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WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

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Energy

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Alstom ? No orders in UK lately.
They have been bidding, they proposed a train for Greater Anglia and that train was in First's bid for the franchise. The also tried to bid for crossrail but they didn't have a suitable product. They are currently working on the breeze hydrogen train as well as bidding for HS2.
They also do lots of maintenance, electrification and signalling, they definitely have a presence in the UK even if they haven't won any new trains in the past couple years...
 
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BillBlue80

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The trains ordered will be primarily used London to Liverpool (EMU) and London to Chester/Holyhead (Bi-mode). They are unlikely to operate London - Preston - Glasgow services (the bi-modes could be potentially used if a diversionary route requires Diesel operation)

A recent article in Rail magazine discussed the fact that the Pendolino may be the last of the tilting trains.

“You might not have noticed, but the first of TransPennine Express’s new Class 397 and Class 802 trains have been running up and down the West Coast Main Line (WCML) north of Preston at speeds of up to 125mph without any tilting capability at all.

Now that TPE has shown that tilt isn’t necessary for fast timings, not only will this reduce the cost of any new fleet, it will also reduce the conflicts between the tilting and non-tilting fast trains operating through the North West and into Scotland. This avoids increased headways and the reduced capacity that conflicting speeds would result in.


On the WCML, there’s another factor at play. Unlike the East Coast Main Line, with its long straight sections and the occasional curvy bit, the West Coast has a speed profile like a sawtooth, with or without tilt in operation. Even the Pendolino isn’t particularly quick at accelerating out of curves, and in a few cases drivers can’t make much use of the short stretches of higher permissible speeds.

This isn’t the case with the latest generation of electric multiple units. Both CAF’s Class 397 and Hitachi’s Class 802 (IET) trains have an immense rate of acceleration, and for a railway with lots of changes of speed, acceleration to make the most of the fast stretches is as important as the overall top speed.

TPE, CAF, Hitachi and Network Rail have undertaken extensive modelling to assess the requirements for non-tilting 125mph operation. The overhead traction equipment (not least the tension of the contact wire), signalling distances and vertical alignment (even a railway has to consider vertical accelerations to keep passengers comfortable and track materials intact) are 125mph-capable without any alteration.Only curving forces present an issue. And having identified several test sections, CAF in particular has been running its Class 397s at the proposed speeds and ensuring that comfort in the passenger saloons isn’t affected.

Testing of this aspect of the new trains’ operation has shown that 125mph without tilt is comfortably feasible, and that the better acceleration of the units allows them to make more use of the short straight sections between curves. If all goes to plan, then the WCML north of Preston should be signed off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year.It remains to be seen if this will be extended southwards. But given the reduction in costs that it would appear to represent, and the potential benefits to passenger and freight operations, it would be a surprise if tilting capability (or the track-mounted enabling equipment) was retained anywhere beyond the life of the Class 221s and ‘390s’.”


Many doubt that it will be possible to allow 125mph operation on all sections that tilt operation currently allows. However there is a feeling that there can over time be an increase in the number of sections of the WCML where conventional trains can operate at 125 mph. Currently the straight section between Wolverhampton and Stafford doesn’t require tilt for 125mph operations (however this section of line will be infrequently used by the new units). The better acceleration will help the new stock but certainly won’t make up for being limited to 110 mph operations on 125 mph EPS sections.

In reality these new trains will usually only find themselves on 125mph EPS railway along the 145 mile section of WCML from London to Crewe. They will primarily operate one train per hour to Liverpool (the other service will likely remain a Pendolino) and two trains per hour from London to Chester/Holyhead/Wrexham. They may also find themselves used on some London Euston - Birmingham services.

Although pathing is already tight on the Southern section of the WCML I’m sure that even if these units are restricted to 110 mph over much of the 125 mph EPS sections it will be possible to fit these 3 services per hour in.

These units are likely to be cascaded to other operators if HS2 is built, which is why a Class 801/802 design is attractive as there are numerous other TOCs that could easily integrate them in their fleet. If HS2 is built new rolling stock will be purchased to enable operations on both the High Speed lines and the existing WCML infrastructure.

