Welsh easing of 2021 lockdown restrictions

[DB]

Would you make the same argument for parts of continental Europe where borders are equally meaningless?
Take some of the borders between Belgium and the Netherlands which have also seen some of the same issues as the Welsh / English border has done during the pandemic.
The issues of complex border behaviour is not unique to the UK - far from it. Yet other countries manage just fine with having different rules on either side of "open" borders.
In terms of legal systems - that has literally no relevance here.

They are separate sovereign countries which do have legal control of their borders - it is not the same as internal borders within the UK. So legal systems absolutely is of relevance - Wales is one legal system with England and has no control over its borders. Scotland is a separate legal jurisdiction in terms of domestic law, but this does not include border controls - so not at all the same as Belgium and the Netherlands in legal terms (although there may well be many similar issues on the ground in those countries).

It would be much more logical for all of the mainland UK to have one set of rules - which could easily have been done by not devolving pandemic response (separate sovereign countries are not in this position). Northern Ireland is a bit different and it would make more sense for that to agree to a joint poliy with the republic.

What we have ended up with is Drakeford and (especially) Sturgeon using it for political purposes and having to be different for the sake of it. That helps nobody.

 

[Bikeman78]

They are separate sovereign countries which do have legal control of their borders - it is not the same as internal borders within the UK. So legal systems absolutely is of relevance - Wales is one legal system with England and has no control over its borders. Scotland is a separate legal jurisdiction in terms of domestic law, but this does not include border controls - so not at all the same as Belgium and the Netherlands in legal terms (although there may well be many similar issues on the ground in those countries).

It gets even more interesting when you have towns that straddle the border, e.g. Vaals which crosses the Dutch/German border, see picture below taken in 1974. At the time the two countries had different currencies too.

Aachen - Vaals tram terminus and border post in 1974

An ASEAG tram is standing on the turning circle waiting to return to Brand at the other end of route 15. The border post to the right of the road is marked by German and Dutch flags. The two ladies with bags have no doubt been shopping in the Netherlands.

www.flickr.com

 

[AdamWW]

Meanwhile, like last year, we seem to have a two-speed relaxation of lockdown in Wales.

"Stay local" if you have a car.
"Stay home" if you need public transport, at least if it's a train.

At the moment while I can't see any mention in the news or on the government web site that there are any restrictions on public transport use, TFW Rail are making it very clear that their services remain for essential use only.

Somewhat curious perhaps that they are increasing services from Monday.

It will be interesting to see if the BTP continue asking people to show evidence that they are making a permitted journey.

 

[Markdvdman]

Stay Local will be lifted on the 27th but no doubt they will do what they can to keep on telling people not to use public transport which is a thorough disgrace!!!

It is also a disgrace he is still playing the social distancing and masks throughout 2021 card. That will do a LOT to bring business to Wales won't it?

He is a waste of space and cares not one iota for peoples well being as his cronies and himself will not be susceptible to job losses or furlough payments and just keep wanting their moments in the TV limelight!

 

[Yew]

Personally I don't think normal public health should be a devolved matter. It's fairly clear that all three governments (probably all four, but I have very little idea of what's going on in NI) have wildly overstepped the powers that they should have under public health laws. If what we are doing at the moment is necessary, then it should constitute a state of emergency, and the declaration of states of emergency should not be a devolved matter.

Indeed, I struggle to see a situation where the people drafting the PHA thought it would be used in such blanket and barbaric ways. The act was clearly designed to allow specific measures against individuals known to be infectious with highly deadly illnesses, rather than indiscriminate measures applied to a whole nation.

 

[AdamWW]

Stay Local will be lifted on the 27th but no doubt they will do what they can to keep on telling people not to use public transport which is a thorough disgrace!!!

If there are going to be restrictions I would like the government to acknowledge them rather than implying that everyone is free to travel (locally) and then leaving it to operators to say that they can't.

At present there is no indication of when the restrictions will be relaxed. Maybe the clue is in the name, but it seems that the government is keen to issue "road maps" for how people with cars will be able to travel in the weeks to come, but don't feel that those who rely on public transport should expect the same.

