We should abolish peak restrictions

[Mgameing123]

Not having peak fares only makes the off peak fares seem expensive, because there is no benefit for travelling later.

Maybe because the current fares are a big scam? And here is where I introduce you to what an advance ticket is.

 

[smsm1]

If an advance ticket is close to the price of the walk up fare I'll often choose the walk up fare instead as it then means there's no issues should there be delays getting to the station or if we arrive early and want to get the earlier train.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I actually back the principle of having more expensive fares at peak times to discourage over use, though it's perhaps a little far-ranging at the moment - a lot of "peak" trains actually have hardly anyone on, so there's no real need for them to put the fare up.

I'm not sure how you could deal with this without potentially making the system even more complicated, though!

 

[PeterC]

When I first started using trains off peak returns were a discounted fare. Everything else was just the standard price. When did off peak become the standard and peak a "premium"?

 

[newguy]

I actually back the principle of having more expensive fares at peak times to discourage over use, though it's perhaps a little far-ranging at the moment - a lot of "peak" trains actually have hardly anyone on, so there's no real need for them to put the fare up.

I'm not sure how you could deal with this without potentially making the system even more complicated, though!

I commute 5 days a week on a Scotrail train. I normally get a monthly season ticket. On my route the off peak pilot made my daily commute substantially busier, even before the temporary timetable was introduced. I had to stand a lot more and it got worse during the temp timetable.

I’ve come to the conclusion that peak fares are actually a good thing. To properly introduce an off peak based fare scheme, you would have to have enough capacity in the mornings and evenings to be able to cope with the extra demand. This is probably unaffordable. The only way to control demand is through peak fares

when this scheme was introduced I was all for it but the pilot has convinced me it’s a terrible idea.

 

[A S Leib]

There are no Advance fares for this journey, nor should there be really because it is a 'turn up and go' service with a fast train every 15 minutes, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers an hour.

There are LNER advance fares for Stevenage – King's Cross. I've used them once or twice to go between western Hertfordshire and Yorkshire / the North East when I wasn't sure when booking if I could be driven to Stevenage or not, but that's a fringe enough circumstance that I'd agree that they probably shouldn't exist.

As a compromise, would it be feasible to say that trains due to arrive in central London, Manchester, Leeds etc. before ~09:00 M-F (M-Th?) need to be anytime or advance tickets, but then everything else is off-peak?

 

[Hadders]

As a compromise, would it be feasible to say that trains due to arrive in central London, Manchester, Leeds etc. before ~09:00 M-F (M-Th?) need to be anytime or advance tickets, but then everything else is off-peak?

Take Stevenage to London. The situation you describe is not a million miles away from what happens. Replace 09:00 with 10:00 and have restrictions that apply Monday to Friday and that's basically what exists already. Before anyone points it out these aren't the exact restrictions but it's close enough for the purposes of this discussion.

Now, what happens if I'm making a longer journey. Say Stevenage to Bristol. What peak restrictions should apply?

 

[smsm1]

When I first started using trains off peak returns were a discounted fare. Everything else was just the standard price. When did off peak become the standard and peak a "premium"?

I suspect some of the issue is the decade or two of above inflation price rises for train and other public transport fares, whilst travelling by car hasn't got as expensive in relative terms. The main competitor to the train is driving and so if we are to discourage driving we need to ensure public transport is cheaper.

 

[A S Leib]

Now, what happens if I'm making a longer journey. Say Stevenage to Bristol. What peak restrictions should apply?

From the passenger's point of view, paying for a more expensive fare should mean they should be allowed to use 'peak' trains. A counterargument would be that said longer journeys are likely cheaper per mile and that that should be benefit enough. That doesn't solve the issue of people buying e.g. Stevenage to Ealing Broadway tickets, unless tickets had to be valid to Didcot or Newbury or beyond to be usable in the peak, which just makes it more complicated again.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Would this be more easily accepted by the railway industry if it were introduced along with the removal of railcards (except perhaps disabled, senior and 16-17)? There would be less revenue loss, and would certainly help simplify fares. It would also be an easier way of justifying removing railcards to the passenger and media, if all tickets were instead sold at current off peak rates.

 

[yorksrob]

Would this be more easily accepted by the railway industry if it were introduced along with the removal of railcards (except perhaps disabled, senior and 16-17)? There would be less revenue loss, and would certainly help simplify fares. It would also be an easier way of justifying removing railcards to the passenger and media, if all tickets were instead sold at current off peak rates.

Wouldn't removing railcards hit revenue from leisure travel ?

