WCML Electrification Overruns

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
Moderator note - split from this thread

Don't know about signs, but there is no overrun towards Wallgate.
That phase of WCML electrification (1974) did not go in for overlaps, there was not one even towards Liverpool at Springs Branch.
I think the major one towards Manchester at Euxton Jn was the same.
The connections towards the L&Y route south of Wigan NW are only single track, and carried next to no traffic for many years.


The only overlaps North of Weaver Junction as far as I'm aware are/were:

-Earlestown (Towards Liverpool from Manchester)
-Parkside Jn (towards Mancheater)
-Fylde Jn (towards Blackpool)
-At Carstairs, a short distance towards Edinburgh was also electrified, though that may have been to a straight termination, purely as a headshunt.

A short distance was wired at the following locations for loco changeovers:
-Carnforth (towards Barrow)
-Farington Jn (towards Lostock Hall Jn)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
6,902
The only overlaps North of Weaver Junction as far as I'm aware are/were:

-Earlestown (Towards Liverpool from Manchester)
-Parkside Jn (towards Mancheater)
-Fylde Jn (towards Blackpool)
-At Carstairs, a short distance towards Edinburgh was also electrified, though that may have been to a straight termination, purely as a headshunt.

A short distance was wired at the following locations for loco changeovers:
-Carnforth (towards Barrow)
-Farington Jn (towards Lostock Hall Jn)

I would expect WCML overruns at Earlestown, Parkside and Carstairs to have disappeared now under NW wiring surely. Flayde presumably is for Blackpool South and I seem to recall that this does have an overrun.

Of the other two Farington is used for loco changes (as noted) by Railtours as for Lostock Hall hasn't that overrun gone with wiring between Bolton and Manchester?
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,520
Location
Peterborough
I would expect WCML overruns at Earlestown, Parkside and Carstairs to have disappeared now under NW wiring surely. Flayde presumably is for Blackpool South and I seem to recall that this does have an overrun.

Of the other two Farington is used for loco changes (as noted) by Railtours as for Lostock Hall hasn't that overrun gone with wiring between Bolton and Manchester?
The Lostock Hall overrun is still there. (Photo here, taken 16/9/21: https://flic.kr/p/2mrpofc)
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
I would expect WCML overruns at Earlestown, Parkside and Carstairs to have disappeared now under NW wiring surely.

Correct; the eventual extension did not re-use them and provided new equipment.

Flayde presumably is for Blackpool South and I seem to recall that this does have an overrun.

Fylde Jn is the junction immediately north of Preston where the Blackpool line diverges, and the first couple of hundred metres was provided with headspans with 'PB' codes in the 1974 electrification.

Blackpool South does have a short overrun at Kirkham, but terminates just short of the platform at Kirkham (the platform now has no onward access to Blackpool North, only to Blackpool South)

Of the other two Farington is used for loco changes (as noted) by Railtours as for Lostock Hall hasn't that overrun gone with wiring between Bolton and Manchester?

The overrun from Farington to Lostock Hall (not to be confused with Lostock near Bolton) is still there and used for railtours primarily.
 

507020

Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
472
Location
Southport
I would expect WCML overruns at Earlestown, Parkside and Carstairs to have disappeared now under NW wiring surely. Flayde presumably is for Blackpool South and I seem to recall that this does have an overrun.

Of the other two Farington is used for loco changes (as noted) by Railtours as for Lostock Hall hasn't that overrun gone with wiring between Bolton and Manchester?
Surely the one at Carstairs went in the ECML electrification 30 years earlier.
Fylde Jn is the junction immediately north of Preston where the Blackpool line diverges, and the first couple of hundred metres was provided with headspans with 'PB' codes in the 1974 electrification.

Blackpool South does have a short overrun at Kirkham, but terminates just short of the platform at Kirkham (the platform now has no onward access to Blackpool North, only to Blackpool South)
Kirkham & Wesham now having the same platform layout as Oxenholme of course.
The overrun from Farington to Lostock Hall (not to be confused with Lostock near Bolton) is still there and used for railtours primarily.
Lostock Hall being on the unelectrified line to Blackburn, not Bolton, where Lostock Junction is. Also of note is Lostock Gralam on the Mid Cheshire line.
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
3,270
Location
N Yorks
What's the purpose of these overruns? Is it in case an electric train is wrongly signalled and so (a) the overhead is not damaged by a pantograph 'falling off' the overhead and (b) the train can get back on the overhead, or is it to make later electrification easier, i.e not affecting the existing wiring?
Or both!
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
16,190
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I think the overrun at Carnforth only goes as far as mid-platform in the Down direction, and nothing on the Up, so EMUs can't terminate/reverse there.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
What's the purpose of these overruns? Is it in case an electric train is wrongly signalled and so (a) the overhead is not damaged by a pantograph 'falling off' the overhead and (b) the train can get back on the overhead, or is it to make later electrification easier, i.e not affecting the existing wiring?
Or both!

