Welsh Bi-Lingual Signs

[PaulHarding150]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #61 originally in this thread.

I notice that the refurbished Bridgend station opened yesterday and is decked out in ATW colours.

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWAL/status/996343594469543936

I know they paid for part of the refurbishment, but surly this is an oversight on someone's part?

Can I add, due to the fact that this post has been plucked out of another thread by the moderators, that the post above referring to Bridgend Station was posted by me querying the branding at Bridgend Station in ATW colours when they are due to loose the franchise in five months time.

I have no objection to bi-lingual signs at railway stations in Wales. (21/05/18)

 

[PHILIPE]

I notice that the refurbished Bridgend station opened yesterday and is decked out in ATW colours.

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWAL/status/996343594469543936

I know they paid for part of the refurbishment, but surly this is an oversight on someone's part?

I thought everything now was to be branded under the "Transport for Wales" banner

 

[ATW158Xpress]

My local station has removed the ATW sign underneath and just has the bilingual station name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I notice that the refurbished Bridgend station opened yesterday and is decked out in ATW colours.

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailWAL/status/996343594469543936

I know they paid for part of the refurbishment, but surly this is an oversight on someone's part?

Green for the non-English wording on signage is (and has been right back to BR days) the UK standard. (I'll give you that it's a slightly Arriva-esque turquoisy green, but I doubt significant numbers of people will notice that ).

Example:

Southall sign with translation in one of the Indian languages, I forget which

 

[gareth950]

Well the new bilingual signs (in Metro colours) that have gone up at Radyr and Llandaff have the Welsh names in black at the top of the sign, with the English in a barely readable light grey underneath.

It wouldn't surprise me if all the branding of the 'Metro' is in Welsh as the main language

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well the new bilingual signs (in Metro colours) that have gone up at Radyr and Llandaff have the Welsh names in black at the top of the sign, with the English in a barely readable light grey underneath.

It wouldn't surprise me if all the branding of the 'Metro' is in Welsh as the main language

Does this help address pasengers main concerns about getting a seat ?

 

[pemma]

Well the new bilingual signs (in Metro colours) that have gone up at Radyr and Llandaff have the Welsh names in black at the top of the sign, with the English in a barely readable light grey underneath.

It wouldn't surprise me if all the branding of the 'Metro' is in Welsh as the main language

Are Radyr and Llandaff villages where mainly Welsh is spoken? If not surely English in a 'barely readable grey' is against PRM requirements.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Are Radyr and Llandaff villages where mainly Welsh is spoken? If not surely English in a 'barely readable grey' is against PRM requirements.

Suburbs of Cardiff..........nowhere on the Metro is a Welsh language area........

 

[transmanche]

Well the new bilingual signs (in Metro colours) that have gone up at Radyr and Llandaff have the Welsh names in black at the top of the sign, with the English in a barely readable light grey underneath.

Looks very readable to me.

Source

 

[gareth950]

Looks very readable to me.

Source

It's definitely barely readable in person and is a very light grey. The ticket office signs are unreadable.

Unless of course it has been darkened since I was last there 3 / 4 weeks ago, but I suspect it's been darkened in those photos.

 

[Parallel]

Seconded. The light grey is definitely more difficult to read/see.

 

[Del1977]

It's definitely barely readable in person and is a very light grey. The ticket office signs are unreadable.

Unless of course it has been darkened since I was last there 3 / 4 weeks ago, but I suspect it's been darkened in those photos.

This is informed by the same mindset that has mandated that announcements for train departures and arrivals at Cardiff Central are made in Welsh first and then in English.

Plainly ridiculous given the very low proportion of Welsh speakers in South East Wales and indeed, for those arriving from the rest of the UK.

 

[gareth950]

This is informed by the same mindset that has mandated that announcements for train departures and arrivals at Cardiff Central are made in Welsh first and then in English.

Plainly ridiculous given the very low proportion of Welsh speakers in South East Wales and indeed, for those arriving from the rest of the UK.

It is, but the Welsh language brigade is very sensitive to any criticism, look at the fuss that was kicked up when the GWR 800s came into service without bilingual signage or bilingual automated announcements. Yes we are in Wales, yes Wales has it's own language, but the vast majority of people in SE Wales, esp. Cardiff, do not speak or understand Welsh.

Announcements in Welsh only came about at Queen St because the FM was travelling through there once about 3/4 years ago and noticed announcements were only in English. Before that, no one was bothered.

