Welsh Bi-Lingual Signs

[mmh]

It's a *massive* leap, because Cardiff is in Wales and Manchester is not.

So if I'm designing a two language information system, for the English display I need to show the English name for each place regardless of it being in Wales or England, but for the Welsh display I need to show the English name for anywhere in England?

I hear they all start speaking Welsh when an Englishman walks into a pub too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if I'm designing a two language information system, for the English display I need to show the English name for each place regardless of it being in Wales or England, but for the Welsh display I need to show the English name for anywhere in England?

I hear they all start speaking Welsh when an Englishman walks into a pub too.

I would have no objection at all to place names solely being the Welsh variant for places in Wales and the English variant for places in England, FWIW.

I suspect however a lot of *Welsh* people would object to that as they don't all speak Welsh!

 

[Spartacus]

Spending a fair bit of time driving in Wales, I find Welsh signage an issue on road directional signs, you have twice as many place names and only the same amount of time to make your decision about which lane you might need to be in or if you have to turn off. You could slow right down, but with a HGV up your boot you might end up spending almost more time looking in your rear view mirror than anything, so you’ll have even less time to read the signs. There’s also the slightly irritating habit of having both English and Welsh if the place names are all but identical. In Ireland, where I’ve also done some driving, they seem to have the perfect solution, with Irish placenames appearing in mixed case in a very oblique manner (though I believe it’s the same font), it’s easy for the brain to skip one half or the other, depending on what you’re used to, saving time and effort and no doubt increasing safety as less people will be doing last minute lane changes or turn offs as a result.

 

[matt_world2004]

As long as there is a clear distinction between the english language and the welsh language I do not see what the big deal is about the order.for ages welsh signs had the Welsh and English in exactly the same font as the English signs.So I thought araf was a place in wales rather than the welsh word for slow.

 

[cf111]

Someone should tweet ATW or TfW with those photos and ask why the English on the bridge signs is invisible. I'd love to see their response, and if ATW do actually pass the blame to TfW, as technically ATW are still responsible for Radyr station.
Those signs surely must be replaced. I'd have thought black for English and red/orange for Welsh would have been perfectly acceptable.

Residents of Cadoxton can obviously look forward to having the station re-named solely as Tregatwg very soon, with signs going up there that absolutely no one will be able to understand.

The Highland Council do the same with new road signs here, of course station signs have been in English and Gaelic in Scotland for many years now.

Attached image shows a road sign on the new Inverness West Link Road at a roundabout, directing to Cuil Doathail (Culduthel) and Duras (Dores)

 

[PaulHarding150]

As long as there is a clear distinction between the english language and the welsh language I do not see what the big deal is about the order.for ages welsh signs had the Welsh and English in exactly the same font as the English signs.

Exactly. The same goes for any bi-lingual production be it a sign place name (with one word in each language), or an A3 poster (with 1000 word of each).

The signs from ATW are fine, they are clear, easy for mono lingual speakers to which bit they should be reading and are on brand for the franchise.

The TfW signage in Radyr and Llandaf are less good, as the grey for the English is in many places too light.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Welsh-speaker here. I think Anglophones who complain about the prevalence of Welsh need to get over themselves-- yes, there aren't many Welsh speakers in Cardiff (though there are more than you think), but it is the capital of Wales.

But I wholly agree that having the English version in the same font or even less legible as in the example is troublesome. The Irish solution is perfect. (Though I doubt the English would like the next part of the Irish solution: in some Irish-speaking areas, signs are in Irish only, no English.)

The only time I've found the signs annoying is on the roads, where newer signs on complex roundabouts seem to make greater use of road numbers. Seeing a48(W) and a48(Gn) next to each other in the same typeface on a rather crowded roadsign on a signal-controlled roundabout can get a bit confusing, I admit.

I think complicating this is a social class issue. In South Wales, generally Welsh-speakers are more upper-middle class and even upper-class. 'English speaking town' can be a synonym for working class or rough town.

 

[krus_aragon]

Someone should tweet ATW or TfW with those photos and ask why the English on the bridge signs is invisible. I'd love to see their response, and if ATW do actually pass the blame to TfW, as technically ATW are still responsible for Radyr station.
Those signs surely must be replaced. I'd have thought black for English and red/orange for Welsh would have been perfectly acceptable.

