WCML disruption Preston to Lancaster 27/11/19

[Mitchell Hurd]

There were people who'd set off from London/Birmingham first thing and didn't get off the trains until they were dragged back to Preston at 3pm/4pm in the afternoon, after being stationery for 3/4/5 hours in the affected area. More personal reports are being broadcast on local radio this morning. One guy was complaining that when they were finally dragged back to Preston (after having to wait for trains behind them to be dragged back), they were told to go to the back of the huge queue for replacement buses (1 hour plus on the road outside the station) - saying they didn't even let them "jump the queue" to get on a sooner bus. That kind of thing is completely out of order, just making a bad situation even worse. After being trapped for so long, they should have been waved straight onto a bus, or better still, a taxi to compensate!

Right. The link says 'West Coast Mainline passengers stranded for hours' but one link says 7 - not this one though...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...gwAA&usg=AOvVaw2vZtqkbNldRKjETxByNYx-&ampcf=1

I'm sorry but a very unacceptable experience of passengers waiting 7 hours in a train is enough to put some people off train travelling.
Surely passengers could have been moved hours earlier?

It's ok train operators saying things like 'We apologise to those affected' or 'We'll get you moving as quickly as possible' etc but a few, 5 or more hours is not as quickly as possible.

I just hope on my first trip to Scotland next year that I'm not stuck on a CrossCountry train on the East Coast Mainline for 5 or more hours because of a power failure.

 

[Scousemouse]

Arent cross country diesel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It takes however long it takes.

Absolute rubbish. More provision of contingency teams for evacuations is clearly possible. As is the carrying of emergency toilet facilities (Google it, there's plenty on the market for campers, festivals etc), and making all the food and drink (though not alcohol) free.

4 hours is a disgrace.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arent cross country diesel?

They are, but that's little use if a stranded EMU is stuck both sides. Of course in a sensible world they'd be able to buffer up and shove each other out of the way. (Pendolinos and Voyagers can, but if you've got TPE behind...)

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

As I often think on similar threads, we take replacement buses and coaches so much for granted. Once again, they seem to have got this well sorted, once they were called out.
Just imagine if there were no buses or drivers so readily available !

Completely agree - I was surprised just how many replacement coaches they'd scrambled together. The last time I experienced this, at a similar time of day about 2 years ago, after finding half a dozen coaches and sending them all off northwards that seemed to exhaust the local supply and there was a wait of at least an hour before a decision to start using taxis (a very inefficient way of moving hundreds of passengers, many with large suitcases meaning that often not all the taxi seats were available for people to sit on, being full of luggage). Then when we got to Carlisle, the last trains north had already gone, and even more taxis had to be scrambled for even more hundreds of passengers. I ended up navigating for a lovely Blackburn taxi driver who admitted he'd never been north of the Lake District in his life!

 

[Grumpy Git]

Just as a matter of interest, how many Thunderbird locos would be needed on standby in the entire network, if there was one stabled approx. every 100 miles apart?

That would mean in effect a broken down train was only ever 50 miles from a loco (averaged out based on the above assumption), so roughly one hour maximum from being rescued.

 

[underbank]

Just as a matter of interest, how many Thunderbird locos would be needed on standby in the entire network, if there was one stabled approx. every 100 miles apart?

That would mean in effect a broken down train was only ever 50 miles from a loco (averaged out based on the above assumption), so roughly one hour maximum from being rescued.

I don't think it's just a matter of distance, it's also a matter of alternative routes, numbers of tracks, station track layouts, etc. Some places are going to be more/less affected by an infrastructure (or train) failure than others. Using distance only is a bit of a blunt tool for a complex problem.

Crewe to Preston is only 60 miles. Carlisle to Lancaster is 70 miles. The Thunderbirds were at Crewe and Carlisle, so not really that much more than your suggested average 50 miles, but they still took far too long to be mobilised and arrive - 3 to 4 hours before they were both on site, coupled and dragging the affected trains back to Preston/Lancaster respectively. The Carlisle one seemed to get stuck at Oxenholme for quite a while as there was a stationary train in front of it.

I think yesterday (and the similar incident in Summer) shows a Thunderbird is needed at Preston. It's not just distance that matters. Where you have only 2 lines with limited crossovers and stations without passing loops (i.e. Preston and northbound), and no realistic alternative routes, scope is very limited and the longer the distance, the more chance of obstructions etc to add to the travel time. Of course, the longer the time, the more chance of more and more trains blocking the route too.

