they would've taken to Glasgow, wait 3 hours, and come back. What's more, you could probably reduce that gap very easily, and run a shuttle with 1/2 units.

As a regular user of the service, you are exaggerating the risk of dangerous overcrowding. The services are already busy from Oxenholme/Lancaster - especially at this time of year.

One final note - there isn't many other options! It would take over 3 hours to do Preston - Oxenholme by bus, the later rail service is often only a 3 car 195 already full at this time of year, or you take the car. This isn't London with a new train every 15 minutes.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If the tourist season is about 3 months long, and the figures are over 12 months, of course they won't reflect the traffic accurately. You also fail to account for split ticketing (which will often split at Oxenholme).

Northern will fill up a 6 car 195 during the summer season. It'll be nearly empty during December/January. That's based on actual usage of the service.

Why should one of the countries poorest regions receive a significant downgrade in service, when it already has sacrificed so much to VHF?

I was at Oxenholme last Thursday and there were tiny numbers of passengers waiting for a train. The TPE service would have been more than adequate, but as I mentioned previously that didn't run for a large part of the day either, so the situation was unacceptable considering there also weren't any RRBs.

 

[43066]

What you're ignoring that, regardless of whether you consider it acceptable, it is absolutely possible to maintain a limited service to the North without putting the busier southbound service to the dogs.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a crew doing Preston - Carlisle could very reasonably take the exact same path they would've taken to Glasgow, wait 3 hours, and come back. What's more, you could probably reduce that gap very easily, and run a shuttle with 1/2 units.

With respect, this is just your own speculation. You don’t *know* what is possible and what isn’t. Clearly the people who actually run the service and are paid to make the decisions disagree with you.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a crew doing Preston - Carlisle could very reasonably take the exact same path they would've taken to Glasgow, wait 3 hours, and come back. What's more, you could probably reduce that gap very easily, and run a shuttle with 1/2 units.

No they couldn’t because that unit will need to head south earlier to maintain the frequency. Normally you’d have other services from north of Preston heading south. With many units stuck north of the block you need to use the ones you have available more intensively to maintain the same service.

One final note - there isn't many other options! It would take over 3 hours to do Preston - Oxenholme by bus, the later rail service is often only a 3 car 195 already full at this time of year, or you take the car. This isn't London with a new train every 15 minutes.

If it takes over three hours to do Preston to Oxenholme nobody is going to use the bus anyway. It isn’t going to be possible to rustle up buses at such short notice anyway. I agree they should be provided during planned engineering, but this is known well in advance, and the derailment being discussed is a different situation.

Ultimately if you live somewhere isolated you have to accept the service will prioritise major population centres during disruption.

 

[Blackpool boy]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a crew doing Preston - Carlisle could very reasonably take the exact same path they would've taken to Glasgow, wait 3 hours, and come back. What's more, you could probably reduce that gap very easily, and run a shuttle with 1/2 units.

Been a while since i was at Carlisle but do they have tanking facilities there? Trains would get very smelly very quickly if not

 

[driver9000]

Been a while since i was at Carlisle but do they have tanking facilities there? Trains would get very smelly very quickly if not

Tanking isn't available at Carlisle.

 

[Donny Dave]

There was no service to Oxenholme for 3 hours with no RRB. That's unacceptable.

That's better than the service Scunthorpe received when TPE had major problems on the South route. Upto 4 hours without trains with no RRB, and other transport links from there non-existent....

 

[Lucy1501]

Tanking isn't available at Carlisle.

DRS's Carlisle Kingmoor depot has faciltiies, installed when loco hauled stock was leased to Northern on the Cumbrian Coast. If they come to an agreement there could be some use of their facilities. With much of the depot being unelectrified it could cause some issues, however DRS have a thunderbird loco sat at Carlisle almost all the time.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Tanking isn't available at Carlisle.

Thanks

DRS's Carlisle Kingmoor depot has faciltiies, installed when loco hauled stock was leased to Northern on the Cumbrian Coast. If they come to an agreement there could be some use of their facilities. With much of the depot being unelectrified it could cause some issues, however DRS have a thunderbird loco sat at Carlisle almost all the time.