Either:
-Prevent damage in the event of wrong-routeing, or
-Make future electrification easier, or
-For a specific purpose such as permitting a diesel/electric loco change off the main line

Kirkham & Wesham now having the same platform layout as Oxenholme of course.

Never thought of it like that, but you're right (well, almost, the Blackpool South line can access more than one platform at Kirkham, whereas Windermere is only able to access one platform at Oxenholme).
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
6,902

plugwash

Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
635
Kirkham & Wesham now having the same platform layout as Oxenholme of course.
At least on tracksy they look rather different.

At oxenholme platforms 1 and 2 are used for the mainline with platform 3 for the branch.

On the other hand at Kirkham, it looks like westbound traffic is split with platform 1 for blackpool south and platform 2 primerally for blackpool north but eastbound traffic has to use platform 3 (unless it's going to run wrong line all the way to Preston Fylde Junction) regardless of where it came from.

The Kirkham layout seems superior to me as it allows a train to wait in the station for the previous train to come off the branch, Whereas at oxenholme it would have to wait in a loop outside the station.
 
Last edited:

themiller

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2011
Messages
840
Location
Cumbria, UK
I think the overrun at Carnforth only goes as far as mid-platform in the Down direction, and nothing on the Up, so EMUs can't terminate/reverse there.
From memory and a quick confirmation search on the internet, the wiring goes through the down platform to enable locos to deposit their trains in the avoiding line behind the down platform and run round - unless this has changed recently.
 
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
70
Location
Furness
Don't know about signs, but there is no overrun towards Wallgate.
That phase of WCML electrification (1974) did not go in for overlaps, there was not one even towards Liverpool at Springs Branch.
I think the major one towards Manchester at Euxton Jn was the same.
The connections towards the L&Y route south of Wigan NW are only single track, and carried next to no traffic for many years.
I think there might have been a sign , going back to the days when the goods yard was in use for Royal Mail / Parcels till the mid to late 1980's. I think it was visible when the DMU from Liverpool lurched across into Platform 3. I don't have any recollection of any overrun.
The sidings are long gone and there is a multi storey car park so I doubt the sign is still there.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
From memory and a quick confirmation search on the internet, the wiring goes through the down platform to enable locos to deposit their trains in the avoiding line behind the down platform and run round - unless this has changed recently.

Correct; goes as far as a headshunt beyond the access into West Coast Rail.

It's is the Up platform that is only part-electrified (to enable an electric to draw on to the front of a train in the platform)
 

alangla

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,149
Location
Glasgow
-For a specific purpose such as permitting a diesel/electric loco change off the main line
Also, there used to be an overrun onto the Coatbridge Central to Gartcosh line that was there to allow electric Freightliner trains to run onto the chord & then reverse into Gartsherrie FLT. Not really relevant now the chord is fully electrified but still the only booked electric traffic over it as far as I know.
 

zwk500

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
2,468
Location
Milton Keynes
https://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/105294571 From the photo at the above URL, it appears that it's the down (Barrow bound) platform with is wired.
Which is what Ianno87 was saying - Both Down Platform and Down Furness goods are electrified as far as the headshunt to allow an electric to runround. the Up platform only has a teeny bit of overrun to allow an electric to couple up to the London end of a train and take it forward to Preston (out of sight in the photo behind the train).

EDIT: Photo at this url: https://www.picfair.com/pics/07176578-carnforth-station shows the Up platform OLE.
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
3,270
Location
N Yorks
Which is what Ianno87 was saying - Both Down Platform and Down Furness goods are electrified as far as the headshunt to allow an electric to runround. the Up platform only has a teeny bit of overrun to allow an electric to couple up to the London end of a train and take it forward to Preston (out of sight in the photo behind the train).

EDIT: Photo at this url: https://www.picfair.com/pics/07176578-carnforth-station shows the Up platform OLE.
When was the last electric train to use that facility?
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,520
Location
Peterborough
Now that this thread covers WCML OLE overruns in a more general sense, and with decarbonisation and global warming *literally* a hot topic, I'd like to confess my confusion as to the overruns in the Nuneaton area.

Personally, I'm more than a little baffled as to why OLE wasn't extended down the North Chord during construction. I've a hunch it made it in at GRIP 3 (maybe GRIP 4), but got descoped at GRIP 5.
I know P6/P7 had to have OLE as there were alterations made to Nuneaton South Jn as part of the work (including a two-track overrun towards Hinckley), but I'm surprised the powers that be didn't action the OLE to be joined up with the legacy overrun that ends just shy of Nuneaton Abbey Jn (with that one being extended).
Does the overbridge at Midland Rd (B4114, formerly the A47) pose a problem?
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
When was the last electric train to use that facility?

