WCML Disruption between Carlisle and Scotland 22/23/24 Feb 2021

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Steddenm

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It is looking like the WCML is closed on Tuesday and Wednesday due to high winds and heavy rain with no services between Carlisle and Scotland. CS have already cancelled Monday nights services.
 
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Bald Rick

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It is looking like the WCML is closed on Tuesday and Wednesday due to high winds and heavy rain with no services between Carlisle and Scotland. CS have already cancelled Monday nights services.

It’s the quantity of rain, and flooding issues / embankment, rather than wind.
 

bengley

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Specifically, at Beattock. There's a problem culvert which has been causing issues since a landslip occurred a couple of months ago. Every time there's bad rain it floods and ends up causing severe disruption.
 

syorksdeano

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Specifically, at Beattock. There's a problem culvert which has been causing issues since a landslip occurred a couple of months ago. Every time there's bad rain it floods and ends up causing severe disruption.
Is that where the flooding was over the weekend that shut the line most of the weekend?
 

itsonlyme

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Specifically, at Beattock. There's a problem culvert which has been causing issues since a landslip occurred a couple of months ago. Every time there's bad rain it floods and ends up causing severe disruption.

Presumably when it works its way to the top of the plan somebody will get down to fixing it
 

Unstoppable

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Our network truly is an embarrassment. Where is the motivation and urge to forge forward through adversity and get the passenger from A - B. The lack of trying is just turning people to other methods of transport. Astronomically high fares which provide no value for money in turn being brought down further by the lack of service. Someone really does need to question this. Safety is important but if we all felt there was risk and got scared by it then we might as well just stay in bed all day
 

Bald Rick

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Our network truly is an embarrassment. Where is the motivation and urge to forge forward through adversity and get the passenger from A - B. The lack of trying is just turning people to other methods of transport. Astronomically high fares which provide no value for money in turn being brought down further by the lack of service. Someone really does need to question this. Safety is important but if we all felt there was risk and got scared by it then we might as well just stay in bed all day

Sigh.
 

D6130

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It is looking like the WCML is closed on Tuesday and Wednesday due to high winds and heavy rain with no services between Carlisle and Scotland. CS have already cancelled Monday nights services.
......and some freight services are being diverted via the G&SW and Annbank, as happened on Sunday. I wonder whether Avanti will operate a Voyager shuttle between Carlisle and Glasgow via the G&SW as they did during the Lockerbie Pendolino incident a couple of weeks ago?
 

Watershed

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Our network truly is an embarrassment. Where is the motivation and urge to forge forward through adversity and get the passenger from A - B. The lack of trying is just turning people to other methods of transport. Astronomically high fares which provide no value for money in turn being brought down further by the lack of service. Someone really does need to question this. Safety is important but if we all felt there was risk and got scared by it then we might as well just stay in bed all day
There's a grain of truth in what you say - a lot of the network is vulnerable to poor weather conditions, because it is predominantly made up of 19th Century earthworks and structures. That will only get worse as climate change intensifies.

But there's simply not the funding to pre-emptively rebuild everything to modern standards, and even if there were, there'd be an inordinate number of long blockades whilst things were upgraded.

The outcome is closures and speed restrictions whilst things are dealt with (mostly) reactively. Tragedies like Stonehaven demonstrate the risks, and there have been plenty of other landslips etc. where the railway has caught a lucky break.
 

Ceat0908

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......and some freight services are being diverted via the G&SW and Annbank, as happened on Sunday. I wonder whether Avanti will operate a Voyager shuttle between Carlisle and Glasgow via the G&SW as they did during the Lockerbie Pendolino incident a couple of weeks ago?
I believe a voyager left Carlisle to go over the south western at around 1115. It was planned to anyway.
 

neilmc

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"A lot of the network is vulnerable to poor weather conditions". Well, yes. But storms and high winds in February are not exactly unknown in the UK, and I may be wrong but surely in BR days, or steam days at least:

a) the railway would have sorted out a "problem culvert" by transferring teams, if necessary, to work on it, they wouldn't have allowed a main arterial route to be vulnerable for long
b) if necessary, the G&SW route would have been intensively used via diversions of the scheduled WCML, not by posting a notice saying "no trains between Carlisle and Scotland" and hoping nobody thinks of using this line

Basically this is an admission that in the UK we can actually do without even key train services if the weather's not fine and we can't be bothered solving infrastructure issues in a timely manner. Good job we've got airlines and motorway, eh?
 

Watershed

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But storms and high winds in February are not exactly unknown in the UK
No, but the volume of rain over the last months has been significantly in excess of normal. Lots of ground is saturated and so as soon as there's another downpour...

a) the railway would have sorted out a "problem culvert" by transferring teams, if necessary, to work on it, they wouldn't have allowed a main arterial route to be vulnerable for long
I am sure Network Rail are putting all available resources on the job. But for example a lot of recent failures have involved continuous landslips. You can't start fixing those until they stop moving.

In BR or steam days there were a lot more gangers etc. per track mile. Labour costs have gone up and so that is no longer practical, and with modern track systems it isn't routinely necessary. The railway is already accused of being inefficient in many quarters, so it could hardly justify having thousands of people on standby across the network just in case.

b) if necessary, the G&SW route would have been intensively used via diversions of the scheduled WCML, not by posting a notice saying "no trains between Carlisle and Scotland" and hoping nobody thinks of using this line
Fine if you have a load of compatible diesel locos sitting around at Glasgow and Carlisle waiting for action, along with drivers. But see the above point re: efficiency - it's perfectly possible to do, but would cost a lot of money, so it's not worthwhile for the handful of times each year it happens.

