WCML InterCity Franchise

[GrimShady]

Yes, we get you are averse to anything Virgin.
You've forgotten the improvement in journey times over the whole WCML from using tilting trains.
There is no other solution which will give you anything similar.
Using Mk3/4 stock would take us back to c2002.

I didn't say tilting trains were a bad idea simply the garbage interior used by the TOC.

Journey times don't concern me as I'd rather a slower comfortable service Vs a short uncomfortable one hence ECML and MK4 or Sleeper on my journeys to London.

 

[pt_mad]

I didn't say tilting trains were a bad idea simply the garbage interior used by the TOC.

Journey times don't concern me as I'd rather a slower comfortable service Vs a short uncomfortable one hence ECML and MK4 or Sleeper on my journeys to London.

To be fair the Pendolino interior ain't half bad compared to today's new build stuff such as ironing board 387s. It's cosmetic stuff which could be improved with tweaking, lighting tweaking, luggage racks being rejigged and more power points meaning people were occupied in their devices so may not even bother about a window view! A general cosmetic facelift, repaint and reduction of yellowing plastic to the grey used in first class would make a lot of difference, something I think we may well see during the WCP.

 

[whhistle]

They have a franchising system that is broken, is under review, significant failings and pensions gaps have been highlighted by the RDG yet they still continue to award franchises whilst trotting out the same childish response to their failings. It is mindless stupidity of the highest order.

What's the answer though?
Continue awarding "management contracts", where the company awarded clearly won't want to invest any money other than the bare minimum.
Staff not knowing what is going on / how secure their roles are.

The system might be broken but may as well award the current competitions and start afresh with the next ones.

If you cancel the competitions money will be refunded to the entrees, which will help nobody.

 

[Wolfie]

I didn't say tilting trains were a bad idea simply the garbage interior used by the TOC.

Journey times don't concern me as I'd rather a slower comfortable service Vs a short uncomfortable one hence ECML and MK4 or Sleeper on my journeys to London.

You might prefer that, which also incidentally could reduce capacity. Most people value their time.
Pendolini aren't perfect but they are still among the best trains on the network and a damn sight better than the DfT inspired 800s.

 

[StaffsWCML]

And the general service levels that are better than most other TOCs seem to offer.

What's the answer though?
Continue awarding "management contracts", where the company awarded clearly won't want to invest any money other than the bare minimum.
Staff not knowing what is going on / how secure their roles are.

The system might be broken but may as well award the current competitions and start afresh with the next ones.

If you cancel the competitions money will be refunded to the entrees, which will help nobody.

But giving out contracts based on a serious flawed system is also not good.

We need to solve the pensions issues properly and make it clear what and what is not expected and how this is deliverable.

I believe the franchises should (as a minimum) be a for longer, perhaps up to 20 years period based upon a performance review at a pre-determined point, this would allow the train operators to plan their investment better, and probably allow for a better network.

At the end of the day now because of the DfTs pensions fiasco, good people at Stagecoach and Virgin WILL be losing their jobs and good facilities will be lost. What could happen in a few years when First and MTR realise their bids are sustainable, services levels will most likely drop and the franchise could fail. This is not in the interests of anyone either.

If you have a review it makes sense to wait until the outcome of that is delivered instead of issuing franchises willy nilly based on whoever offers the most unicorns.

Virgins suggestion of bidding for slots is not a bad idea in my opinion, it would raise competition, increase quality and the government would likely get more bidders and more money. The problem now is you mostly have one operator in one area, if they are rubbish you are stuck with them.

 

[boxy321]

Image is everything to Virgin.

A good example is outside Birmingham International station - there's always (I've never not seen) a billboard from Chiltern saying "Virgin are rubbish, travel Chiltern".
Virgin will never do this to Chiltern. Why? Because they don't want to look like the big bully boy going after the small cheerful little train company chuffing along the track.

It's also worth remembering they have a huge route.
The West Coast is one of the two routes most operators want. Add in a bit of PR and you get a lot more money in your budget for advertising, free bacon butties and flags.
Said it before though, it's amazing that even the VTWC marketing budget is dwarfed by that Virgin Media have.