Lancaster terminating Pendolinos used to use the Goods Loop at the back of the Down Barrow platform.

Now that this thread covers WCML OLE overruns in a more general sense, and with decarbonisation and global warming *literally* a hot topic, I'd like to confess my confusion as to the overruns in the Nuneaton area.

Personally, I'm more than a little baffled as to why OLE wasn't extended down the North Chord during construction. I've a hunch it made it in at GRIP 3 (maybe GRIP 4), but got descoped at GRIP 5.
I know P6/P7 had to have OLE as there were alterations made to Nuneaton South Jn as part of the work (including a two-track overrun towards Hinckley), but I'm surprised the powers that be didn't action the OLE to be joined up with the legacy overrun that ends just shy of Nuneaton Abbey Jn (with that one being extended).
Does the overbridge at Midland Rd (B4114, formerly the A47) pose a problem?

What would it be for? The North Chord is only accessible from Platform 7, and the only way to get an electric train into that is via a Shunt Move or the bi-di from Rugby. And going bi-di to Down WCML is possible on the existing WCML ladders anyway.

You *could* do it...but it is extra cost for virtually no usable benefit.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
1,900
Location
County Durham
Don't know whether this would count as an overrun or not, but the headshunt for the first few hundred metres of the Newcastle/S&C lines from Carlisle is electrified. It's of very little use to electric trains given it's location, and (in recent years at least) has only been rarely used by electric trains during disruption, most recently used by 91130 off the GBRF tour, itself an unplanned diversion!
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,520
Location
Peterborough
Lancaster terminating Pendolinos used to use the Goods Loop at the back of the Down Barrow platform.



What would it be for? The North Chord is only accessible from Platform 7, and the only way to get an electric train into that is via a Shunt Move or the bi-di from Rugby. And going bi-di to Down WCML is possible on the existing WCML ladders anyway.

You *could* do it...but it is extra cost for virtually no usable benefit.
Literally the only reason why I'd do it would be to make wiring towards Birmingham/Leicester easier :lol:
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
1,509
Location
Wilmslow
I think the overrun at Carnforth only goes as far as mid-platform in the Down direction, and nothing on the Up, so EMUs can't terminate/reverse there.
In 1974 there was an EMU service to Carnforth, not advertised, although of course the layout and wiring may have changed since then! I posted more details in #56
 

Mollman

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
842
When was the last electric train to use that facility?
There have been a few railtours over summer that swapped from electric to steam at Carnforth

The Cumbrian Mountain Express (Railway Touring Company)​

  • 86259 London Euston (pu) - Watford Junction (by service train to Milton Keynes) (pu) - Milton Keynes Central (pu) - Northampton (by service train to Rugby) (pu) - Rugby (pu) - Nuneaton (pu) - Crewe (pu) - Preston (pu) - Carnforth
  • Carnforth Steam Pool Carnforth - Shap - Carlisle
  • Carnforth Steam Pool Carlisle - Shap - Preston (sd) -
  • 86259 Preston - Crewe (sd) - Nuneaton (sd) - Rugby (sd) - Northampton (sd) - (by service train from Rugby) - Milton Keynes Central (sd) - Watford Junction (sd) - (by service train from Milton Keynes Central) - London Euston
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
3,719
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Before the Cross City Line was electrified, there was an overrun at Birmingham New Street into the tunnel heading to Five Ways, complete with a loco stop board and preceding warning board at the tunnel portal.

I did see on various occasions a Class 86/87 loco that would shunt into the tunnel before coming back onto Platform 6/7 to couple to MkII or III coaching stock of a South West - North West/Preston/Scotland train after the Class 47 had uncoupled.
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
3,270
Location
N Yorks
Before the Cross City Line was electrified, there was an overrun at Birmingham New Street into the tunnel heading to Five Ways, complete with a loco stop board and preceding warning board at the tunnel portal.

I did see on various occasions a Class 86/87 loco that would shunt into the tunnel before coming back onto Platform 6/7 to couple to MkII or III coaching stock of a South West - North West/Preston/Scotland train after the Class 47 had uncoupled.
I remember that stop board. when the wires went live they removed the stop board but the light remained, illuminating part of the tunnel wall!
 

Mollman

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
842
Trains swapping at Carnforth for Shap will use the Goods Loops south of the station, not the platforms.
Yes, but as commented elsewhere the electric loco will draw into the platform to allow the steam loco to come off shed.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
Yes, but as commented elsewhere the electric loco will draw into the platform to allow the steam loco to come off shed.

Good point; from Goods Loop 1 a released loco can only access the Platforms or the WCML, you cannot get to the Goods Loop.
 

Top