WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[kieron]

A factor, yes. But he still knew what he was doing and I understand the report confirms that he worked for a 'regular' freight firm at the same time (can't remember which one) so he would definitely have been aware of what he should and shouldn't be doing from that company, even with WCRC slack approach to safety.

I don't think the RAIB speculate on why the staff on board chose to respond in the way they did. It does say that this was the third time that day on which AWS had been overridden in the same manner. This suggests to me that any factors related to the individual members of staff involved may not have been significant.

WCRC fined £200,000, plus costs of £64,000.
Cox sentenced to 4 months imprisonment, suspended for 18 months.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/06/27/wcr-fined-200k-for-safety-failings

As well as 80 hours' unpaid work (as per ITN), and a fine ("victim surcharge") of £60.

 

[Phil H]

Where is Tangmere now? Was he/she in quarantine as crime evidence?
Is the AWS being modified or is the locomotive jinxed and not going to return to service again?
I suspect if running again it would be under great scrutiny.

 

[PHILIPE]

Where is Tangmere now? Was he/she in quarantine as crime evidence?
Is the AWS being modified or is the locomotive jinxed and not going to return to service again?
I suspect if running again it would be under great scrutiny.

Still out and about on Charters.

 

[DarloRich]

Where is Tangmere now? Was he/she in quarantine as crime evidence?
Is the AWS being modified or is the locomotive jinxed and not going to return to service again?
I suspect if running again it would be under great scrutiny.

It it is proving difficult to crack in the interview room. They never talk these Bullied light pacifics. It like the Cosa Nostra with them.

It is out and about on charter use.

 

[edwin_m]

It it is proving difficult to crack in the interview room. They never talk these Bullied light pacifics. It like the Cosa Nostra with them.

If they show it what happened to its cousin in the NRM, it will sing like a canary.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It it is proving difficult to crack in the interview room. They never talk these Bullied light pacifics. It like the Cosa Nostra with them.

It is out and about on charter use.

If they show it what happened to its cousin in the NRM, it will sing like a canary.

Its agreed to talk after I showed it a picture of Henry bricked up in a tunnel

 

[snowball]

Its agreed to talk after I showed it a picture of Henry bricked up in a tunnel

It's nearer 60 years than 50 since I looked at those books, and I've never watched the TV version, but wasn't it James?

 

[W230]

Unlike what we operate day to day, the footplate of a steam loco working hard is an assault on your senses. A wall of heat (esp on a Bulleid), and high noise levels. The need to manage another person, and the boiler, in addition to driving. Driving with a restricted view of the road ahead, and being dependent on a the fireman to sight signals, which are obscured by the boiler. It's a different concept to driving modern traction, and unlike anything that you will have encountered in your everyday life either.

I fully agree. Which makes me wonder whether steam really has any place on the mainline anymore? I know there are extra restrictions place on steam running on Network Rail routes but with such an increased risk it seems foolhardy.

Not excusing what he did, but I think the suspended sentence is correct. If it had been simple negligence, then he should have gone to prison.

Again I fully agree. I feel the sentence is appropriate.

I'm more concerned by the Hexthorpe incident in some ways. A fireman taking it upon himself to isolate the TPWS and operate the loco, without explicitely being instructed to do so. Not in a high pressure situation. His feet wouldn't have touched on a preserved railway.

I'm more concerned with the general attitude of some of the drivers of preserved trains on mainlines. Considering their limited use, it does seem that they are involved in a disproportionate number of incidents. And serious ones like Stafford etc...

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It's nearer 60 years than 50 since I looked at those books, and I've never watched the TV version, but wasn't it James?

No - Henry went into a tunnel and refused to come out because the rain would spoil his green paint. So they took up the tracks, bricked him in and left him to sit there and be a naughty little engine

 

[miami]

No - Henry went into a tunnel and refused to come out because the rain would spoil his green paint. So they took up the tracks, bricked him in and left him to sit there and be a naughty little engine

It was a pretty brutal episode for pre-schoolers. Gets bricked up, life goes on, and then that's it, end of the episode!

