WCML Future Routes

[SkinnyDave]

I have read the DFT bidding document for the WCML Franchise and its mentions that once eletrification is complete there may be options to operate from Glasgow to Manchester and also to Liverpool with the latter being through Preston.


Does anyone think these routes will come into force?? as I personally would much prefer to travel to Manchester via Virgin(Or whoever it may be) rather than TPE. I think this would be a very popular route for the next franchise owner.

From an operations route would it be the Glasgow Drivers doing the whole journey instead of climbing off at Preston?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Something like this was mentioned in the budget today. There'd probably be an intermediate call at Wigan NW and maybe one at Oxford Road.
I don't get how you said "the latter being through Preston" as both would stop at Preston to make a call at Wigan and to keep passenger levels healthy. TPE would pose fierce competition and I can expect a fierce rivalry if this takes place.
As far as I know though, Preston will stay as a Virgin switching point as Manchester OR or Piccadilly aren't managed by Virgin.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Something like this was mentioned in the budget today. There'd probably be an intermediate call at Wigan NW and maybe one at Oxford Road.
I don't get how you said "the latter being through Preston" as both would stop at Preston to make a call at Wigan and to keep passenger levels healthy. TPE would pose fierce competition and I can expect a fierce rivalry if this takes place.
As far as I know though, Preston will stay as a Virgin switching point as Manchester OR or Piccadilly aren't managed by Virgin.

Yeah my bad with Preston I was reading elsewhere that you Virgin may be able to do a direct run from Glasgow to Liverpool via Preston, the Manchester one I wasnt thinking as I typed. Surely they wouldnt have a Preston driver to take over Liverpool service unless it was going onwards to Euston??

 

[northwichcat]

The proposed Manchester-Scotland timetable is here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...123 may 14 timetable - scotland and nw sx.pdf

It's proposed that in the future around half the Manchester-Scotland services will carry a Liverpool portion north of Preston.

 

[Zoe]

As far as I know though, Preston will stay as a Virgin switching point as Manchester OR or Piccadilly aren't managed by Virgin.

Having a different company manage a station does not prevent a TOC from having a crew base there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are no plans for the West Coast franchise to do MAN/LIV-Scotland.
They are TP routes at least up to the end of their franchise (2015).

 

[sprinterguy]

I have read the DFT bidding document for the WCML Franchise and its mentions that once eletrification is complete there may be options to operate from Glasgow to Manchester and also to Liverpool with the latter being through Preston.


Does anyone think these routes will come into force?? as I personally would much prefer to travel to Manchester via Virgin(Or whoever it may be) rather than TPE. I think this would be a very popular route for the next franchise owner.

If you are talking about the "Invitation to Tender" document then I presume that you are referring to section 3.3.1.2 "Electrification Schemes" on page 28?

If so, then it does not mention that Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow services will be included in the West Coast franchise, only that:

This will allow electric trains to run between Liverpool and Manchester, as well as enabling electric trains to run from Manchester to Scotland via the West Coast Main Line.

Which just means the electric TPE services that are planned at present with class 350/4 units.

Although I would hope that the Manchester (and Liverpool) to Scotland services will be absorbed into the West Coast franchise at a future point. Is it possible that bidders for the West Coast franchise would be able to state a wish for the North West to Scotland services to be incorporated into the franchise after the end of the present TPE franchise?

 

[swt_passenger]

Something like this was mentioned in the budget today.

You sure about that?

I don't recall him mentioning anything about WCML services...

 

[Zoe]

Although I would hope that the Manchester (and Liverpool) to Scotland services will be absorbed into the West Coast franchise at a future point. Is it possible that bidders for the West Coast franchise would be able to state a wish for the North West to Scotland services to be incorporated into the franchise after the end of the present TPE franchise?

Wasn't the reason for the transfer to TPE that Virgin and XC simply didn't have any stock for the route as the Voyagers were needed by Virgin for a more frequent service to Chester?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There are no plans for the West Coast franchise to do MAN/LIV-Scotland.
They are TP routes at least up to the end of their franchise (2015).