 

[317 forever]

This combined with Sturgeon shows exactly why public health should not be a devolved issue. Petty political games end up messing around with the livelihoods of real people and we end up in this game of 'who can be safest', resulting in politicians trashing their respective economies and the mental wellbeing of their collective nations in a bid to outdo each other for their own political gain.

Particularly as Covid is not a local Scottish or even just a UK issue, it is of course a global issue.

 

[david1212]

Mark Drakeford is expected to announce a relaxation of national restrictions in Wales tomorrow, the main headlines being:

• March 12th - scrapping "stay at home", replaced with "stay local";
• March 12th - four people from two households allowed to meet outdoors, and outdoor sport can restart;
• March 15th - hairdressers/barbers to reopen;
• March 22nd - the controversial "non-essential" item restrictions in "essential" stores to be revoked, garden centres also to reopen;
• April 12th - reopening of non-essential retail.

Welsh Government lockdown update on hairdressers, shops, garden centres and non-essential sales

Mark Drakeford will announce 'stay local' advice while golf clubs will also get to reopen from Saturday

www.business-live.co.uk

I simply can not see the logic of allowing hairdressers/barbers to reopen ahead of removal of the "non-essential" item restrictions in "essential" stores and the reopening of non-essential retail.

Over the last 12 months between the four UK countries there have been numerous illogical policies but to me this tops all of them.

 

[nlogax]

I simply can not see the logic of allowing hairdressers/barbers to reopen ahead of removal of the "non-essential" item restrictions in "essential" stores and the reopening of non-essential retail.

Over the last 12 months between the four UK countries there have been numerous illogical policies but to me this tops all of them.

Plenty of people out there more desperate for haircuts than for new curtains. I can understand the logic. Looks like home nations continue to enjoy the right to open x before y because devolution gives them that more local flexibility.

 

[TPO]

Or maybe devolution gives the Sennedd the ability to be more restrictive is a better way of putting it. I feel for all the independant small traders in Wales.

And why are garden centres in Wales not allowed to open yet, the experience in England hasn't caused any problems.

There's ways of showing local flexibility but retaining rules unnecessarily and unfairly isn't a good look.

TPO

 

[WelshBluebird]

Or maybe devolution gives the Sennedd the ability to be more restrictive is a better way of putting it

Well it isn't though, because they are loosening some rules before England are. So saying the Welsh Government are choosing to be more restrictive than England is just not true.

There's ways of showing local flexibility but retaining rules unnecessarily and unfairly isn't a good look.

Yet it is England who won't allow visits to self contained tourist accommodation over Easter whilst Wales allows it.
The reality is the devolved nations and Westminster are taking a different view on the priorities of what should reopen first.
And being honest, I don't think there is a right answer and I don't see any problems with the devolved nations decided what makes most sense in their eyes. The only real problems you get are around border towns, and to be blunt, the populations of those towns are low enough that the wider policy decisions shouldn't be based around them (although they probably should be some kind of easement in them - maybe the local councils should just decide which side of the border they should listen to and apply that to the entire Town rather than have half the town under one set of rules and the other half under other rules).

 

[Dai Corner]

Well it isn't though, because they are loosening some rules before England are. So saying the Welsh Government are choosing to be more restrictive than England is just not true.



Yet it is England who won't allow visits to self contained tourist accommodation over Easter whilst Wales allows it.
The reality is the devolved nations and Westminster are taking a different view on the priorities of what should reopen first.
And being honest, I don't think there is a right answer and I don't see any problems with the devolved nations decided what makes most sense in their eyes. The only real problems you get are around border towns, and to be blunt, the populations of those towns are low enough that the wider policy decisions shouldn't be based around them (although they probably should be some kind of easement in them - maybe the local councils should just decide which side of the border they should listen to and apply that to the entire Town rather than have half the town under one set of rules and the other half under other rules).

According to the UK Parliament Welsh Affairs Committee

From The 160 mile border between Wales and England is often described as "porous". This is understandable. 90% of the Welsh population lives within 50 miles of the English border. 30% of the combined English and Welsh population—some 16 million people—live within 50 miles of the border. As a result, there is a huge degree of travel between England and Wales throughout the year, be it commuters, business people, freight or leisure seekers. Some 138 million journeys take place each year on roads and trains across the border, an average of 2.6 million journeys each week.

