Were/are suburban services on the SR Central section conisdered the "Cinderella" of the SR?

[Revaulx]

Very interesting post.

I’d always wondered how SE came to get VEPs, as they’re hardly a “mainline” spec - even if mechanically they were identical to CIGs.

To be fair they worked quite well on the coastal routes. Somehow they seemed to fit well, even if some people found them a bit draughty (I never found this an issue personally).

In fact I preferred VEPs to CEPs, not being quite old enough to have experienced the latter in their original state. They’ll never build such quality trains again, though to be fair the 375s with their Connex interiors are a very worthy replacement.

When I started at university in Canterbury in 1976 VEPs were virtually unknown in East Kent. By the time I left three years later they were all too common.

The CEPs were still in their original state back then. They certainly looked well used and a bit tatty, but they felt like proper main line trains. The VEPs reminded me of the 115s on the CLC, though without the throaty exhaust roar.

 

[30907]

Very interesting post.

I’d always wondered how SE came to get VEPs, as they’re hardly a “mainline” spec - even if mechanically they were identical to CIGs.

They started on the secondary services (Maidstone "fasts"...) to supplement the HAPs and cope with growth, but they were particularly useful on the SE for their seating capacity: the Ramsgate via Chatham "fasts" were CEPs but places like Rainham just grew and once the 70s timetable had used up every available path the only way to cope was swapping in one or more VEPs.

 

[Journeyman]

They started on the secondary services (Maidstone "fasts"...) to supplement the HAPs and cope with growth, but they were particularly useful on the SE for their seating capacity: the Ramsgate via Chatham "fasts" were CEPs but places like Rainham just grew and once the 70s timetable had used up every available path the only way to cope was swapping in one or more VEPs.

Did the Kent Coast electrification create a significant "sparks effect", then, or was it more a case of demographic changes?

 

[yorksrob]

Did the Kent Coast electrification create a significant "sparks effect", then, or was it more a case of demographic changes?

There's an interesting article on the Kent Electrification Scheme on the Southern Electric Group website:

Kent Coast Electrification Scheme

with the following snippet:

The electrification scheme produced a major increase in traffic on the lines covered. During the 9 months following the introduction of Phase One services, traffic levels as measured by numbers of tickets sold increased by 32%. Certain stations showed quite spectacular increases in ticket sales - at Canterbury West, for example, sales increased by 49.5% comparing the first 9 months of electrification with the previous 9 months, whilst at Teynham the corresponding figure was 155%.

In terms of the VEP's, I found them perfectly nice trains, particularly as one could get a compartment a lot of the time.

 

[bramling]

They started on the secondary services (Maidstone "fasts"...) to supplement the HAPs and cope with growth, but they were particularly useful on the SE for their seating capacity: the Ramsgate via Chatham "fasts" were CEPs but places like Rainham just grew and once the 70s timetable had used up every available path the only way to cope was swapping in one or more VEPs.

Again, interesting. It explains how they found their way to the coast.

The VEPs, although disliked by some, must have been a good train to have proved so versatile. Few designs are truly capable of successfully handling the full triple crown of metro, outer suburban and express use.

Ironically the 365s in their original form made a fair crack at it too, their wide gangways being able to take more standees than something like a 317 or 455, though they would never have coped with metro work as well as a VEP.

 

[Southern]

I've thought that too, from my time communting into Victoria I got the impression they transferred into Waterloo. That said, the Underground platforms at Victoria are always busy, but perhaps they're going onto longer distance routes.

I wonder how busy trains on the Dulwich to London Bridge line are? Considering its only two trains an hour on the Norbury Line to London Bridge I'd imagine most people get off at Balham for the Northern Line.

Not sure about now but when I used to live in the Peckham/Camberwell area, it was standing room only from Peckham Rye in the mornings. Evenings and again, most (including myself) got off at Rye, all piling down into that nasty stairwell often made even more fun when the arrival of a London Bridge train co-incided with a Victoria/Blackfriars service.

Think some posters who were inferring that the bus is usually the better option seem to forget areas such as Old Kent Road, Camberwell Green and Elephant & Castle, all absolute nightmares when trying to get in from South London to Central by road.

 

[bramling]

I'd say the original 2+2 seats in 375s and 377s are about the nicest modern train interiors you'll find anywhere.

Absolutely. The 365s in their original form were pretty good too. The colour scheme worked well IMO - very restful.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Again, interesting. It explains how they found their way to the coast.

The VEPs, although disliked by some, must have been a good train to have proved so versatile. Few designs are truly capable of successfully handling the full triple crown of metro, outer suburban and express use.

Ironically the 365s in their original form made a fair crack at it too, their wide gangways being able to take more standees than something like a 317 or 455, though they would never have coped with metro work as well as a VEP.

I know that it is far from the 'Central Division' purpose of this thread but I have to support this 'shout out' for the VEPs as an 'operator's train'. Morning peak on the Medway, on the platform as a local manager. 12-car runs in on a 'fast Cannon Street'. 100 doors to choose from. Commuters well spread out along the length of the train. 200 pax join and on the move again in 25 seconds on the stopwatch.