 

[underbank]

Deleted

 

[sprinterguy]

Running smoothly on my way north to Edinburgh on 9S60, the 13:53 departure from Preston, this afternoon. There were a lot of disgruntled TPE passengers from the cancelled 12:26 Man Picc - Edinburgh train on my connecting Northern service from Manchester looking to book new tickets for this Virgin service north from Preston, but fortunately the train manager is announcing that displaced TPE passengers are welcome (And I was booked on the Virgin service in the first place). Temporary Speed Restriction in place through the affected area South of Lancaster for electric traction heading northbound at the least, with drivers being talked past two signals.

 

[Peter0124]

Here's a video of 57307 dragging 390006 past Newton (Lanark) station today, roughly 5 minutes away from Polmadie Depot where it is currently located.
Noticeable in the video, the cab door of 390006 has been left open and the unit has it's pantograph down.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It takes however long it takes. I'm sure that nobody is sat in a control room delaying things on purpose. We all know that the WCML is stupidly congested, underfunded (like everything else on the railway), and stretched to breaking point - frankly it's a wonder things don't go wrong more often.

That is absolutely hilarious. It couldn't be more wrong if a 4 year old had typed it.

 

[43066]

That is absolutely hilarious. It couldn't be more wrong if a 4 year old had typed it.

Looks sensible enough to me!

Which bit do you disagree with, and why?

 

[Llanigraham]

Crewe to Preston is only 60 miles. Carlisle to Lancaster is 70 miles. The Thunderbirds were at Crewe and Carlisle, so not really that much more than your suggested average 50 miles, but they still took far too long to be mobilised and arrive - 3 to 4 hours before they were both on site, coupled and dragging the affected trains back to Preston/Lancaster respectively. The Carlisle one seemed to get stuck at Oxenholme for quite a while as there was a stationary train in front of it.

Have you considered that there might not have been drivers available? That they have had to be driven in from somewhere else?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Have you considered that there might not have been drivers available? That they have had to be driven in from somewhere else?

.................... which is all part of the same problem. If you don't have spare loco's you are not going to have spare drivers.

 

[underbank]

Have you considered that there might not have been drivers available? That they have had to be driven in from somewhere else?

You have that problem however many rescue locos you have and wherever they're placed.

 

[37057]

My memory might not be 100% but I recall back in the early North Wales coast Pendolino days a Thunderbird loco used to stable at Llandudno Junction with a driver staying with it. Stand to be corrected if wrong.

 

[Grumpy Git]

There was a light GBRF class 59 in bay platform 8 one afternoon at Crewe earlier this year whilst I was waiting to change. It had a driver and was ticking over, would this be a Thunderbird?

It was in very clean condition too which is nice to see.

 

[ExRes]

There was a light GBRF class 59 in bay platform 8 one afternoon at Crewe earlier this year whilst I was waiting to change. It had a driver and was ticking over, would this be a Thunderbird?

It was in very clean condition too which is nice to see.

Never say never, but I think it's unlikely that a 60mph loco without ETS would be used as a Thunderbird other than in desperate circumstances

 

[Grumpy Git]

Never say never, but I think it's unlikely that a 60mph loco without ETS would be used as a Thunderbird other than in desperate circumstances

Ahh, never thought about ETS!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Completely agree - I was surprised just how many replacement coaches they'd scrambled together. The last time I experienced this, at a similar time of day about 2 years ago, after finding half a dozen coaches and sending them all off northwards that seemed to exhaust the local supply and there was a wait of at least an hour before a decision to start using taxis (a very inefficient way of moving hundreds of passengers, many with large suitcases meaning that often not all the taxi seats were available for people to sit on, being full of luggage). Then when we got to Carlisle, the last trains north had already gone, and even more taxis had to be scrambled for even more hundreds of passengers. I ended up navigating for a lovely Blackburn taxi driver who admitted he'd never been north of the Lake District in his life!

The upside of taxis is that you can pretty much always get them - a journey like that will give them their week's wages in one go, they aren't constrained by working hours (though some would argue they should be) etc.

 

[Mountain Man]

BR would have diverted via the S&C. I hope that a more joined-up railway will again do so in the future.

Enlighten us, how would BR have diverted a Pendolino down the S&C? Using fairy dust power?

If you're going to try and exploit a very difficult day for grubby political purposes, at least make it feasible

 

[Bletchleyite]

Enlighten us, how would BR have diverted a Pendolino down the S&C? Using fairy dust power?