Virgin gave away free bacon sandwiches outside Moor St from a van when Chiltern stopped their food service. Both companies regularly put posters up outside each other's station 'sledging' each other. It's amusing. EDIT: Sorry just read above, but the van was is new!

 

[The Ham]

I believe the franchises should (as a minimum) be a for longer, perhaps up to 20 years period based upon a performance review at a pre-determined point, this would allow the train operators to plan their investment better, and probably allow for a better network.

If we do that (20 years franchises) there would be to be something to encourage investment beyond the first 5 years.

Yes it could result in more infrastructure, but could lead to 15 years of no new trains even though growth had been significant.

As an example, 3.5% growth would result in a doubling in passenger numbers over 20 years. That would mean that you'd need to aim for about 35% full trains at the beginning of the franchise to ensure that the trains weren't overloaded.

It could be made to work, such as having a rolling stock transfer period every few years where TOC's bid for the use of the available rolling stock with the government or done other body trying to plan for the new rolling stock and the rolling stock which is due to be scrapped.

 

[Elecman]

It could be made to work, such as having a rolling stock transfer period every few years where TOC's bid for the use of the available rolling stock with the government or done other body trying to plan for the new rolling stock and the rolling stock which is due to be scrapped.

Government and Rolling, stock planning new rolling stock they already do and it’s a disaster!!

 

[The Ham]

Government and Rolling, stock planning new rolling stock they already do and it’s a disaster!!

Indeed, I was pointing out what you may have to do if you went for 20 years franchises to ensure that you kept a reasonable level of rolling stock being brought in after the first 5-10 years.

 

[GrimShady]

You might prefer that, which also incidentally could reduce capacity. Most people value their time.
Pendolini aren't perfect but they are still among the best trains on the network and a damn sight better than the DfT inspired 800s.

Best trains in the network is a very subjective statement. I would put the 800s on the same level of modern interior junk.

 

[Wolfie]

Best trains in the network is a very subjective statement. I would put the 800s on the same level of modern interior junk.

Your views on interiors are of course equally subjective. Many ordinary passengers would have an intense dislike for the 60s or earlier horribly unsafe interiors loved by enthusiasts.

 

[GrimShady]

Your views on interiors are of course equally subjective. Many ordinary passengers would have an intense dislike for the 60s or earlier horribly unsafe interiors loved by enthusiasts.

Quite possibly so, Mk4 and Mk3 sleepers are not 60s designs.

 

[whhistle]

What could happen in a few years when First and MTR realise their bids are sustainable, services levels will most likely drop and the franchise could fail.

This is just an assumption though, yes?
Because nobody can say what will happen.
How do you know their bids are unsustainable (assuming that's what you meant?)?
How do you know Virgin won't go bad?

No wonder it's an uphill struggle for companies.
Everyone always seems to assume the worst nearly all the time.

 

[StaffsWCML]

This is just an assumption though, yes?
Because nobody can say what will happen.
How do you know their bids are unsustainable (assuming that's what you meant?)?
How do you know Virgin won't go bad?

No wonder it's an uphill struggle for companies.
Everyone always seems to assume the worst nearly all the time.

Its also an assumption to think otherwise.

Virgin have been burned by making a miscalculation on the East Coast Franchise, look how that worked out. Admittedly Network Rail should also take some of the flak for failing to deliver their part of the bargain.

The government also awarded First an unstainable deal back in 2012, so they have form of messing things up.

Let face the DfT aren't exactly a department with a glowing record of delivering great service for passengers.

They want to shift the pensions liability at whatever cost, if this means a poorer/mediocre service on what has previously been the best rail service in the UK, consistently topping customer satisfaction. I would be immensely surprised if one of this current set of franchises doesn't end up back in public ownership at some point. The system the bids are made on is not fit for purpose, it is not sustainable it is based on cloud cuckoo financials.