I'd fear the red/orange fading in the sun and becoming illegible itself. If there were a black outline to the coloured text (current or your alternative) that'd deal with the issue of legibility, but there'd probably be all sorts of protests from the graphic design and styling camps.

 

[Lucan]

Are Radyr and Llandaff villages where mainly Welsh is spoken?

Llandaff is a city!

 

[cholsey-choose]

Llandaff is a city!

No, don't you know, Wales consists only of Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, and a string of tiny villages where only Welsh is spoken?

 

[pemma]

Llandaff is a city!

No it's not. Wales has 6 places with official city status - Bangor, Cardiff, Newport, St Davids, St Asaph and Swansea. The fact that Llandaff is administrated by City of Cardiff Council confirms it's not a city - an official city can't be in the administrative area of another city. It seems Llandaff is a place that pretends it's a city because it has a cathedral, having a cathedral doesn't make you a city hence why St Asaph has only been a city for a few years despite having a cathedral for hundreds of years.

 

[Lucan]

I think complicating this is a social class issue. In South Wales, generally Welsh-speakers are more upper-middle class and even upper-class. 'English speaking town' can be a synonym for working class or rough town.

I find that surprising. Perhaps that is the case in the Newport/Cardiff/Swansea areas, but hardly in the market towns nearer the English border. By no stretch could you call Monmouth, Chepstow, Hay, Usk and Abergavenny rough towns. In fact historically these are "English" towns (Norman to be strict) established in the old Marches, that grew up around Norman castles. They still feel English today.

In North Wales along the coast I noticed a rather different demographic - it seems over-populated with Liverpudlian OAPs! Many of the pubs I have been in have Liverpudlian landlords, obviously English speaking. I did a lot of work at Wylfa power station in Anglesey, and the management were 75% English and 25% Welsh; they obviously worked in the English Language and I doubt if more than 10% were very capable at Welsh. OTOH the blue collar workers generally spoke Welsh; although they would readily speak English, and I guessed that speaking Welsh was a form of cameraderie among them. It did however act as a sharp divide between workers and management which made me a bit uneasy.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Welsh-speaker here. I think Anglophones who complain about the prevalence of Welsh need to get over themselves-- yes, there aren't many Welsh speakers in Cardiff (though there are more than you think), but it is the capital of Wales.

There are practically none in Newport though, and in Monmouth you'll still encounter the odd person who asserts that his town is properly in England. (When the government confirmed in 1974 that Monmouthshire was very definitely in Wales, Monmouth Town Council went so far as to formally request a transfer to Herefordshire. It didn't get it, but the fringe English Democrats Party makes a point of always fielding a candidate at elections in Monmouth.)

But what I actually came here to ask was whether there are any "rules" about TOCs using Welsh-language forms for places in England. You'll hear Caer (Chester) and Amwythig (Shrewsbury) in Welsh-language announcements, but not others. If they are going to use Amwythig, which is far from obvious if you don't know it, why not Birmingham Heol Newydd, Lerpwl Heol Galch, Manceinion Picadulu. Caerwysg Dewi Sant might be a step too far!

Much as it's in England, the name Gobowen is Welsh - and if you went there and asked directions to Oswestry in Welsh, you actually would find someone who could give them. You may not have so much luck if you tried the same in Newport.

 

[Envoy]

Wikipedia has the statistics for knowledge of Welsh as of 2011 census:>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_areas_by_percentage_of_Welsh-speakers

Earlier reference was made to Welsh speakers being generally middle or even upper class. This may be true in Cardiff where recent immigrants from the western Welsh speaking areas have moved east to be teachers, etc. However, Cardiff is so big that it would be completely wrong to make the assumption that the English speaking population are working class. Most well paid professionals such as Doctors, Solicitors, Dentists, Train Drivers in the Cardiff area will not be Welsh speakers. You are unlikely to find Welsh speakers moving to Cardiff to be in low paid manual jobs.

Many students from England who have attended University in Cardiff, are reluctant to leave and therefore seek careers in the city. Much commuting appears to take place between Cardiff > Newport and Bristol. The area appears to be becoming one big economic zone.