House of Commons - Crossing the border: road and rail links between England and Wales - Welsh Affairs Committee

publications.parliament.uk

Chepstow having different rules to Beachley, just across the Wye in Gloucestershire, but the same rules as Holyhead at the opposite corner of Wales is a nonsense in public health terms. Especially if they take account of infection rates etc in Merthyr Tydfil, Pembroke, Llangollen and Wrexham.

 

[AdamWW]

Or maybe devolution gives the Sennedd the ability to be more restrictive is a better way of putting it. I feel for all the independant small traders in Wales.

Here in Wales we're no longer required to stay at home, just to stay "local".

Isn't England still at "stay at home"? And with non-essential shops (large and small) also shut?

In other news, TFW Rail seem to have quickly and quietly changed their message yo say you can travel if if your journey is essential or if you have no other means of transport (my italics).

The "essential travel only" message was apparently based on government advice, though I cannot find anywhere that the government has published such advice.

 

[Bikeman78]

Here in Wales we're no longer required to stay at home, just to stay "local".

Isn't England still at "stay at home"? And with non-essential shops (large and small) also shut?

In other news, TFW Rail seem to have quickly and quietly changed their message yo say you can travel if if your journey is essential or if you have no other means of transport (my italics).

The "essential travel only" message was apparently based on government advice, though I cannot find anywhere that the government has published such advice.

The roads in Cardiff were very busy today when I was out on my bike. However, looking at Google maps, the congestion appeared to be mainly local. The M4 was all green. No queues for the Brynglas tunnels or the Coldra. Free flowing through Bristol too.

Saw a few buses with "sorry bus full" on the front. Fortunately they are going back to normal freqencies on most routes with effect from this Sunday.

 

[duncanp]

But Mark Drakeford is still trying to scare the people of Wales by warning of a "third wave" and "further lockdowns in future".

He is "concerned" by reports from France.

But France hasn't been in a lockdown for the past two months, and they are well behind the UK on their vaccination program.

This is something Mr Drakeford appears to have forgotten.

I am surprised we haven't heard similar scare stories from Nicola Sturgeon, but perhaps she has other things on her mind at the moment.

From the Sky News live feed:-

A third wave of coronavirus could hit Wales and lead to further lockdowns in the future, the first minister has warned.

Mark Drakeford spoke as Paris and 15 other French regions went into a month-long coronavirus lockdown today, over fears of a third wave of the virus.

In Wales over the last week there have been two localised virus flare-ups in Merthyr and Anglesey, which the first minister attributed to people not sticking to the rules over household mixing and social distancing.

Mr Drakeford told a Welsh government briefing he was "concerned" by reports from France.

"As things are improving and our aim of course will be for things to go on improving, for us to be able to do more to restore freedoms to people over the weeks and months ahead," he said.

"But coronavirus has been full of unpleasant surprises.

"Just as we have seen in Paris over the last few days, France was doing incredibly well only a few weeks ago and are now finding a sudden and significant flare-up.

"Nobody should think that we are immune from that, nobody should think we can drop our guard and plan on the basis that coronavirus has gone away."

Mr Drakeford said the public health situation in Wales remains stable at around 44 cases per 100,000 people and a positivity rate of 3.9%.

 

[TPO]

But Mark Drakeford is still trying to scare the people of Wales by warning of a "third wave" and "further lockdowns in future".

He is "concerned" by reports from France.

But France hasn't been in a lockdown for the past two months, and they are well behind the UK on their vaccination program.

This is something Mr Drakeford appears to have forgotten.

I am surprised we haven't heard similar scare stories from Nicola Sturgeon, but perhaps she has other things on her mind at the moment.

From the Sky News live feed:-

Rise in cases vs rise in hospital admissions vs rise in deaths.

Three different measures, case rate rise with the high-risk groups immunised does not necessarily translate into rise in death rate. Hospitalisation rates down massively, ditto death rates.

I see the blame game there on individuals for increase of cases, yet little in the news about the outbreak in a N Wales hospital........