 

[D1009]

I remember reading the book at least sixty years ago:

"Once, an engine attached to a train
was afraid of a few drops of rain.
It went into a tunnel and squeaked through its funnel
and never came out again."

It was definitely Henry.

 

[najaB]

It was a pretty brutal episode for pre-schoolers. Gets bricked up, life goes on, and then that's it, end of the episode!

Hmm... I wonder if that was a subtle reference to the SSR?

 

[30907]

It was a pretty brutal episode for pre-schoolers. Gets bricked up, life goes on, and then that's it, end of the episode!

Except that in the original, once Henry was suitably sorry, he was forgiven and restored to service. So not completely off topic.

 

[2HAP]

Stuff Thomas, bring back Sammy the Shunter!

 

[furnessvale]

Except that in the original, once Henry was suitably sorry, he was forgiven and restored to service. So not completely off topic.

Unless I have missed something, that is where reality and fiction diverge.

I only seem to have read about WCR getting back on track after difficulties rather than any noises of contrition.

 

[CosherB]

I only seem to have read about WCR getting back on track after difficulties rather than any noises of contrition.

I don't believe that "contrition" is in the WCRC vocabularly.

 

[BestWestern]

I fully agree. Which makes me wonder whether steam really has any place on the mainline anymore? I know there are extra restrictions place on steam running on Network Rail routes but with such an increased risk it seems foolhardy.


Again I fully agree. I feel the sentence is appropriate.


I'm more concerned with the general attitude of some of the drivers of preserved trains on mainlines. Considering their limited use, it does seem that they are involved in a disproportionate number of incidents. And serious ones like Stafford etc...

The Stafford SPAD (I gather that's the incident you mean?) didn't involve a 'preserved' train as such, or a specifically heritage operator. Whilst the loco was elderly (Class 47), DCR are merely a small operator with a small fleet of rather aged locomotives. The incident also involved somebody who was rather more than a Driver; he was a senior figure within the the company, with an unfortunate combination of vested interests and a very poor attitude.

What is perhaps required is a more stringent application of the overall safety standards by the ORR/RSSB, and sanctions which actually act as a deterrent to those who may feel the rules are optional.

The biggest current threat to 'preserved' trains, or those that go chuff chuff chuff, anyhow, are the lineside safety issues we've seen with Flying Scotsman.

 

[ilkestonian]

I don't believe that "contrition" is in the WCRC vocabularly.

To be fair, they don't appear to have a vocabulary of any sort; they are not renowned for ever saying anything

 

[snowball]

To be fair, they don't appear to have a vocabulary of any sort; they are not renowned for ever saying anything

According to Rail magazine a couple of issues ago, they were saying they disputed elements of the RAIB report, and were claiming they were in discussions with RAIB about it, but RAIB denied having heard from them since the report was published.

 

[krus_aragon]

They never talk these Bullied light pacifics. It like the Cosa Nostra with them.

If they show it what happened to its cousin in the NRM, it will sing like a canary.

You, Sir, win the post of the month award! Now help me get all this tea off my computer screen.

 

[Lankyline]

A point I raised way back when during the time when WCRC were banned was this, is the company brand going to be deemed"toxic" by industry/customers ? Or in need of a rebrand following the outcome of the ban/court case.
Now that everything has been settled do members think WCRC's brand has been damaged, or it's simply a case of they believe no damage hs been done

 

[BestWestern]

A point I raised way back when during the time when WCRC were banned was this, is the company brand going to be deemed"toxic" by industry/customers ? Or in need of a rebrand following the outcome of the ban/court case.
Now that everything has been settled do members think WCRC's brand has been damaged, or it's simply a case of they believe no damage hs been done

The brand is tarnished, but probably only with those who have any railway knowledge or interest. For the wider public, I very much doubt most would know or particularly care. The regular presence in the media of Virgin Trains West Coast, and to a lesser degree the West Coast Mainline, doubtless help to muddy the waters. In addition, WCRC have a near monopoly on their corner of the market, so there is little need for them to act to defend - or hide - their reputation.