Thats not going to happen with in the turnaround times though is it and would be very expensive for Avanti

 

[driver9000]

DRS's Carlisle Kingmoor depot has faciltiies, installed when loco hauled stock was leased to Northern on the Cumbrian Coast. If they come to an agreement there could be some use of their facilities. With much of the depot being unelectrified it could cause some issues, however DRS have a thunderbird loco sat at Carlisle almost all the time.

Never going to happen though even if the equipment is compatible with the Avanti and TPE fleets.

 

[Skiddaw]

Ultimately if you live somewhere isolated you have to accept the service will prioritise major population centres during disruption.

I wouldn't call Penrith (or indeed Oxenholme) 'isolated'. It all feels a bit like victim-blaming to me. I get the point about major population centres but let's face it- TPE and Avanti are hardly reliable at the best of times and I don't see why the many of us who live north of Preston should seem always to get the sticky end of the lolly.

 

[Carlisle]

Tanking isn't available at Carlisle.

It is as the water tanks on Northern & Scotrail units & visiting rail tours are generally replenished there.

 

[wilbers]

Even so, I don't see the argument that 'fast' trains shouldn't stop at either station. Oxenholme gets a fair bit of tourist traffic during the holiday season (including people from abroad who will likely have started from London) and whilst the population density in Cumbria is low, Penrith is a decent sized market town. I don't think any of us would be too chuffed if we had to travel to Carlisle or Lancaster to pick up a fast train to Euston or Glasgow.

On a personal note, both me and Mr Skiddaw do sometimes travel to Carlisle from Penrith rather than drive (it depends on what we're doing) as I am sure do many locals and again, I don't see that's a valid argument for fast trains not stopping at Penrith.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.....

Oddly enough I've never done Penrith->Carlisle (ONLY) on the train. If I'm going to Carlisle I just drive. I did once buy a Penrith-Carlisle day return but that was because I was going to Edinburgh and the advances from Penrith on the train I wanted had sold out, but was still available from Carlisle.

 

[driver9000]

It is as the water tanks on Northern & Scotrail units & visiting rail tours are generally replenished there.

Older units using a hose pipe but modern stock may have a special fitting to attach the pipe to the filler (the ones I sign do). There is no facility for CET which is what tanking also refers to.

 

[Carlisle]

Older units using a hose pipe but modern stock may have a special fitting to attach the pipe to the filler (the ones I sign do). There is no facility for CET which is what tanking also refers to.

Agree there’s no CET facilities, but a special fitting should be easily attachable with a jubilee clip.

 

[QueensCurve]

The difficulty for those of us living north of Lancaster and south of Motherwell is that the population isn't that great - and at times of disruption the easiest "get out" is to divert Glasgow passengers via the ECML and abandon those from Cumbria and South West Scotland. Abandoning Preston - Glasgow seems to be happening on a fairly regular basis - whether engineering, climate or mishap.

"Levelling up"

Also doesn’t help that their diesel or soon to be bi mode’s stock aren’t in reality capable of operating north of Preston

Is that simply because they haven't been cleared since the intention was to use them on non-electrified routes further South?

As a West Cumbrian, I’d rather (selfishly) like Avanti to keep stopping at Penrith, and Oxenholme to be served by Northern from Preston or Lancaster please…

If I’m going somewhere and back in a day, it’s better to drive to Penrith than Carlisle to catch a train, then I’m only worrying about TPE or Avanti crying off, whereas if I go Workington->Carlisle, I’ve got the opportunity for Northern to put a spanner in the works before I’ve even begun my journey.

Speaking as a West Cumbrian I have traditionally used Penrith as a railhead becausse of the long time penalty of getting connecting trains compared to driving to Penith which, driving with indecent haste, I can do in under 40 mins.

I agree it is very unsatisfactory. Unfortunately, the resources released by a line block over Shap are all at the Glasgow end. A quick check of the Preston timetable suggests you can't free up any of the stock based in the NW without thinning the timetable. Turning the WM services at Crewe frees up just one set because of awkward turnround times, so you would be limited to a 3-hourly Preston-Carlisle - better than nothing, certainly.

To ride one of my personal hobby horses, in the case of this latest disruption where one line was still passible, it should have been possible to maintain the service with Glasgow based stock, had bidirectional signalling been provided. I know historically that the Weaver to Glasgow upgrade of the 1970s was done on the cheap. How we are still paying for it.