Correct - there is a significant LM train crew depot on Virgins Crewe station.

 

[Bevan Price]

Something like this was mentioned in the budget today. There'd probably be an intermediate call at Wigan NW and maybe one at Oxford Road.
I don't get how you said "the latter being through Preston" as both would stop at Preston to make a call at Wigan and to keep passenger levels healthy. TPE would pose fierce competition and I can expect a fierce rivalry if this takes place.
As far as I know though, Preston will stay as a Virgin switching point as Manchester OR or Piccadilly aren't managed by Virgin.

There have been suggestions that the Euston - Glasgow wervices may become non-stop between Euston & Preston. At least with TPE services going via Wigan, it will retain 2 services per hour to Carlisle & Scotland. I have doubts however that 4 coach Class 350 units will be adequate - 6 coaches would be preferable.

 

[SkinnyDave]

If you are talking about the "Invitation to Tender" document then I presume that you are referring to section 3.3.1.2 "Electrification Schemes" on page 28?

If so, then it does not mention that Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow services will be included in the West Coast franchise,

Which just means the electric TPE services that are planned at present with class 350/4 units.

Although I would hope that the Manchester (and Liverpool) to Scotland services will be absorbed into the West Coast franchise at a future point. Is it possible that bidders for the West Coast franchise would be able to state a wish for the North West to Scotland services to be incorporated into the franchise after the end of the present TPE franchise?

Agreed but the document does state that " bidders should consider the opportunities and risks that these schemes represent" I would prefer Virgin/Franchise owner to get these routes myself.

 

[PhilipW]

It's proposed that in the future around half the Manchester-Scotland services will carry a Liverpool portion north of Preston.

With only 10 new Class 350s ordered, there is no slack to double up north of Preston.

Nice idea ...... but no trains

 

[AlterEgo]

As far as I know though, Preston will stay as a Virgin switching point as Manchester OR or Piccadilly aren't managed by Virgin.

What? Just because a TOC doesn't manage a station doesn't mean they don't have a mess or a base there!

What do you think XC do with their princely total of 0 stations?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Having a different company manage a station does not prevent a TOC from having a crew base there.

...and the fact that Piccadilly isn't the best station for through trains. Preston has a much better VT hub and allows for swifter crew changes, Piccadilly would be packed if VT stopped on 13 and 14 all the time! (13's been used for a EUS train when I was there, it was madness)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

...and the fact that Piccadilly isn't the best station for through trains. Preston has a much better VT hub and allows for swifter crew changes, Piccadilly would be packed if VT stopped on 13 and 14 all the time! (13's been used for a EUS train when I was there, it was madness)

Crew changes can be quick when they need to be - I have known them be done sub-2 mis, and many are booked for just three - the standard amount of time for which many trains call at 13 / 14.

When was the Euston train in MAN p13, I would have thought that was an absolute last resort

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Crew changes can be quick when they need to be - I have known them be done sub-2 mis, and many are booked for just three - the standard amount of time for which many trains call at 13 / 14.

When was the Euston train in MAN p13, I would have thought that was an absolute last resort

Even worse is that it was non-stop. Must have been a diversion from Glasgow calling at Preston and Manchester (should have been going the other way)
Trust me it was a last resort. There where a pile of trains stuck and the next 15 minutes were carnage.

 

[SkinnyDave]

...and the fact that Piccadilly isn't the best station for through trains. Preston has a much better VT hub and allows for swifter crew changes, Piccadilly would be packed if VT stopped on 13 and 14 all the time! (13's been used for a EUS train when I was there, it was madness)

Woulda Glasgow driver not do a possible Glasgow to Manchester Pic with Manchester driver taking unit down to Euston?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Even worse is that it was non-stop. Must have been a diversion from Glasgow calling at Preston and Manchester (should have been going the other way)
Trust me it was a last resort. There where a pile of trains stuck and the next 15 minutes were carnage.

It was a normal resort then, if it came ex-Preston on diversion. Can't imagine why there was a crew change though, or why it was a booked passenger stop, unless it conveniently timed with a cancelled MAN-EUS train. Unless it ran via Stoke I would imagine the driver ex-Preston would have taken it through to Euston

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Woulda Glasgow driver not do a possible Glasgow to Manchester Pic with Manchester driver taking unit down to Euston?