 

[Lankyline]

The brand is tarnished, but probably only with those who have any railway knowledge or interest. For the wider public, I very much doubt most would know or particularly care. The regular presence in the media of Virgin Trains West Coast, and to a lesser degree the West Coast Mainline, doubtless help to muddy the waters. In addition, WCRC have a near monopoly on their corner of the market, so there is little need for them to act to defend - or hide - their reputation.

TBH i think that this is the case, now that the court case is over, the company is "Yesterday's" news and basically out of the spotlight Those in the industry may well hold different views regarding WCRC's reputation / credibility, but unless anyone on here has access to a direct view from inside the industry (and not I heard it from a mate of mine etc) they will just continue on, but they are Imo just one incident away from a complete ban

 

[edwin_m]

Many trains operated by WCRC are marketed by other companies, so the casual punter won't necessarily know who is running the train until they see the name on the side.

 

[Harbornite]

Many trains operated by WCRC are marketed by other companies, so the casual punter won't necessarily know who is running the train until they see the name on the side.

Indeed. Perhaps WCR should consider cutting back on their branding. It wouldn't be difficult, simply replace all west coast branding on their coaches with British railways roundels, and repaint their locos into historic liveries.

 

[Sacro]

TBH i think that this is the case, now that the court case is over, the company is "Yesterday's" news and basically out of the spotlight Those in the industry may well hold different views regarding WCRC's reputation / credibility, but unless anyone on here has access to a direct view from inside the industry (and not I heard it from a mate of mine etc) they will just continue on, but they are Imo just one incident away from a complete ban

There have been incidents, not mentioned on here however. Don't know if word got through to the ORR.

 

[RPTC]

With the seriousness of the problems and the legal responsibilities that rests on any company who sub-contracts to WCRC, the real damage is that their corporate customers should be looking elsewhere, as Belmond have done. A luxury brand like Belmond needs a well run, properly managed supplier that matches its brand values. If something happened (whether reliability issues or safety incidents) on one of its tours the real reputational damage would be to Belmond rather than WCRC. Hence they've gone to GBRf. And GBRf have spotted an opportunity in the market for a competent and reliable charter operator, and made a clear signal to the market with two 66's being repainted that this is not just a temporary measure.

Any company who uses WCRC will have had to establish itself that WCRC are safe and competent to be used, they can't avoid that legal responsibility. I would not be surprised if there are lots of discussions going on beghind the scenes about alternative options. Clearly there are issues around availability of coaching stock etc but when big outfits with deep pockets like GBRf get invovled we may see some changes. Hopefully the market will do the job the regulators have failed to do.

 

[Lankyline]

Two recent articles in Rail magazine and Steam railway on WCRC both claim to be direct and in depth, having read both there is hardly any difference between the two and hardly what I would call in depth, the answers they got were at best, Imo, bordering on the vague.
But a couple of points stood out for me, WCRC's md is quoted as saying we tried to work with the ORR, sorry but tried to work with ! I would have thought full cooperation would have been the order of the day! Also they were upset at losing Belmond's contract to GBRf after 10 years, sorry but that smacks of commercial naivety, when you have just had a number of serious problems that impact on your companies performance and reputation, your then upset about losing a major contract, I would say they didn't do enough to account manage their customer.
I took from it all a certain arrogance that Belmond couldn't go as they were WCRC and we've had the contract for 10 years.
One other point that came out was they were upset at comments etc made about the company from inside the industry during ORR's investigations,
Finally there was nothing close to being in any way apologetic or giving clear assurances that they were doing everything to make their service, safer and better than before, I think they have missed a major pr opportunity to help their credibility and reputation with these articles

 

[Sacro]

... doing everything to make their service, safer and better than before...

From what I'm hearing, they aren't doing anything of the sort. I imagine it's only a matter of time before they get banned again.

 

[cjmillsnun]

From what I'm hearing, they aren't doing anything of the sort. I imagine it's only a matter of time before they get banned again.

I think that was what he was trying to say. I'll quote him again.

Finally there was nothing close to being in any way apologetic or giving clear assurances that they were doing everything to make their service, safer and better than before

My boldface