As the vaccination programme rolls out further, the measure used to justify a lack of relaxing lockdown needs to be challenged more strongly.

TPO

 

[Ediswan]

yet little in the news about the outbreak in a N Wales hospital........

I agree it is not making the news, but NHS Wales seem to open about their hospital acquired infections https://bcuhb.nhs.wales/news/updates-and-developments/updates/covid-19-outbreaks-in-north-wales/

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, it would appear so. Male curfews have no place in any civilised society. And in any case such a policy would be deeply misguided, as it’s still very much the case that most people are harmed by people they know, not by random people on the streets after dark.

The concept of a subset of the population having rules applied to it, is just wrong. Should be all or none.

Just imagine if the subset selected had been something like Muslims, blond women, deaf, single parents etc

He is suggesting a split by gender, which I also disagree with as everyone should be treated equally

 

[TPO]

The concept of a subset of the population having rules applied to it, is just wrong. Should be all or none.

Just imagine if the subset selected had been something like Muslims, blond women, deaf, single parents etc

He is suggesting a split by gender, which I also disagree with as everyone should be treated equally

You missed the point of what was a tongue in cheek suggestion.

Women who feel unsafe to be out after dark or late evening due to threat posed by (some) men are generally told not to go out then, to stay safe indoors.

That is deemed OK, yet if we suggest a curfew for men instead it is not deemed OK.

The point is the double standards this represents. Telling women to stay in is same as curfew just phrased differently.

Whilst not all men attack women, when women see attacked it is almost invariably men who do so.

As for equality, I can assure you that misogyny is very much alive and kicking and equality is a long way away. Won't see it in my lifetime.

TPO

 

[seagull]

As for equality, I can assure you that misogyny is very much alive and kicking and equality is a long way away.

TPO

As is misandry. And yes, equality so that men don't have to work twice as hard or with worse hours to cover for female colleagues being accommodated through a lifestyle choice is indeed a long way off.

 

[yorkie]

Can we get back on topic please.

Does anyone have any ideas when it may be allowable to stay in a hotel in Wales for leisure purposes? Could that happen during May?

 

[Dai Corner]

Can we get back on topic please.

Does anyone have any ideas when it may be allowable to stay in a hotel in Wales for leisure purposes? Could that happen during May?

Here's the latest 'Coronavirus Control Plan' published today.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2021-03/coronavirus-control-plan-revised-alert-levels-in-wales-march-2021.pdf

The only announcement so far is that 'self-contained' holiday accommodation may be allowed to open from Saturday 27th March but they'll let us know some time next week. I think 'self-contained' includes hotels offering room service only - no restaurants / dining rooms / bars.

 

[Kite159]

The only announcement so far is that 'self-contained' holiday accommodation may be allowed to open from Saturday 27th March but they'll let us know some time next week. I think 'self-contained' includes hotels offering room service only - no restaurants / dining rooms / bars.

If it's like England, than "Self-contained" excludes hotels due to having shared areas (reception/hall-ways). Probably will be Caravan parks, camper vans, holiday cottages, boats

Like being in a reception area or passing someone in a hallway is any more dangerous than being in a supermarket.

 

[Bobdogs]

Here's the latest 'Coronavirus Control Plan' published today.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2021-03/coronavirus-control-plan-revised-alert-levels-in-wales-march-2021.pdf

The only announcement so far is that 'self-contained' holiday accommodation may be allowed to open from Saturday 27th March but they'll let us know some time next week. I think 'self-contained' includes hotels offering room service only - no restaurants / dining rooms / bars.

Fine, as long as it's less than 5 miles from home?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Fine, as long as it's less than 5 miles from home?

There are no travel restrictions in law in England. At present you need a "reasonable excuse" to leave your home, of which there is a non exhaustive list outlined in law. This will no longer be the case from March 29th however, when "Stay at Home" is dropped.

Edit: that'll teach me not to reply to threads when just awake... this is the Welsh thread!

 

[kristiang85]

Drakeford can get in the sea.