Bi-lingual automated announcements on Wales' new rolling stock will be fun for passengers. Passengers that currently enjoy train journeys in silence from announcements will be in for a shock.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Looks very readable to me.

Source

Looks very odd to me. The stripes would look better at the bottom of the sign in my opinion.

 

[Del1977]

It is, but the Welsh language brigade is very sensitive to any criticism, look at the fuss that was kicked up when the GWR 800s came into service without bilingual signage or bilingual automated announcements.

Bi-lingual automated announcements on Wales' new rolling stock will be fun for passengers. Passengers that currently enjoy train journeys in silence from announcements will be in for a shock.

What I find especially ridiculous is when there are places which have never been known by anything other than their English names, but the Welsh language brigade feel the need to invent new names for these places, which are basically Welsh translations of the English name, or even sillier, re-spell the English name with Welsh lettering...

 

[Dai Corner]

What I find especially ridiculous is when there are places which have never been known by anything other than their English names, but the Welsh language brigade feel the need to invent new names for these places, which are basically Welsh translations of the English name, or even sillier, re-spell the English name with Welsh lettering...

Especially when those places are in England

 

[6Gman]

What I find especially ridiculous is when there are places which have never been known by anything other than their English names, but the Welsh language brigade feel the need to invent new names for these places, which are basically Welsh translations of the English name, or even sillier, re-spell the English name with Welsh lettering...

Are there many of those?

(Serious question.)

 

[6Gman]

Especially when those places are in England

I'm honestly struggling to think of examples of that.

(Cryw/Crewe is - in my view - a bit silly, but it does have a genuine Welsh origin.)

 

[sw1ller]

I'm honestly struggling to think of examples of that.

(Cryw/Crewe is - in my view - a bit silly, but it does have a genuine Welsh origin.)

Caer - Chester. Never understood that one!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there many of those? (Serious question.)

Wrecsam for one.
Cryw, Fflint.

 

[6Gman]

Caer - Chester. Never understood that one!!

Well, Chester has been called Caer by the Welsh for many, many years. The oddity is that it's plain Caer, rather than Caerdyfrdwy or something.

Since I hear more Welsh spoken in Chester than in many places in Wales I think it deserves a Welsh name!

 

[6Gman]

Wrecsam for one.
Cryw, Fflint.

Wrexham is a good example.

Cryw is the original (Montgomeryshire) form, Anglicised to Crew(e), and then transferred to the railway town in Cheshire.

Flint was a 'plantation' town so used the English The Flint (the castle was built on a hard rock, the ME meaning of flint). Which the natives half-translated as Y Fflint. We should perhaps be grateful they didn't go for the full translation to Caergellestr.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Caer - Chester. Never understood that one!!

Caer is Fort or Castle, in fact The Fort, as Chester (Castra = Camp/Fort) was the principal garrison for North Wales.
There's also Caerleon, Caergwbi, Caergwrle, Caerfwrddyn and many others, all marking the location of forts/castles.
Actually Chester was also Caer Lleon (fort of the legions) which is also where Caerleon on Usk got its name.
The English name of Carlisle is another one with roots back to a similar Roman/Cumbrian origin.

 

[Envoy]

Are Radyr and Llandaff villages where mainly Welsh is spoken? If not surely English in a 'barely readable grey' is against PRM requirements.

It would appear that what they think is Welsh RADUR is in fact Old Saxon!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/radur
It would appear the the English spelling - which has been used for generations, has not been placed on the station building.

You are right, the English - when viewed from the side can become invisible - as my photo by the bridge at Radyr illustrates. It just goes to show that Transport for Wales don't give a damn about those who have vision problems. It is quite clear that this Labour run Welsh Government are waging a campaign of forcing the English speaking majority to learn Welsh or become second class citizens in their own country. Welsh is now first on all new road signs - even in areas where hardly anyone speaks Welsh. Goodness knows how they can consider Wales to be an attractive place for inward investment when the international language of the World is being downgraded/ kids forced to learn Welsh in school to the age of 16, etc.. It looks like the Welsh Language Society are running the Welsh Government.

Above are photos of Radyr Railway station. The English is written below the Welsh on the sign by the bridge - but viewed from the side, it has become invisible. (I have also included a bilingual sign from a Scottish station).

 

[gareth950]

View attachment 46771 View attachment 46772 View attachment 46773 View attachment 46774


It would appear that what they think is Welsh RADUR is in fact Old Saxon!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/radur
It would appear the the English spelling - which has been used for generations, has not been placed on the station building.