It does seem, perhaps due to fragmentation or lack of vertical integration, the British Railway is not fit for purpose.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Speaking as a West Cumbrian I have traditionally used Penrith as a railhead becausse of the long time penalty of getting connecting trains compared to driving to Penith which, driving with indecent haste, I can do in under 40 mins.

If I’m going off with the family, I do the same, but if it’s work, I either train up to Carlisle or down to Lancaster - no point putting mileage on my car if I can be paid to sit on a train and watch the world go by

 

[a_c_skinner]

You don’t *know* what is possible and what isn’t. Clearly the people who actually run the service and are paid to make the decisions disagree with you.

No, they may agree about what is possible but merely settle for the expedient.

 

[Agent_Squash]

With respect, this is just your own speculation. You don’t *know* what is possible and what isn’t. Clearly the people who actually run the service and are paid to make the decisions disagree with you.

The people who run the service are guided by the DfT’s cost cutting, not my best interest as a passenger.

As mentioned several times (and ignored by you) this was the standard under Virgin.

That's better than the service Scunthorpe received when TPE had major problems on the South route. Upto 4 hours without trains with no RRB, and other transport links from there non-existent....

Both are unacceptable - not sure why one being worse is relevant?

No they couldn’t because that unit will need to head south earlier to maintain the frequency. Normally you’d have other services from north of Preston heading south. With many units stuck north of the block you need to use the ones you have available more intensively to maintain the same service.

[snip]

Ultimately if you live somewhere isolated you have to accept the service will prioritise major population centres during disruption.

Sorry, but this reeks of just fobbing off areas of the country just to maintain the service to London.

Lancaster, Kendal and Penrith are not isolated. They are served poorly by bus, but that hasn’t mattered due to strong road (M6) and rail (WCML) links between them.

People rely on these services. There are alternatives going South (3tph from Piccadilly!), whereas Avanti/TPE pulling the plug on the northern WCML leaves nothing.

Again, the easiest operational option (with the lowest cost) isn’t acceptable here. If your service got the treatment we get on the northern WCML you’d be up in arms!

 

[Greybeard33]

A recently published cab ride video passes the scene of the incident while the re-railing operation was in progress. The northern bogie of the wagon appears to be back on the rails, with the southern bogie still to be moved. At about 46:30 in the video.

The very slow approach to the location illustrates the severely restricted capacity from single line operation until the recovery was complete.

 

[hypercolius]

Indeed Avanti social media are now lying, as they did in response to my tweet saying that the incident ‘affects the whole line’

x.com

x.com

Northern services are serving Lancaster and Oxenholme still. Understandably it is difficult to terminate at Oxenholme, but there’s plenty of room to do it at Lancaster with connections to the Cumbrian coast round to Carlisle.

An hour round trip shouldn’t be out of the reach of the modern railway.

Thought so myself. I was caught up in this disruption and was shocked to see so many cancelled trains. Running trains at least to Lancaster should have been simple. My journey was so delayed that day I rode it for free, however.

I have to agree, and having looked earlier I think I can guess the two to whom you refer.

But railway senior management don't help. According to Journeycheck, Northern are accepting TPE tickets, but not Avanti tickets. For crying out loud, when something like this happens the railway should just come together to get passengers to their destination by whatever alternative routes are available - its just another example which illustrates why an overall railway 'Chairman' is desperately required, if only to bang heads together.

Apparently there was one chap needing to travel from London to Dumfries this morning. He caught a King's Cross - Edinburgh service and, once onboard, asked Avanti whether he could alight at Newcastle then catch a service to Carlisle for another to Dumfries. Avanti told him no - he had to travel to Edinburgh, then across to Glasgow for the next service all the way down to Dumfries.

Some passengers, travelling from Edinburgh to Warrington yesterday afternoon, just after the derailment occured, are reported as having had to find their own accommodation in Carlisle. This morning they've been told that they shouldn't travel as there is no other available route from Carlisle to Warrington.

Embarrassing.

I travelled on Northern with an Avanti ticket that day... even if I knew it wasn't being accepted I would have still went ahead and travelled on Northern
Avanti does lie about this regularly- the same day they said I could not use my ticket to get from Lancaster to Birmingham via Leeds. Crosscountry said it would be accepted, however.