I don’t think anyone has seriously looked at what to do if HS2 is shelved. Will they look to increase EPS from 125mph to 140mph on the existing WCML through in cab signalling? The Pendolino fleet is 140 mph capable so could have in cab equipment updated for new signalling. If they did this upcoming stop-gap replacement for Voyagers would then likely need replacing with tilt capable stock and would be cascaded elsewhere.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this thread is about the new WCML rolling stock. Thanks :)

For Pendolino refurbishment, use the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wcml-pendolino-refurbishment.192970/

For livery & branding discussion, use https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ml-livery-branding.189399/page-5#post-4189704

For WCML EPS speeds please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wcml-eps-speeds.186723/


For discussing whether or not non-tilting trains could run on the WCML at 125mph please use https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-tilting-trains-at-125mph-on-the-wcml.193846/

For ideas and suggestions regarding the new WCML trains please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wcml-new-trains-suggestions-ideas-and-predictions.193851/

For anything else, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) or use an existing one.

This forum has plenty of spare capacity for threads; there is no need to discuss multiple topics in on thread ;)

Please do post in the correct section/thread, making a new thread where appropriate, as it is much easier if people do these themselves than if we are asked to split posts into new threads.

If anyone wishes to post ideas or suggestions, please ensure these are posted in Speculative Ideas.

Thanks! :)
 
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Rhydgaled

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I quickly Googled avanti new trains but all the results seem to be about the brand/name. Did they also officially announce the supplier(s) for the new stock?

In reality these new trains will usually only find themselves on 125mph EPS railway along the 145 mile section of WCML from London to Crewe. They will primarily operate one train per hour to Liverpool (the other service will likely remain a Pendolino) and two trains per hour from London to Chester/Holyhead/Wrexham. They may also find themselves used on some London Euston - Birmingham services.

Although pathing is already tight on the Southern section of the WCML I’m sure that even if these units are restricted to 110 mph over much of the 125 mph EPS sections it will be possible to fit these 3 services per hour in.
2tph to Chester? Did I miss that in the franchise announcement?
 

Bletchleyite

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I quickly Googled avanti new trains but all the results seem to be about the brand/name. Did they also officially announce the supplier(s) for the new stock?

No, not yet, though I think most of us would bet on 5x26m 80x from Hitachi with a GWR style buffetless interior (though probably seats and the stripe over the reservation displays in that bluey-green colour). Though CAF is a possible outlier for the EMUs.

It's taken recent new TOCs a while to announce stock orders, so I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't know that for certain until early next year.
 

krus_aragon

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2tph to Chester? Did I miss that in the franchise announcement?
No. I replied to that post a while back (in a post that was relocated to another thread):
I think you'll find that's still going to be 1tph (with the possible exception of some rush-hour extras to serve Gobowen while still sending a double-unit to Holyhead).
There was no doubling of frequency mentioned at the awrd of the franchise (see the dft maps and blurbs here).
 

6Gman

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I quickly Googled avanti new trains but all the results seem to be about the brand/name. Did they also officially announce the supplier(s) for the new stock?

2tph to Chester? Did I miss that in the franchise announcement?

The clip you quote refers to Euston and Crewe being 145 miles apart. I suppose moving them 13 miles closer together will help reduce journey times ...

:D
 

krus_aragon

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The clip you quote refers to Euston and Crewe being 145 miles apart. I suppose moving them 13 miles closer together will help reduce journey times ...

:D
No need to move them, just straighten every single curve on the WCML, and you'll find it really is 145 miles (as the crow flies)

That is what HS2 is doing, isn't it? ;)
 

irish_rail

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Seen it quoted elsewhere it's defo Hitachi. Should have been announced today but delayed for some reason. Expect the announcement shortly though.
 
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More 80x trains... Hooray...

I hope they'll go with something else, just for the sake of variety to be honest. I can't get excited over new 80x orders because it's what everyone is doing.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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No need to move them, just straighten every single curve on the WCML, and you'll find it really is 145 miles (as the crow flies)
That is what HS2 is doing, isn't it? ;)

Actually I think HS2 will be a couple of miles further to Crewe than the current route.
Incidentally, the straight-line distance from London to Glasgow is something like 342 miles.
You wouldn't think there were 59 miles of indirection in the WCML.
The straight line passes east of Manchester, close to Todmorden.
 

Mordac

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More 80x trains... Hooray...

I hope they'll go with something else, just for the sake of variety to be honest. I can't get excited over new 80x orders because it's what everyone is doing.
Safest option though, as they've seemed to have overcome any teething issues on the GWR.
 
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Safest option though, as they've seemed to have overcome any teething issues on the GWR.

Safe is boring. A brand new train would stand out more. We have still yet to see a proper competitor to the 80x family. The only train that comes close is the 397, and that isn't in service yet and is only electric.
 