Covid: Boris Johnson's roadmap very optimistic - Mark Drakeford

Mark Drakeford says he wants to be honest and realistic, not "paint the most optimistic plan I can".

www.bbc.co.uk

Mr Drakeford said: "I want to be honest and realistic with people in Wales, rather than simply trying to paint the most optimistic picture that I can.

Why not point to the Welsh statistics - the 7 day average is 205 cases a day and 5 deaths within 28 days of a positive test. In a county of 3 million, that is miniscule.

"I think some of the suggestions that the UK government are making seem to be at the very optimistic end of the spectrum and not fully to take into account the advice we are having of the risks that will still be with us in the rest of this calendar year."

How about the risks to peoples' non COVID health, mental health, jobs, etc.?

"But do I think that means that everything will be over, that there'll be no dangers, no risks to people, hospitals completely free of coronavirus? That's not the advice that I get from our chief medical officer."
He said he did not ever expect to see the virus "gone completely".

So what is the point where it is an acceptable risk?

But he said Wales, as a result of lockdown and vaccinations, was getting closer than ever to "a point where coronavirus is a condition that we are managing and, crucially, we are managing it in a way that does not run the risk of it all catching fire again and putting us back into the difficulties we've had to experience in the last 12 months".
"That's the point that I want to get to."

Has nobody explained vaccines and/or immunity to you yet? Or do you not believe in them?

 

[Tezza1978]

Drakeford can get in the sea.

Covid: Boris Johnson's roadmap very optimistic - Mark Drakeford

Mark Drakeford says he wants to be honest and realistic, not "paint the most optimistic plan I can".

www.bbc.co.uk

Why not point to the Welsh statistics - the 7 day average is 205 cases a day and 5 deaths within 28 days of a positive test. In a county of 3 million, that is miniscule.



How about the risks to peoples' non COVID health, mental health, jobs, etc.?



So what is the point where it is an acceptable risk?



Has nobody explained vaccines and/or immunity to you yet? Or do you not believe in them?

Drakeford is an absolute fool. Most commentators have thought Johnson's roadmap was very cautious - its not "highly optimistic". Welsh business groups need to be ripping him to pieces over statements like this and start asking tough questions. I think there is a CHANCE the final England relaxation might be pushed back a week or two to beginning of July if vaccine supply gets constrained (not that I agree with that) - but the idea that Wales will continue some of the main restrictions for all of 2021 is laughable. Expect half of Wales to travel to Bristol, Hereford, Chester and Liverpool for holidays and entertainment if so - and there is nothing he will be able to do to stop it.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I have agreed with many of the Welsh ways until now (phased return to schools, meeting limited people sooner) however Drakeford's view here is now becoming simply disillusioned.

 

[AdamWW]

In other new, TFW Rail are now saying that people are allowed to use their trains for non-essential journeys in Wales if there is no other means of transport available.

It's in a somewhat half-hearted and contradictory manner though, as in this tweet which says in text "We want to emphasise that our services are for essential journeys only (or if you have no other alternative) and anyone making an essential journey should visit Journeycheck" then includes an image which says in large unfriendly red letters "Only travel if your journey is essential". (Their bold).

And I can't find anything in the government web pages saying that public transport should be restricted to those who can't drive, cycle or walk for their journey.

(I'm assuming that TFW Rail don't actually mean that people should get the bus if they can rather than going by train).

 

[Dai Corner]

From today

• Self-contained holiday accommodation, including hotels with en-suite facilities and room service, will be able to reopen to people from the same household or support bubble.

• The stay local rule will be replaced by an interim all-Wales travel area, which will remain in place until April 12, subject to the public health situation. For the next two weeks, only those with a reasonable excuse,such as work, will be able to travel into or out of Wales.

• 6 people from 2 different households, excluding children under 11, will be able to meet and exercise outdoors and in private gardens
• organised outdoor activities and sports for children and under 18s will be able to resume
• there will be a limited opening of outdoor areas of some historic places and gardens
• libraries and archives will be able to re-open

Wales’ tourism sector starts to re-open as restrictions are relaxed | GOV.WALES

Wales’ tourism sector will be able to start re-opening from Saturday March 27 as the stay-local rule is lifted, First Minister Mark Drakeford has announced.

gov.wales