 

[Del1977]

Wikipedia has the statistics for knowledge of Welsh as of 2011 census:>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_areas_by_percentage_of_Welsh-speakers

Earlier reference was made to Welsh speakers being generally middle or even upper class. This may be true in Cardiff where recent immigrants from the western Welsh speaking areas have moved east to be teachers, etc. However, Cardiff is so big that it would be completely wrong to make the assumption that the English speaking population are working class. Most well paid professionals such as Doctors, Solicitors, Dentists, Train Drivers in the Cardiff area will not be Welsh speakers. You are unlikely to find Welsh speakers moving to Cardiff to be in low paid manual jobs.

Many students from England who have attended University in Cardiff, are reluctant to leave and therefore seek careers in the city. Much commuting appears to take place between Cardiff > Newport and Bristol. The area appears to be becoming one big economic zone.

I always find those surveys about whether one can speak Welsh or not to be a little misleading, and almost designed to increase the reported numbers of Welsh speakers.

I can discuss what television programmes I like, what the weather is doing, or say where I live or even perhaps attempt to talk about a rugby match in Welsh. Though I wouldn't tick a box in a survey to say that I spoke Welsh. I wonder how many people say that they have "knowledge of Welsh" based on just a few phrases from school...

I suppose the test would be to enter into X numbers of shops or pubs in Cardiff/Newport/Caerphilly/wherever and ask for something in Welsh, and see how many people could understand you. I'm guessing it'll be lower than the reported Welsh speakers in the surveys.

 

[krus_aragon]

In North Wales along the coast I noticed a rather different demographic - it seems over-populated with Liverpudlian OAPs! Many of the pubs I have been in have Liverpudlian landlords, obviously English speaking. I did a lot of work at Wylfa power station in Anglesey, and the management were 75% English and 25% Welsh; they obviously worked in the English Language and I doubt if more than 10% were very capable at Welsh. OTOH the blue collar workers generally spoke Welsh; although they would readily speak English, and I guessed that speaking Welsh was a form of cameraderie among them. It did however act as a sharp divide between workers and management which made me a bit uneasy.

Along the coast, if you're following the old holiday resorts (Prestatyn, Rhyl, Towyn, Abergele, Colwyn, Llandudno, Conwy, Beaumaris, Benllech) then you'll certainly find a lot of English/Liverpudlian accents, as these population centres have grown with inward migration. If you venture south to the likes of Llanfair-Talhaearn, Bylchau, Llanrwst, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Bethesda, Caernarfon, and Pwllheli then you'll find more Welsh accents (and more spoken Welsh). Bangor is its own special case with the University and students and lecturers from around the world.

As a counter-example, in Llandudno you'll hear far more spoken Welsh on the streets on an off-season Saturday than at any other time of the year, as locals from the nearby Welsh-speaking heartlands come for a day's shopping, but there are few holidaymakers from further afield to "dilute" the sound. (Not quite the right word, but I can't think of a better one.)

With reference to Wylfa, my experience of the IT department (in the late 90s) was of an English-speaking nature only. While assurances were made in the 60's (and are being made again for the new power station) of employing local people, for more specialist roles where the local population doesn't have the required skill-base recruitment will be made from outside the area. The linguistic background of nearby Amlwch has changed markedly in the past half-century as a result.

 

[krus_aragon]

But what I actually came here to ask was whether there are any "rules" about TOCs using Welsh-language forms for places in England. You'll hear Caer (Chester) and Amwythig (Shrewsbury) in Welsh-language announcements, but not others. If they are going to use Amwythig, which is far from obvious if you don't know it, why not Birmingham Heol Newydd, Lerpwl Heol Galch, Manceinion Picadulu. Caerwysg Dewi Sant might be a step too far!

There are no legal requirements on private companies (e.g. TOCs) within Wales to do business through the medium of Welsh, let alone outside of Wales: the law as it stands only applies to public bodies.

The nearest thing I can refer you to off-hand is the Guidelines for Standardizing Place-names in Wales, which may make interesting reading.

(P.S. If Piccadilly were to be transliterated(!), Piciadili would be a more likely form IMHO.)

 

[175001]

Another Welsh bashing thread. It' been a while....

 

[J-Rod]

I think complicating this is a social class issue. In South Wales, generally Welsh-speakers are more upper-middle class and even upper-class. 'English speaking town' can be a synonym for working class or rough town.