Well, if they hadn't got shut of the Thunderbirds...

FWIW, for this sort of reason I think Avanti should order all bi-modes and not some bi-mode, some EMU.

 

[Mountain Man]

There is something called contingency planning which BR was very good at but which the privatised railway seems incapable of doing.

As far as I can tell, the contingency planning yesterday was excellent.

 

[Grumpy Git]

As far as I can tell, the contingency planning yesterday was excellent.

From a personal point of view, I'd much rather stay on a diverted train with whatever traction was available to drag it if required. This would be doubly true if I had family with me

 

[AndrewE]

Enlighten us, how would BR have diverted a Pendolino down the S&C? Using fairy dust power?
If you're going to try and exploit a very difficult day for grubby political purposes, at least make it feasible

By diesel-hauling. It was absolutely routine for diversions to get round engineering works week in week out. I know, I programmed the traincrews for them. The ownership of a fleet of freight and passenger diesel locos, plus crews with route knowledge meant that the one single company responsible for delivering passengers to their destinations took its obligations seriously and got on with the job.
We would often ask for a "C" (traincrew) stop on diverted trains for a relief or conductor driver or guard to board where route knowledge ran out. Conductor drivers and guards dealt with the situation where traction and route knowledge didn't coincide.

 

[Mathew S]

That is absolutely hilarious. It couldn't be more wrong if a 4 year old had typed it.

Well I'm glad I gave you a good laugh. When you've finished perhaps you might like to say exactly what it is you don't agree with? Unless, of course, you know that it's correct, but just doesn't support your opinion that everything was better when the world was brown and white and people walked slightly too quickly..

 

[Ianno87]

By diesel-hauling. It was absolutely routine for diversions to get round engineering works week in week out. I know, I programmed the traincrews for them. The ownership of a fleet of freight and passenger diesel locos, plus crews with route knowledge meant that the one single company responsible for delivering passengers to their destinations took its obligations seriously and got on with the job.
We would often ask for a "C" (traincrew) stop on diverted trains for a relief or conductor driver or guard to board where route knowledge ran out. Conductor drivers and guards dealt with the situation where traction and route knowledge didn't coincide.

1) BR had many, many fewer trains and passengers to deal with (particularly on this section of route) than today

2) Engineering works (which are planned) a a very different kettle of fish to unplanned events like yesterday

3) BR had a bigger pool of resources sitting around to do such things (with the cost that comes with it)

4) As far as I can tell, the focus yesterday was very much on "delivering passengers to their destinations"... using the fastest means possible. Buses. Not a pleasant sedate elongated amble over Blea Moor.

 

[JonathanH]

Well, if they hadn't got shut of the Thunderbirds...

FWIW, for this sort of reason I think Avanti should order all bi-modes and not some bi-mode, some EMU.

Why? Until such time as electricity is free and doesn't pollute the environment, you are suggesting that the trains use more electricity than they need to lugging diesel engines around when they don't need to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Until such time as electricity is free and doesn't pollute the environment, you are suggesting that the trains use more electricity than they need to lugging diesel engines around when they don't need to.

Resilience, as already pointed out. Trains are heavy anyway, the diesel lump doesn't make a significant difference. The Voyagers have been very useful to VT for planned diversions - a few more diesel-capable units would further enhance that capability. The overall emissions will be better anyway as the Voyager replacements will be mostly run on electricity under the wires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I'm glad I gave you a good laugh. When you've finished perhaps you might like to say exactly what it is you don't agree with?

Any suggestion that 4 hours to evacuate is anything approaching acceptable would be a start.

We can add to that
- The lack of emergency toilet provision (as I said you can buy them on Amazon for camping and festivals for next to nowt - Google "bog in a bag" for one example)
- The lack of free refreshments
- The lack of door barriers to allow doors to be opened for ventilation (why are these not mandatory on ALL rolling stock that doesn't have emergency windows?)

Any more? Locking people on failed trains for long periods is not acceptable. More needs to be spent on quicker evacuation when you know the train won't be movable any time soon (which is glaringly obvious as soon as the driver sees bits of OHLE bouncing off his windscreen) and on passenger conditions when it does happen.

Of course, this is another argument for bi-modes or at least having one diesel per unit to provide hotel power if not traction (or maybe traction up to 5mph to get out of trouble). If the pantograph gets ripped off, run up the diesels and at least you can have a wee and a cup of tea while you wait.

It might be that that is how long it takes under current arrangements but that simply confirms that the current arrangements are beyond inadequate.