You are right, the English - when viewed from the side can become invisible - as my photo by the bridge at Radyr illustrates. It just goes to show that Transport for Wales don't give a damn about those who have vision problems. It is quite clear that this Labour run Welsh Government are waging a campaign of forcing the English speaking majority to learn Welsh or become second class citizens in their own country. Welsh is now first on all new road signs - even in areas where hardly anyone speaks Welsh. Goodness knows how they can consider Wales to be an attractive place for inward investment when the international language of the World is being downgraded/ kids forced to learn Welsh in school to the age of 16, etc.. It looks like the Welsh Language Society are running the Welsh Government.

Above are photos of Radyr Railway station. The English is written below the Welsh on the sign by the bridge - but viewed from the side, it has become invisible. (I have also included a bilingual sign from a Scottish station).

Someone should tweet ATW or TfW with those photos and ask why the English on the bridge signs is invisible. I'd love to see their response, and if ATW do actually pass the blame to TfW, as technically ATW are still responsible for Radyr station.
Those signs surely must be replaced. I'd have thought black for English and red/orange for Welsh would have been perfectly acceptable.

Residents of Cadoxton can obviously look forward to having the station re-named solely as Tregatwg very soon, with signs going up there that absolutely no one will be able to understand.

 

[transmanche]

Welsh is now first on all new road signs - even in areas where hardly anyone speaks Welsh. Goodness knows how they can consider Wales to be an attractive place for inward investment when the international language of the World is being downgraded

In the Republic of Ireland; every direction sign, every station sign and every (modern) road name sign has the Irish language name written first. I don't think this has caused the Irish economy to suffer.

But what you will see is that the Irish-language variant is written in a different font - which may be a better resolution of the issue.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

In the Republic of Ireland; every direction sign, every station sign and every (modern) road name sign has the Irish language name written first. I don't think this has caused the Irish economy to suffer.
You are absolutely right.
And a far smaller proportion of the population speak Irish rather than Welsh in Wales.

But what you will see is that the Irish-language variant is written in a different font - which may be a better resolution of the issue.

An excellent idea. However nothing less than the complete eradication of the language will satisfy the English only bigots. Sadly this is nothing new. Henry VIII,s declared intention was to "thoroughly exterpate the (Welsh) language from the land. He failed!

 

[gareth950]

An excellent idea. However nothing less than the complete eradication of the language will satisfy the English only bigots. Sadly this is nothing new. Henry VIII,s declared intention was to "thoroughly exterpate the (Welsh) language from the land. He failed!

Exactly the kind of over-reaction I was referring to up thread.
I've got no problems with the Welsh language, I enjoy hearing people speaking it when I'm out.
There's nothing at all wrong with bilingual signage. However putting up bilingual signs in a majority English speaking area, with the English almost invisible, is ridiculous.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Exactly the kind of over-reaction I was referring to up thread.
I've got no problems with the Welsh language, I enjoy hearing people speaking it when I'm out.
There's nothing at all wrong with bilingual signage. However putting up bilingual signs in a majority English speaking area, with the English almost invisible, is ridiculous.

Obviously the signs are badly designed which is why I cited the Irish method as being better. The Irish have bilingual signs everywhere but you are much more likely to hear Welsh spoken in Cardiff than Irish in Dublin. My wife and I were in Swanbridge, Barry, Aberthaw and Monknash, yesterday, to visit some old haunts and encountered some Welsh speakers in all four pubs/restaurants that we visited. I agree that the signs are badly designed but they can be changed.

 

[transmanche]

You are absolutely right. And a far smaller proportion of the population speak Irish rather than Welsh in Wales.

However putting up bilingual signs in a majority English speaking area, with the English almost invisible, is ridiculous.

The Irish have bilingual signs everywhere but you are much more likely to hear Welsh spoken in Cardiff than Irish in Dublin.

Of course, in Ireland, there are a number of state institutions which don't even have official names in the English language - only in Irish - despite the fact that only a tiny proportion of people actually speak the language. E.g. Garda (formally An Garda Síochána) the police force; An Bord Pleanála, the planning appeals board; or in a rail context Luas, the Dublin tram/light rail system, which is the Irish word for 'speed' and of course Córas Iompair Éireann the public transport holding company.

Taking Luas as inspiration, how about Cyflymder instead of 'South Wales Metro' anyone...?