GrimShady

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Yahoo more 800s!

Just what we need, another round of sore bottoms!
 

ashkeba

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Safe is boring. A brand new train would stand out more. We have still yet to see a proper competitor to the 80x family. The only train that comes close is the 397, and that isn't in service yet and is only electric.
What about the Flirts? 125mph capable like the Civity, although the 745s are listed as 100mph (the GEML's line speed), but has bi-modes already in UK service with tri-modes ordered. And if you want to go faster than 125mph, Stadler also have the Smile, but there's no UK version yet so it would be a riskier order.
 

Jozhua

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Safe is boring. A brand new train would stand out more. We have still yet to see a proper competitor to the 80x family. The only train that comes close is the 397, and that isn't in service yet and is only electric.

Let's pray they fit better seats to the new ones :lol:
 

GrimShady

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I don't see any quality difference whatsoever between the Mk3 interior and the 80x interior other than the seating. And much as I dislike Fainsa Sophias, I'd take a 6 hour journey in one of those over a 2 hour journey in an InterCity 70.

What about the lighting, ride and noise?
 

Bletchleyite

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What about the lighting, ride and noise?

Lighting: better on the 80x. On the original Mk3 it was direct, badly diffused and way too bright (as a naughty teenager I used to go round switching them to dim :) ). The least said about the GWR dentist's chair blue tubes the better - the worst lighting on the whole network.

Ride: better on the 80x. Firmer, but the Mk3 has a side to side sway and rides quite noisily. It was better than the Mk2, but it doesn't come up to modern standards and feels quite rough at 125.

Noise: again better on the 80x, you can hardly hear anything, even in diesel mode, other than a not unpleasant traction motor sound on starting out.

And then there is the worst 2+2 Standard seat that has ever disgraced the railway, the IC70.

The Mk3b First Class coach addressed some of these, but really they only genuinly good Mk3 (what all of them should be) is the Wessie.

So let's not have any of those back :)
 
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What about the Flirts? 125mph capable like the Civity, although the 745s are listed as 100mph (the GEML's line speed), but has bi-modes already in UK service with tri-modes ordered. And if you want to go faster than 125mph, Stadler also have the Smile, but there's no UK version yet so it would be a riskier order.

You're right, I'd forgotten about those. Are the 745s capable of 125mph and limited to 100? Or are the 745s only capable of 100 but a 125mph capable version could be made?
 

GrimShady

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Lighting: better on the 80x. On the original Mk3 it was direct, badly diffused and way too bright (as a naughty teenager I used to go round switching them to dim :) ). The least said about the GWR dentist's chair blue tubes the better - the worst lighting on the whole network.

Ride: better on the 80x. Firmer, but the Mk3 has a side to side sway and rides quite noisily. It was better than the Mk2, but it doesn't come up to modern standards and feels quite rough at 125.

Noise: again better on the 80x, you can hardly hear anything, even in diesel mode, other than a not unpleasant traction motor sound on starting out.

And then there is the worst 2+2 Standard seat that has ever disgraced the railway, the IC70.

The Mk3b First Class coach addressed some of these, but really they only genuinly good Mk3 (what all of them should be) is the Wessie.

So let's not have any of those back :)

Lighting: It's notoriously harsh which is why LNER are toning it down. Lots of decent examples of good lighting out there.

Ride: Compare the 800 to the ride on a new MK3. It's not fair comparison with a vehicle that's done 40 yeas of mileage.

Noise: My last journey the noise was ridiculous. It's exactly the same traction motor noise as a 385.

What's a Wessie?
 

F Great Eastern

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More 80x trains... Hooray...

I hope they'll go with something else, just for the sake of variety to be honest. I can't get excited over new 80x orders because it's what everyone is doing.

The 800 series are indeed boring, if you see what the likes of Italy, Austria and Germany for instance have to offer, the 800 series is rather more basic and less special.
 

GrimShady

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The 800 series are indeed boring, if you see what the likes of Italy, Austria and Germany for instance have to offer, the 800 series is rather more basic and less special.

Agreed. There's nothing particularly special or good about them. Just another generation of sub standard trains.
 
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Agreed. There's nothing particularly special or good about them. Just another generation of sub standard trains.

I wouldn't say sub standard. My only real issues with them are the seats and the harshness of the lighting. My main problem is that too many people are ordering them, and it'll get boring seeing them everywhere.
 
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