Welwyn Garden City to London Kings X via Stevenage Routing Question

[TurnipFarmer]

Hey Guys

New to the forums and been reading about routing.

Ive tried the routing guide on ATOCs website but just understand it. Could anybody tell me if going from Welwyn Garden City to London Kings X via Stevenage is a permitted route as in some cases it looks quicker to do it that way sometimes (mainly at weekends) rather than having to go direct?

Cheers guys

 

[yorkie]

Which part did you get stuck on?

RPs for WGC are Finsbury Park and Stevenage, the fares check rule rules out using Stevenage as a RP.

 

[will1337]

On a similar note, in the opposite direction, is a Travelcard + Boundary Zone 6 to Stevenage allowed either way from KGX? I've been wondering as I've yet to do the Hertford Loop.

 

[TurnipFarmer]

Sorry but what does RP mean?

I was just seeing it as another option. If there major engineering work on mainline between WGC and Stevenage (in early mornings and late evenings) it would in theory be quicker to go to Stevenage and then go into KGX via the Hertford Loop and was just trying to find out if a ticket from WGC to KGX would be valid to go this way as a permitted route?

Sorry should have mentioned this earlier but from what you saying going that way is not an option?

OK what about this one too, going from KGX to WGC however you go from KGX to Stevenage direct and then catch a service back to WGC, is this a permitted route?

 

[Royston Vasey]

OK what about this one too, going from KGX to WGC however you go from KGX to Stevenage direct and then catch a service back to WGC, is this a permitted route?

Would think this is a bit different as you're going further than you've paid to go in the same direction (rather than going the wrong way then back again) so could theoretically go to Stevenage and not return to WGC without quite paying to do so. So would guess not. Having said that during manned hours the ticket barriers at Stevenage would stop you leaving. Not all hours though IIRC

 

[TurnipFarmer]

ok cool, what about the first scenario in my 1st post then?

 

[dan_atki]

On a similar note, in the opposite direction, is a Travelcard + Boundary Zone 6 to Stevenage allowed either way from KGX? I've been wondering as I've yet to do the Hertford Loop.

It would be valid via any direct train service to Stevenage - even so you can get half way up the Hertford Loop on a TC anyways and then continue from there!

Sorry but what does RP mean?

RP stands for Routeing Point - an ATOC classification for stations associated with determining permitted routes. I.e. for stations around Stevenage one of their associated routeing points would be SVG as it is easier to decide a routeing from SVG to other routeing points than it is every station being treated individually.

Sorry should have mentioned this earlier but from what you saying going that way is not an option?

OK what about this one too, going from KGX to WGC however you go from KGX to Stevenage direct and then catch a service back to WGC, is this a permitted route?

The first is invalid based on the fare check rule which ATOC use to determine valid routeings and associated routeing points.

The second is invalid as it is 'doubling back' - you are not allowed to go through the same station twice on your journey (here you would every station between WGC and SVG) except where you are interchanging within what is defined as a special group of stations (these are found on the routeing guide along with examples), or where an easement applies. Neither apply to this situation so you cannot travel via SVG.

This would also fail the fare check rule.

 

[yorkie]

On a similar note, in the opposite direction, is a Travelcard + Boundary Zone 6 to Stevenage allowed either way from KGX? I've been wondering as I've yet to do the Hertford Loop.

Yep

Sorry but what does RP mean?

Routeing point. I guess you got stuck at the stage where you have to see if a RP is appropriate?

 

[Royston Vasey]

ok cool, what about the first scenario in my 1st post then?

This got me wondering so checked the Train Line and for £8.10 single it allows a journey via Hitchin (though that's probably just so the connection waiting time is lower) taking 1hr 1min tomorrow morning as an example. So maybe it's a yes... Some of the FCC guys on here may know better.

There can't be much in it though, even with a tight connection at Stevenage surely??

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just forget this post is here!!!!

 

[dan_atki]

I find this question quite interesting because if Stevenage is a valid route then provided you have a ticket which allows breaks of journey the barrier staff at Stevenage would have no option but to let you out of the station there. Now here is the interesting bit:

The routeing points for Welwyn Garden City are Stevenage and Finsbury Park, which, because you can't double back between routeing points, rules out Hitchen as a valid route, it being north of Stevenage.