 

[A S Leib]

except perhaps disabled, senior and 16-17

Why should a 62-year-old in full-time employment nearing the end of their career get discounts not available to 18-year-olds in full-time education, facing a lower minimum wage, lower hours when they can work, and more expensive car insurance if they have a car / driving licence at all? 55% of over-70s can drive; only 44% of 17-24-year-olds can.

 

[JonathanH]

Why should a 62-year-old in full-time employment nearing the end of their career get discounts not available to 18-year-olds in full-time education, facing a lower minimum wage, lower hours when they can work, and more expensive car insurance if they have a car / driving licence at all? 55% of over-70s can drive; only 44% of 17-24-year-olds can.

Indeed, why isn't the railway aligning the Senior Railcard with State Pension Age, and the 16-17 Saver with school terms.

Any idea that waters down savings for the groups targeted by railcards to make peak fares less expensive is going to be a hard thing to justify.

 

[Mgameing123]

Indeed, why isn't the railway aligning the Senior Railcard with State Pension Age, and the 16-17 Saver with school terms.

Any idea that waters down savings for the groups targeted by railcards to make peak fares less expensive is going to be a hard thing to justify.

Just abolish all railcards in general. Instead reduce ticket prices to 1/3 of the normal fare.

 

[A S Leib]

Indeed, why isn't the railway aligning the Senior Railcard with State Pension Age, and the 16-17 Saver with school terms.

This is probably a topic for another thread, but another annoying thing is not being able to use Family & Friends railcards when the youngest person's 17. I know there's Two Together railcards and I think the only difference between them is some afternoon peak fares, but for two young people and two parents, that's £60-£120 on railcards depending on who's travelling (£60 if all four travel together, £120 if over the course of the year both children travel with both parents separately), and that's without the issue of three people travelling. Of course, it's not difficult to get a railcard's worth back, but making F&Fs available until at least the age of 18 would make it more attractive.

Edit: new post

 

[RailWonderer]

Now, what happens if I'm making a longer journey. Say Stevenage to Bristol. What peak restrictions should apply?

I've always thought the Paddington - Bristol leg, as that is the main leg of your journey, will carry the restrictions, not the Stevenage - KX leg. So with an off peak should let you use a peak train into KX as long as you take the first off peak off Paddington.

 

[A S Leib]

I've always thought the Paddington - Bristol leg, as that is the main leg of your journey, will carry the restrictions, not the Stevenage - KX leg. So with an off peak should let you use a peak train into KX as long as you take the first off peak off Paddington.

But what happens with e.g. a Newark – Bristol ticket where the intercity legs are roughly equal? No peak restrictions, as the journey's long enough that a late start would be too restrictive?

 

[Hadders]

From the passenger's point of view, paying for a more expensive fare should mean they should be allowed to use 'peak' trains. A counterargument would be that said longer journeys are likely cheaper per mile and that that should be benefit enough. That doesn't solve the issue of people buying e.g. Stevenage to Ealing Broadway tickets, unless tickets had to be valid to Didcot or Newbury or beyond to be usable in the peak, which just makes it more complicated again.

I think this demonstrates that however simple you try and make it, there will always be complications on a network the size of ours.

Would this be more easily accepted by the railway industry if it were introduced along with the removal of railcards (except perhaps disabled, senior and 16-17)? There would be less revenue loss, and would certainly help simplify fares. It would also be an easier way of justifying removing railcards to the passenger and media, if all tickets were instead sold at current off peak rates.

So you're proposing a 50% increase in off-peak fares for railcard holders.

Why should a 62-year-old in full-time employment nearing the end of their career get discounts not available to 18-year-olds in full-time education, facing a lower minimum wage, lower hours when they can work, and more expensive car insurance if they have a car / driving licence at all? 55% of over-70s can drive; only 44% of 17-24-year-olds can.

Your 62-year old travelling to work in the morning peak in South-East doesn't get a discount with a Semior Railcard.

Just abolish all railcards in general. Instead reduce ticket prices to 1/3 of the normal fare.

I'd love that to happen but who is going to make up the revenue shortfall.

I've always thought the Paddington - Bristol leg, as that is the main leg of your journey, will carry the restrictions, not the Stevenage - KX leg. So with an off peak should let you use a peak train into KX as long as you take the first off peak off Paddington.

That's what happens now but many people think it is 'too complicated' to understand. For the avoidabce of doubt I don't think it's complicated but it does mean I can travel from Stevenage to London in the morning peak with an Off Peak ticket.

 

[RailWonderer]

But what happens with e.g. a Newark – Bristol ticket where the intercity legs are roughly equal? No peak restrictions, as the journey's long enough that a late start would be too restrictive?

I would think Paddington - Bristol still because as you say a late start would be too restrictive, basically requiring an anytime.