It will have been non-stop calling at the primary stations or maybe even starting from Lancaster on one of the Lancaster-Preston-Euston services making an extra call at Piccadilly.
On your topic, I doubt that as it would make the standard Preston half-way change.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Woulda Glasgow driver not do a possible Glasgow to Manchester Pic with Manchester driver taking unit down to Euston?

Polmadie men only sign to Preston.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Polmadie men only sign to Preston.

That's the question I'm probably not asking properly, if there were new Glasgow-Manchester and Liverpool services would the Glasgow route card change for the Glasgow men to take the service right down to these new destinations.

Cheers

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's the question I'm probably not asking properly, if there were new Glasgow-Manchester and Liverpool services would the Glasgow route card change for the Glasgow men to take the service right down to these new destinations.

Cheers

It's a pointless discussion as it is not in anybody's West Coast (franchise) plans.
You should be asking about rosters/manning for TPE who actually run the services you are talking about.
Why does it matter anyway?
TPE have already said they will be establishing a new base at Liverpool (for the new 185 services) and (I think) Preston for the 350s.

The WC ITT is merely telling the bidders the fact that there will be new 350-operated services on the line and to take that into account in planning services (eg stopping patterns, less white space in the timetable etc.

Any reorganisation of who runs what service will take place when the Northern/TPE franchises are up for renewal/merger/re-drawing.

 

[SkinnyDave]

It's a pointless discussion as it is not in anybody's West Coast (franchise) plans.
You should be asking about rosters/manning for TPE who actually run the services you are talking about.
Why does it matter anyway?
TPE have already said they will be establishing a new base at Liverpool (for the new 185 services) and (I think) Preston for the 350s.

The WC ITT is merely telling the bidders the fact that there will be new 350-operated services on the line and to take that into account in planning services (eg stopping patterns, less white space in the timetable etc.

Any reorganisation of who runs what service will take place when the Northern/TPE franchises are up for renewal/merger/re-drawing.

Because im intetested in talking about it!

 

[Clip]

Because im intetested in talking about it!

But talking about something that isnt going to happen and will turn this into another fantasy thread... Oh wait a minute...

 

[SkinnyDave]

But talking about something that isnt going to happen and will turn this into another fantasy thread... Oh wait a minute...

I read the ITT document and that was my view on it, I find it hard to believe that the future WCML franchise owner wont seriously look at these potential
Routes when TPE is renewed in 2015 which is only two years into new WCML franchise.
I personally would prefer travelling to Manchester on a Pendolino Service tgat links two major cities on WCML.

It will be interesting to see what happens and the 350 will add badly needed capacity.
Why is Glasgow to Manchester a TPE route and not WCML route anyway?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why is Glasgow to Manchester a TPE route and not WCML route anyway?

Zoe explained the main reason why - in post #9.

It was part of the DfT inspired major remapping and route rationalisation of various franchises, such as newXC, WC, Central and Silverlink that took place in December 2007.

Many people thought TPE ended up with the services as a bit of an afterthought, only because once the XC and WC clockface timetables had been worked out neither of the latter TOCs had enough stock to run the Manchester - Scotland routes as well as their core routes.

I cannot think of any precedents for a TOC deciding to just cherry pick part of another neighbouring franchise in mid term - so unless the DfT makes the decision as part of another of their grand plans it won't happen. In any case, I really don't think there'll be a mechanism in the contract for the WC TOC to propose such a takeover mid-franchise.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Cheers SWT

 

[Waverley125]

I think it would be obviously sensible for Bham-Glasgow Central and MPicc-Glasgow Central to be turned over to the ICWC franchise at the next available opportunity. You would then run Euston-Central as:

Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell

BNS-Central as:

Stafford, Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle,

and Piccadilly-Central as:

Wigan NW, Preston, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell

 

[swt_passenger]

Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh via Preston already are WC franchise routes though.

No-one is much interested in Barnes :roll: to Glasgow though...