^This. A few years ago at when I was at uni (of Glamorgan, I should add), we were down at the Aardvark running science workshops as part of the Urdd Eisteddfod. Some neckscarf wearing person came up to me and said something in Welsh and when I couldn't reply in kind, gave me a filthy look (like I shouldn't be there) and walked off... but my granddad spoke Welsh as a first language though, was born in Bynea and played for The Scarlets in the 30s. The only reason it never got passed along is that my grandparents wanted to have private conversations that my dad couldn't understand!

The whole language thing is a nice distraction from other issues, as has been pointed out numerous times on this thread. Also, I just don't *get* why some places have to have a made up Welsh name, as opposed to a perfectly good English one that no-one seems to mind anyway, Welsh speaker or not? Also, the converse seems to be true in the case of Llanelli (who spells it Lanelly now?). Have one name - Welsh or English, doesn't matter - that everyone uses and stick to it. Anything else is just political pandering. Easier to print a few signs than upgrade a few trains...

On a personal note, I had to move away from Swansea to get a job in what I wanted to do simply because I didn't speak Welsh.

 

[transmanche]

I suppose the test would be to enter into X numbers of shops or pubs in Cardiff/Newport/Caerphilly/wherever and ask for something in Welsh, and see how many people could understand you. I'm guessing it'll be lower than the reported Welsh speakers in the surveys.

That would only be helpful if shop/pub workers were a representative cross-section of society. Which is unlikely.

 

[cholsey-choose]

But what I actually came here to ask was whether there are any "rules" about TOCs using Welsh-language forms for places in England. You'll hear Caer (Chester) and Amwythig (Shrewsbury) in Welsh-language announcements, but not others. If they are going to use Amwythig, which is far from obvious if you don't know it, why not Birmingham Heol Newydd, Lerpwl Heol Galch, Manceinion Picadulu. Caerwysg Dewi Sant might be a step too far!

I've always wondered why English-speaking news announcers etc always pronounce Angela Merkel's first name 'properly', but don't give the same treatment to many other foreign leaders! It's all kind of arbitrary.

Wikipedia has the statistics for knowledge of Welsh as of 2011 census:>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_areas_by_percentage_of_Welsh-speakers

Earlier reference was made to Welsh speakers being generally middle or even upper class. This may be true in Cardiff where recent immigrants from the western Welsh speaking areas have moved east to be teachers, etc. However, Cardiff is so big that it would be completely wrong to make the assumption that the English speaking population are working class. Most well paid professionals such as Doctors, Solicitors, Dentists, Train Drivers in the Cardiff area will not be Welsh speakers. You are unlikely to find Welsh speakers moving to Cardiff to be in low paid manual jobs.

Many students from England who have attended University in Cardiff, are reluctant to leave and therefore seek careers in the city. Much commuting appears to take place between Cardiff > Newport and Bristol. The area appears to be becoming one big economic zone.

True, Cardiff is a bit of a special case. But most of the city's economic and social 'elite' are indeed Welsh speakers -- at least that is the perception amongst people in SW Wales. The phenomenon even has a wikipedia page! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crachach

I find that surprising. Perhaps that is the case in the Newport/Cardiff/Swansea areas, but hardly in the market towns nearer the English border. By no stretch could you call Monmouth, Chepstow, Hay, Usk and Abergavenny rough towns. In fact historically these are "English" towns (Norman to be strict) established in the old Marches, that grew up around Norman castles. They still feel English today.

Agreed, and to be honest I'm not sure many people 'deeper' in Wales would really consider these places to be in Wales. I don't really mean that in a negative way, but I doubt that most Welsh people (who are not interested in the railways, at least!) could reliably tell you that Shrewsbury is in England, but Hay is in Wales. I think when I was a teenager I would have guessed the other way around.