If Virgin Service levels are replaced with the likes of First Group service levels, 1st class offering drops in quality then passenger numbers may well decline. Revenues will drop. Virgin know what they are doing on the West Coast, passenger numbers and revenue rise year after year because of 20 years of consistent and improving services. Its a profitable line but it has to be done correctly.

The recent franchises have been issued without any consideration of current performance across the network, they should be forced to deliver on the franchises and promises they have made before being given more.

All train companies need to do is run a reasonable number of trains at reasonable times on time with decent numbers of pleasant staff. Its not difficult yet so many seem to fail to deliver these basics when you look at the satisfaction surveys.

People assume the worst because at best we get mediocracy, people seem to accept this by saying its ok, these companies making billions out of us are 'trying their best' 'its a tough world' 'people assume the worst' 'no wonder its an uphill struggle for them'.

We just want a train to turn up on time! Bad management of certain companies causes very basic things to go wrong!

I am sure British Rail could give us the same level of mediocracy for less money!

 

[hwl]

Admittedly Network Rail should also take some of the flak for failing to deliver their part of the bargain.

NR hadn't actually been authorised or funded to do most of the required work in the required timescales which was a DfT screw up (one bit of DfT not talking to another).

 

[cjmillsnun]

Not so good at SWR either

MTR are also tarred with the SWR experience.
I appreciate that First run the service however MTR is a part owner of the franchise and as such will be tainted as far as customers are concerned.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I wouldn't, I hate IC70s. Put some decent seats in, though...

(OT, but it's such a shame the Mk3s weren't built with the newer seat from the Wessie - indeed the Wessie is basically the Mk3 done to perfection...)

The Wessie WAS the Mk3 done to perfection in NSE/SWT configuration.

Unfortunately Govia spoiled them and First are completely ruining them.

 

[pieguyrob]

To be fair, I can't complain about paying a tenner to get from Glasgow to Preston, and having a carriage to myself on a Pendolino. The toilets may smell, but, they have revolutionised journey times on the WCML.

I think Virgin/Stagecoach will be a loss.

From an enthusiasts point of view, I don't get the problem with First group?

I also don't know enough about RENFE, to pass comment. I believe they are Spanish?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I also don't know enough about RENFE, to pass comment. I believe they are Spanish?

Operates the widest variety of high speed trains in Europe - plain fast clones of TGV and ICE plus Talgo/CAF designs of bi-mode, bi-gauge, bi-current, tilting stock.
Tend to like big but infrequent trains, reservation-only, all luggage scanned prior to boarding (long distance) after Madrid terrorist attack.
I've found them rather fussy and inflexible (eg not letting you change seats), but that might just be circumstance.
Pretty useless web site which can't handle connections for through journeys, OK for point to point and some good advance-type fares.
Biggest operator of Talgo and CAF stock (who are both bidding for HS2).
They operate 3 levels of service: long distance, regional (MD) and Cercanias (local/metro), with no easy transition between the levels.

Poor safety record (notably Santiago de Compostela 2013), along with infrastructure operator ADIF.
Four major high speed lines from Madrid (to Seville/Malaga, Valladolid/Leon, Barcelona/Girona/Perpignan, Valencia/Alacant) and still building.
Beginning to think about competition at home, but currently are the monopoly operator (some separate local operations in self-governing regions).
The Spanish government has got a plan for RENFE privatisation, but it hasn't got very far with it.

PS. I should have said that RENFE have major contracts for operating high speed overseas, notably in Saudi Arabia where they are part of the consortium running the Haramain high speed line (with Talgo stock).
They are also active in high speed rail planning in USA and Latin/South America.

 

[pieguyrob]

Thank you for enlightening me. They don't sound to good.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

When HS2 is open and all principal inter city trains are operated by the new (non tilting) high speed stock, there will be absolutely no justification for (expensive) tilting trains on the WCML.