In a new simplified fare system, individual trains would have pricing where some are slightly more than others, so some off peaks cost a bit more, some peaks cost a bit less to travel on, ending a system where a bulk of trains which are peak priced, off peak and super off peak priced.

At a machine or ticket office, a 'bundle' would be offered, so if you typed in Newark - Bristol (*note to mods, getting speculative now*) it would ask you to select the train into KX you wish to use, then suggest the connecting train at Paddington you would travel on, which you can change, at slightly increased or reduced cost. In different parts of Europe it works this way, but without you selecting a different connecting train.

 

[A S Leib]

Your 62-year old travelling to work in the morning peak in South-East doesn't get a discount with a Semior Railcard

My point was that they're likely to have more discretionary income than somebody still at school, and doesn't deserve discounts on leisure travel more than the younger group.

 

[Hadders]

In a new simplified fare system, individual trains would have pricing where some are slightly more than others, so some off peaks cost a bit more, some peaks cost a bit less to travel on, ending a system where a bulk of trains which are peak priced, off peak and super off peak priced.

That sounds complicated.

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross with the following timings:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

Under your plan, hat are the fares from Peterborough to London on these trains?

 

[RailWonderer]

That sounds complicated.

Consider a train from Edinburgh to Kings Cross with the following timings:

Edinburgh d. 08:00
Newcastle d. 09:30
Darlington d. 10:00
York d. 10:30
Doncaster d. 10:56
Peterborough d. 11:50
Kings Cross a. 12:38

Now consider a train from Leeds to Kings Cross:

Leeds d. 09:56
Wakefield Westgate d. 09:59
Doncaster d. 10:19
Peterborough d. 11:11
Kings Cross a. 11:59

Under your plan, hat are the fares from Peterborough to London on these trains?

They could be priced the same or the second one slightly less if this train is less busy, but it's up to whoever sets the pricing (DfT, the TOC on their behalf) to decide prices of specific services dependant on historic demand and how many tickets are sold for these services rather than brand them as peak, off peak or super off peak services, that way there is no ambiguity over restrictions of a ticket type. Then if you are on the wrong train you pay the difference (if there is any) to travel on the other service.

No dynamic pricing though, so it wouldn't be allowed to fluctuate week after week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could be priced the same or the second one slightly less if this train is less busy, but it's up to whoever sets the pricing (DfT, the TOC on their behalf) to decide prices of specific services dependant on demand and how many tickets are sold for these services rather than brand them as peak, off peak or super off peak services, that way there is no ambiguity over restrictions of a ticket type. Then if you are on the wrong train you pay the difference (if there is any) to travel on the other service.

You're basically describing the LNER fare increase trial there.

 

[RailWonderer]

You're basically describing the LNER fare increase trial there.

Which I don't think is bad as long as it isn't used as a guise to hike fares significantly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which I don't think is bad as long as it isn't used as a guise to hike fares significantly.

Despite that it removes flexibility that is offered by the car?

 

[A S Leib]

Which I don't think is bad as long as it isn't used as a guise to hike fares significantly.

So it is bad, given the relative walk-up fares from Newcastle to King's Cross vs Carlisle to Euston.

 

[RailWonderer]

Despite that it removes flexibility that is offered by the car?

It wouldn't remove flexbility if you could pay the difference, or be refunded the difference if you used a different service and were checked by a guard on board. On LNER it doesn't work this way. The car is more appealing anyway to couples and families because the petrol costs less than the tickets, the car just takes longer and the train is arguably more relalxing but the costlier option in any case.

 

[A S Leib]

The car is more appealing anyway to couples and families because the petrol costs less than the tickets

If I'm paying £70+ for a ticket from Newcastle to London, I'd definitely appreciate the ability to visit York, Sheffield etc. on the way down, whether I'm travelling alone or not.

 

[Hadders]

It sounds very complicated. If I turn up at Peterborough wanting to travel to London it sounds as though there’s going to be a myriad of different fares, depending on how busy the train might’ve been when it left Edinburgh or Leeds.

My example merely illustrates the point. In reality it would be much more complicated as there’s several trains an hour.

 

[RailWonderer]

It sounds very complicated. If I turn up at Peterborough wanting to travel to London it sounds as though there’s going to be a myriad of different fares, depending on how busy the train might’ve been when it left Edinburgh or Leeds.

That's what the peak, off peak, super off peak system has going for it, allowing breaks of journey which set train pricing isn't designed for. It's then a question of if you get refunded or have to pay more now that you're on a different service having broken your journey en-route.

The problem with the current system is that you have overpriced near empty peak services and rammed off peaks where there should be a middle price tier and reduced peak pricing to encourage more people to use these services and spread demand which is what set pricing can do.