I was indeed referring to the industrial 'strip' that extends along the South coast west of Newport. Check out this paragraph from Richard Burton (Welsh actor)'s wikipedia page:

Richard was barely two years old when his mother died on 31 October, six days after the birth of Graham, the family's thirteenth child.[10] Edith's death was a result of postpartum infections; Richard believed it occurred due to "hygiene neglect".[15] According to biographer Michael Munn, Edith "was fastidiously clean", but that her exposure to the dust from the coal mines resulted in her death.[16] Following Edith's death, Richard's elder sister Cecilia, whom he affectionately addressed as "Cis", and her husband Elfed James, also a miner, took him under their care. Richard lived with Cis, Elfed and their two daughters, Marian and Rhianon, in their three bedroom terraced cottage on 73 Caradoc Street, Taibach, a suburban district in Port Talbot, which Bragg describes as "a tough steel town, English-speaking, grind and grime".[17][18]

 

[cholsey-choose]

That would only be helpful if shop/pub workers were a representative cross-section of society. Which is unlikely.

I suppose the test would be to enter into X numbers of shops or pubs in Cardiff/Newport/Caerphilly/wherever and ask for something in Welsh, and see how many people could understand you. I'm guessing it'll be lower than the reported Welsh speakers in the surveys.

I generally agree, but even in places like Newport there are lots of people who speak Welsh that you generally wouldn't know it. They are more comfortable in Welsh but it's rude to start speaking in Welsh unless you know the other person will understand you. Hence you get all the 'defnyddiwch eich mamiaith!' type campaigns.

I thought 'Bang' was a fairly good representation of Welsh speaking networks in South Wales.

 

[gareth950]

On a personal note, I had to move away from Swansea to get a job in what I wanted to do simply because I didn't speak Welsh.

Surely this is discrimination against non-Welsh speakers? I'm amazed that public bodies in Wales can get away with turning down people, who are otherwise suitably qualified for jobs, just because they don't speak Welsh.
And politicians complain about a brain drain of talent leaving Wales!

And no, i'm not anti Welsh language, but I am against discriminating against non-Welsh speakers, who have lived in Wales their entire lives.
If you don't go to a Welsh medium primary school, and your family doesn't speak Welsh, your chances of ever being fluent in the language are close to zero. Which is the same for any language, unless you start learning it at a young age, you're unlikely to ever be able to properly pick it up to be fluent.

The disdain shown towards non-Welsh speaking Welsh citizens by fluent Welsh speakers doesn't help, such as your experience at the Eisteddfodd.

 

[CambrianCoast]

^This. A few years ago at when I was at uni (of Glamorgan, I should add), we were down at the Aardvark running science workshops as part of the Urdd Eisteddfod. Some neckscarf wearing person came up to me and said something in Welsh and when I couldn't reply in kind, gave me a filthy look (like I shouldn't be there) and walked off... but my granddad spoke Welsh as a first language though, was born in Bynea and played for The Scarlets in the 30s. The only reason it never got passed along is that my grandparents wanted to have private conversations that my dad couldn't understand!

The whole language thing is a nice distraction from other issues, as has been pointed out numerous times on this thread. Also, I just don't *get* why some places have to have a made up Welsh name, as opposed to a perfectly good English one that no-one seems to mind anyway, Welsh speaker or not? Also, the converse seems to be true in the case of Llanelli (who spells it Lanelly now?). Have one name - Welsh or English, doesn't matter - that everyone uses and stick to it. Anything else is just political pandering. Easier to print a few signs than upgrade a few trains...

On a personal note, I had to move away from Swansea to get a job in what I wanted to do simply because I didn't speak Welsh.

“Made up” Welsh names. Wow this debate has just hit a new low. Pathetic, you’re all here ignorantly slating people’s lives, language and culture. Lines like “I have no problem with the Welsh language”. It’s NOT a choice, it’s a way of life no different to any other BILINGUAL nation on earth. The majority of the replies on here are teeming with breathtaking ignorance and shameful arrogance. Here you all are banging on about how the language of a proud, cultured nation is causing you immense feelings of scorn and disdain and what’s more pathetic, that it can surely cause problems on a railway sign in Wales! Are you that paranoid to think the Welsh Government would take it upon themselves to start translating names of stations in England? Wake up! Manceinion, Llundain, Lerpwl, these have all formed part of daily conversations across Wales for centuries. The majority of people around the world are bilingual. Deal with it. The things written and said here about the Welsh language and people are disgusting!

 

[6Gman]

Most of the villages concerned with mining etc would have taken their names from the farms on which they were built. Anywhere with Tre or Tref in the name would originally have referred to a home farm. In England the same often applies. The railway town of Crewe took its name from a farm.