The fare check rule shows that Stevenage IS a possible routeing point ( WGC-KGX=£8.10 sgl, WGC-SVG=£4.40 sgl). You can't double back before a routeing point, nor between them, but there is no double back using the Hertford loop and there is no rule saying you can't pass through a station between routeing points that you passed through on the way to the routeing point, a loophole maybe but if you need them!....

I'm not so sure I follow this too well.

IF SVG is indeed a valid routeing (but only for travel via Hertford to avoid doubling back) then travel via Hitchin is also allowed because both Hitchin and Stevenage are part of Stevenage group.

GROUP STATIONS

The stations listed at the bottom of this page are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

STEVENAGE GROUP
Hitchin Stevenage

Now for the dreaded fare check on Stevenage. The routeing guide says:

The fare-check rule is that a journey is allowed by an origin or destination routeing point if the fare for the whole journey via that routeing point is not less than the fare from the origin to the destination routeing point and not less than the fare from the origin routeing point to the destination.

Fare for the whole journey via SVG is what's being disputed and here we are hoping that a WGC-KGX single is valid here. The price of this ticket must not be less than the cost of WGC-KGX, nor less than the fare SVG-KGX.

Well it's defintely not less than the WGC-KGX as they are the same price! However, it is less than the SVG-KGX fare so the fare check rule is NOT satisfied.

Now this doubling back issue you mention.

The routeing guide says:

FINDING APPROPRIATE ROUTEING POINTS
Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not
use routes not permitted for the journey
cause doubling back (passing through the same station twice between origin and destination)
make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).
allow travel by a route which does not satisfy the fare-check rule. This rule is explained in the box below.

Passing through ANY station more than once on your journey is FORBIDDEN unless:
- you interchange via a designated group of stations;
- your ticket permits it;
- a routeing guide easement says you can do so.

Despite this, IF going via SVG was valid and travel to KGX was then undertaken via Hertford what doubling back would occur anyway :?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Darn it, I'm having one of those mornings!!!!!

yes Hitchen is in Stevenage group....ooops.

And I misread some stuff, sorry everyone:cry::cry:

I'll sit in the corner........

Doesn't really answer how my Fastis says its valid via Hitchen though, must just be wrong, I guess, not that I'd ever sell that ticket mind....

Edit: Slightly off thread, but, why is there an 'Easement' for tickets from Harpenden/Luton/Leagrave/Harlington/Flitwick to Wellingborough or stations north of Leicester routed 'Not London' to be valid via Bedford only then?

 

[dan_atki]

Edit: Slightly off thread, but, why is there an 'Easement' for tickets from Harpenden/Luton/Leagrave/Harlington/Flitwick to Wellingborough or stations north of Leicester routed 'Not London' to be valid via Bedford only then?

I'm assuming you mean easement 000083: "Journeys from Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick to stations north of Leicester on tickets routed Not London are valid only via Bedford, Kettering and Leicester. This easement applies in both directions."

Also 030031: "Journeys from Wellingborough to Luton and beyond may travel via Bedford (Midland). This easement applies in both directions."

Admittedly these are rather odd when they seem blatantly obvious (especially the second).

What is rather odd about the first is the only mapped route from Bedford RP to ex-MML stations north of Leicester is on map MM which shows, funnily enough, the Midland Mainline.

Now if fares to Watford were set by a different company than those to Bedford (for stations north of Leicester) I could understand it - it would probably be so that if the fare check allowed you to also use Watford as a RP, you couldn't go via SAC, SAA, WFJ and then have a choice of routes to NOT:

- one is via Derby
- one is via Bedford anyway on the Marston Vale line
- one is via Stafford/Coventry/Lichfield
- one is via Birmingham and Leicester

Using one of these on a LUT-NOT ticket would be rather exploiting even though the route is valid hence the 'easement' which is more of a restriction.

However, the fares WFJ-NOT, BDM-NOT, and LUT-NOT are all set by EMT so this doesn't make sense :?

 

[TurnipFarmer]

wow it can get quite complicated.

so dan_atki you dont think its valid due to the price rule?

 

[dan_atki]

Put simply and bluntly, no