Basically this is an admission that in the UK we can actually do without even key train services if the weather's not fine and we can't be bothered solving infrastructure issues in a timely manner.
Certainly during the current restrictions there are very few long distance passengers and so rail replacement coaches, along with a limited number of diverted trains, can handle all passengers perfectly well.

The key advantage of the railway along this corridor is that it is a lot quicker than driving. And so even if services are disrupted right now, there is certainly a long term future for the line. The same could sadly not be said of all lines.

Good job we've got airlines
Those would be the same airlines that are operating barely any flights at the moment? Not much of an alternative.

and motorway, eh?
See above - much slower during normal times. A perfectly decent option during disruption of course.
 

6Z09

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Would the astronomical sums going to be spent on HS2 not be better going to the current network to solve all these network wide earthwork problems?

"A lot of the network is vulnerable to poor weather conditions". Well, yes. But storms and high winds in February are not exactly unknown in the UK, and I may be wrong but surely in BR days, or steam days at least:

a) the railway would have sorted out a "problem culvert" by transferring teams, if necessary, to work on it, they wouldn't have allowed a main arterial route to be vulnerable for long
b) if necessary, the G&SW route would have been intensively used via diversions of the scheduled WCML, not by posting a notice saying "no trains between Carlisle and Scotland" and hoping nobody thinks of using this line

Basically this is an admission that in the UK we can actually do without even key train services if the weather's not fine and we can't be bothered solving infrastructure issues in a timely manner. Good job we've got airlines and motorway, eh?
Good job we have Citylink ,over the recent years it's been the bus taking the strain, not the train.
 

_toommm_

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The service from Leeds has just been terminated at Armathwaite due to adverse weather conditions. Wonder what’s happening on the short section?

EDIT: Looks to be a fallen tree according to the signal diagrams, just before London Road Jn.:

65F4D6B7-D3B7-4161-AC7F-C8A68442BC40.png
 

Bald Rick

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"A lot of the network is vulnerable to poor weather conditions". Well, yes. But storms and high winds in February are not exactly unknown in the UK, and I may be wrong but surely in BR days, or steam days at least:

a) the railway would have sorted out a "problem culvert" by transferring teams, if necessary, to work on it, they wouldn't have allowed a main arterial route to be vulnerable for long
b) if necessary, the G&SW route would have been intensively used via diversions of the scheduled WCML, not by posting a notice saying "no trains between Carlisle and Scotland" and hoping nobody thinks of using this line

Basically this is an admission that in the UK we can actually do without even key train services if the weather's not fine and we can't be bothered solving infrastructure issues in a timely manner. Good job we've got airlines and motorway, eh?

For goodness sake. Do you really think that railway staff aren’t doing their utmost to get the line back open? Do you not realise how your comments could be perceived to insulting to them?

And, we can do without key train services when there’s next to no one using them.
 

InOban

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During and after the decades of managed decline infrastructure maintenance was, I think, a case of 'make do and mend'. Now it's been realised that this is more expensive in the long run. It is better to do a 'proper job'. I'm sure the recent parapet failure on the Aberdeen route could have had a temporary fix, if only a speed limit. Instead they've made a permanent repair. In the same way this culvert near Beattock needs a planned solution which takes time to prepare and deliver.
 

QueensCurve

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I believe a voyager left Carlisle to go over the south western at around 1115. It was planned to anyway.

A pair of class 156s. Realtime Trains - 1L54 1112 Carlisle to Glasgow Central

During and after the decades of managed decline infrastructure maintenance was, I think, a case of 'make do and mend'. Now it's been realised that this is more expensive in the long run. It is better to do a 'proper job'. I'm sure the recent parapet failure on the Aberdeen route could have had a temporary fix, if only a speed limit. Instead they've made a permanent repair. In the same way this culvert near Beattock needs a planned solution which takes time to prepare and deliver.

British Rail did, to an extent, see their role as managing decline with "rationalisation" - stripping out capacity that was no longer needed - as a common practice.

British rail also had good administration of their assets. They knew the condition of a piece of infrastructure and often reduced the linespeed to keep it open while deferring renewal

On the Maryport and Carlisle between Currrock Junction and Carlisle linespeed has been 10mph for as long as I can remember. The 1960 sectional appendix has it at 15mph.
 

PHILIPE

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A pair of class 156s. Realtime Trains - 1L54 1112 Carlisle to Glasgow Central



British Rail did, to an extent, see their role as managing decline with "rationalisation" - stripping out capacity that was no longer needed - as a common practice.

British rail also had good administration of their assets. They knew the condition of a piece of infrastructure and often reduced the linespeed to keep it open while deferring renewal

On the Maryport and Carlisle between Currrock Junction and Carlisle linespeed has been 10mph for as long as I can remember. The 1960 sectional appendix has it at 15mph.

1L54 is a booked service (ScR). There was an Avanti bus arranged to leave Carlisle at that time
 

yorkie

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Let's stick to the matter in hand please

If anyone has any ideas regarding how they think incidents of this nature can be better dealt with, please feel free to post your proposals in Speculative Ideas.

Thanks :)
 

Mcr Warrior

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Did the expected flooding actually happen?

And when is the WCML in the area expected to be back open again?
 

Scotrail314209

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I'm guessing that the pre-planning was involved as the Lamington Viaduct came down in similar conditions.
 

NI 271

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The service from Leeds has just been terminated at Armathwaite due to adverse weather conditions. Wonder what’s happening on the short section?

EDIT: Looks to be a fallen tree according to the signal diagrams, just before London Road Jn.:

View attachment 91289
Yep, it fell across the down line, very considerately not fouling the up (but only by maybe 2-3 feet).
 
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