Did it?

 

[6Gman]

But what I actually came here to ask was whether there are any "rules" about TOCs using Welsh-language forms for places in England. You'll hear Caer (Chester) and Amwythig (Shrewsbury) in Welsh-language announcements, but not others.

An ATW employee once told me that, as far as the scrolling information in the trains was concerned, the policy was that stations at which trains terminated were bilingual, but calling points were not. (The logic of this escaped both of us.)

So Manchester and Crewe were bilingual, but Whitchurch (Shrops) (for example) wasn't.

 

[gareth950]

“Made up” Welsh names. Wow this debate has just hit a new low. Pathetic, you’re all here ignorantly slating people’s lives, language and culture. Lines like “I have no problem with the Welsh language”. It’s NOT a choice, it’s a way of life no different to any other BILINGUAL nation on earth. The majority of the replies on here are teeming with breathtaking ignorance and shameful arrogance. Here you all are banging on about how the language of a proud, cultured nation is causing you immense feelings of scorn and disdain and what’s more pathetic, that it can surely cause problems on a railway sign in Wales! Are you that paranoid to think the Welsh Government would take it upon themselves to start translating names of stations in England? Wake up! Manceinion, Llundain, Lerpwl, these have all formed part of daily conversations across Wales for centuries. The majority of people around the world are bilingual. Deal with it. The things written and said here about the Welsh language and people are disgusting!

Do you agree with discriminating against non-Welsh speakers for public sector jobs, just because they don't speak Welsh, even though they otherwise are more than qualified for the job?
The national Assembly now insists that everyone who works there must speak Welsh. That is discriminating against a large section of the Welsh population.

As someone who has lived in Wales his entire life but does not speak Welsh, as my entire education has been solely in English, in Wales, that feels like discrimination to me.

 

[cholsey-choose]

“Made up” Welsh names. Wow this debate has just hit a new low. Pathetic, you’re all here ignorantly slating people’s lives, language and culture. Lines like “I have no problem with the Welsh language”. It’s NOT a choice, it’s a way of life no different to any other BILINGUAL nation on earth. The majority of the replies on here are teeming with breathtaking ignorance and shameful arrogance. Here you all are banging on about how the language of a proud, cultured nation is causing you immense feelings of scorn and disdain and what’s more pathetic, that it can surely cause problems on a railway sign in Wales! Are you that paranoid to think the Welsh Government would take it upon themselves to start translating names of stations in England? Wake up! Manceinion, Llundain, Lerpwl, these have all formed part of daily conversations across Wales for centuries. The majority of people around the world are bilingual. Deal with it. The things written and said here about the Welsh language and people are disgusting!

I think your tone is a bit much, but I actually kind of agree with you! It's kind of funny how Welsh versions of English words get mocked as "made up", but English borrowing foreign words is taken as proof of how open and diverse it is. What is 'Lan-elly' or 'Carmarthen' if not a made-up English name?

On the other hand, aeold y crachach dych chi?

 

[6Gman]

Surely this is discrimination against non-Welsh speakers? I'm amazed that public bodies in Wales can get away with turning down people, who are otherwise suitably qualified for jobs, just because they don't speak Welsh.

But there are roles where being able to speak Welsh is to be "suitably qualified". For example many teaching and care roles.

It's also really, really not that difficult for (most) people to learn a new language with good support and sufficient motivation.

 

[cholsey-choose]

But there are roles where being able to speak Welsh is to be "suitably qualified". For example many teaching and care roles.

It's also really, really not that difficult for (most) people to learn a new language with good support and sufficient motivation.

Agreed with the first part. It's policy of the Welsh govt that people in Wales should be able to deal with the government in Welsh or English, and you need Welsh speakers for that. So it is discrimination, but perfectly legitimate discrimination IMO.

The second part, I'm not so sure about. The special circumstances of minority languages (eg that everybody who speaks Welsh also speaks English, more or less) make them hard to learn. Once people get beyond a "cute beginner" phase, they can encounter pushback when they try to speak in Welsh: do you actually want to have a conversation with me, in which case it would be much simpler and easier to do it in English? or are you just using me for free language instruction? Learning Welsh is a very difficult task for an English speaker, for this reason.

(Similar with English people trying to learn Dutch, etc.)