That would be unfortunate for North Wales <--> London. We finally have ~3:15 journey times between Bangor and Euston. The 9:10 from Euston make the trip to Bangor in 3:07.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be unfortunate for North Wales <--> London. We finally have ~3:15 journey times between Bangor and Euston. The 9:10 from Euston make the trip to Bangor in 3:07.

Perhaps this could be compensated for by offering an all-day hourly service to at least Bangor?

 

[pt_mad]

I would like to think that a really adventurous bid would plan to increase the 9 car sets to 11 by breaking up a couple of the existing 9 car sets and having Alstom reconfigure to all 11 car sets. Of course to do this they need some new trains which could be in the form of bi-mode or just straight electric but they'd need to be tilt capable. How viable all that would be I don't know.

Other than that, the GNWR application could be seen as setting a precident for using the xx33 path with 110mph stock and an overtaking move at Milton Keynes. So perhaps that opens up future pathing options in the 'odd hours' off Euston without needing new tilt capable trains.

 

[RT4038]

Its also an assumption to think otherwise.

All train companies need to do is run a reasonable number of trains at reasonable times on time with decent numbers of pleasant staff. Its not difficult yet so many seem to fail to deliver these basics when you look at the satisfaction surveys.

And you have experience of successfully running a reasonable number of trains at reasonable times on time with decent numbers of pleasant staff? Perhaps you could tell us where?
It clearly is difficult (within the money available), otherwise it would be being done, DIDO.

 

[pt_mad]

An alternative way of looking at it is that people vote with their feet. Supply and demand. If the product didn't meet the requirements, wouldn't passenger numbers start to reduce? Just like they are doing at some shops which are closing. As much as many of us like to moan about lateness the fact remains, compared to the car or the coach to London or Glasgow or Manchester it's just far better to get the train, even if performance is in the late 80 percents on a certain week rather than 90 odd percent as a total example.

 

[RT4038]

An alternative way of looking at it is that people vote with their feet. Supply and demand. If the product didn't meet the requirements, wouldn't passenger numbers start to reduce? Just like they are doing at some shops which are closing. As much as many of us like to moan about lateness the fact remains, compared to the car or the coach to London or Glasgow or Manchester it's just far better to get the train, even if performance is in the late 80 percents on a certain week rather than 90 odd percent as a total example.

Quite. Punctuality is probably no worse now than it has ever been, and is to a certain extent mitigated by much more frequent services than at any time in the past. Meaningful improvements are only going to be had by considerable infrastructure and personnel expenditure, and even when that is proposed, witness all the criticism (HS2).

 

[The Ham]

I would like to think that a really adventurous bid would plan to increase the 9 car sets to 11 by breaking up a couple of the existing 9 car sets and having Alstom reconfigure to all 11 car sets. Of course to do this they need some new trains which could be in the form of bi-mode or just straight electric but they'd need to be tilt capable. How viable all that would be I don't know.

If I understand it correctly you can't just switch the sets around as there's something like an extra transformer/pantographs between the 9 & 11 coach set (in sure someone with better understanding will provide the exact details).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I understand it correctly you can't just switch the sets around as there's something like an extra transformer/pantographs between the 9 & 11 coach set (in sure someone with better understanding will provide the exact details).

There is. It just means you'd only be able to re-use 4 coaches out of a 9 or 6 out of an 11. Unless of course you do some conversion work - if you can turn a D78 into a DMU adding a transformer seems to be a smaller piece of work!

 

[cactustwirly]

An alternative way of looking at it is that people vote with their feet. Supply and demand. If the product didn't meet the requirements, wouldn't passenger numbers start to reduce? Just like they are doing at some shops which are closing. As much as many of us like to moan about lateness the fact remains, compared to the car or the coach to London or Glasgow or Manchester it's just far better to get the train, even if performance is in the late 80 percents on a certain week rather than 90 odd percent as a total example.

Could be expensive, as you're at the mercy of Alston, who are less than enthusiastic about building more Pendolinos

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Could be expensive, as you're at the mercy of Alston, who are less than enthusiastic about building more Pendolinos

More Pendolinos can't be built, if nothing else because they no longer meet modern standards.