(Didn't work so well if it was pouring with rain at Rainham with minimal canopies.)

We had had the HAPs in North Kent after their banishment from Folkstone-Dover but people seemed to hate them. They were sent off to the Central Division Coastway lines as 4-CAPs, permanently coupled.

The re-furbished CEPs were well liked but had appalling capacity and dwell times compared to the VEPs.

As a passenger I found the VEPs noisy, draughty and uncomfortable on a longer run.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I know that it is far from the 'Central Division' purpose of this thread but I have to support this 'shout out' for the VEPs as an 'operator's train'. Morning peak on the Medway, on the platform as a local manager. 12-car runs in on a 'fast Cannon Street'. 100 doors to choose from. Commuters well spread out along the length of the train. 200 pax join and on the move again in 25 seconds on the stopwatch.

(Didn't work so well if it was pouring with rain at Rainham with minimal canopies.)

We had had the HAPs in North Kent after their banishment from Folkstone-Dover but people seemed to hate them. They were sent off to the Central Division Coastway lines as 4-CAPs, permanently coupled.

The re-furbished CEPs were well liked but had appalling capacity and dwell times compared to the VEPs.

As a passenger I found the VEPs noisy, draughty and uncomfortable on a longer run.

Haha, it's okay, I've noticed that most SR threads on this forum skew heavily towards the Eastern Section. I think its users had a particular fondness for it that Western and Central passengers didn't.

 

[yorksrob]

As a passenger I found the VEPs noisy, draughty and uncomfortable on a longer run.

I nice, fast, non-stop run on that preserved VEP around the main lines of Kent would be just the thing for after this pandemic.

 

[Timmyd]

Not sure about now but when I used to live in the Peckham/Camberwell area, it was standing room only from Peckham Rye in the mornings. Evenings and again, most (including myself) got off at Rye, all piling down into that nasty stairwell often made even more fun when the arrival of a London Bridge train co-incided with a Victoria/Blackfriars service.

Think some posters who were inferring that the bus is usually the better option seem to forget areas such as Old Kent Road, Camberwell Green and Elephant & Castle, all absolute nightmares when trying to get in from South London to Central by road.

A lot has changed over recent years to affect the dynamics of these services, but there is a fundamental issue of slowness which affects a number of the Southern lines. I live equidistant between West Dulwich and West Norwood stations, but the journey times to Victoria are 13 and 23 minutes respectively, so you'd always go to WDU. I'd say on the trains from West Norwood more alight at Clapham Junction than Victoria. From areas like Streatham there are incredibly frequent and reasonably quick buses connecting with the Victoria Line at Brixton, which is a very fast tube line, and also more likely to take people where they want to go than a train which terminates at Victoria.

Demographic change has played a part. The line via Peckham Rye was always a bit of a backwater but then previously unfashionable areas like East Dulwich became popular with young professionals who commute to the City, and I imagine peak hour usage of that station must have shot up since the 2000s, in normal times morning high peak trains are very busy leaving that station.

The other factor is the Overground, which means a lot of passengers pile out at Peckham Rye and change, the connections off Southern into Overground towards Canada Water work well. This trend has been even more marked on the Forest Hill line, where the extension of the platforms to 10 car coincided with the arrival of the Overground, which has turned out to be much more popular not just with Canary Wharf commuters but also people travelling to the west end for the easier (although very busy) Jubilee Line interchange there. So that means that 10 car Southern trains to London Bridge are quite lightly loaded, especially towards the rear, while the 5 car Overground trains are rammed.

 

[30907]

Haha, it's okay, I've noticed that most SR threads on this forum skew heavily towards the Eastern Section. I think its users had a particular fondness for it that Western and Central passengers didn't.

Not sure I was specially fond of it, but it's the Division I used the most.

Southern's point about Peckham Rye is interesting - I didn't recall the station as particularly busy in the 70s, but I didn't change there in the peaks. And as Timmyd says, things have changed (not just on the Central) massively since then.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

A lot has changed over recent years to affect the dynamics of these services, but there is a fundamental issue of slowness which affects a number of the Southern lines. I live equidistant between West Dulwich and West Norwood stations, but the journey times to Victoria are 13 and 23 minutes respectively, so you'd always go to WDU. I'd say on the trains from West Norwood more alight at Clapham Junction than Victoria. From areas like Streatham there are incredibly frequent and reasonably quick buses connecting with the Victoria Line at Brixton, which is a very fast tube line, and also more likely to take people where they want to go than a train which terminates at Victoria.

Yes, the time difference between the Crystal Palace line and the Chatham main was one of the things I had in mind. It's a pity the Victorian middle classes of Clapham objected to the LBSCR being run through Clapham Common straight towards Battersea, which would have resulted in quicker journey times to Victoria.

That's why I wonder whether the Crystal Palace line might be better off with a regular Thameslink service, which would take a much more direct route to Central London than swinging through Wandsworth.

 

[yorksrob]

Southern's point about Peckham Rye is interesting - I didn't recall the station as particularly busy in the 70s, but I didn't change there in the peaks.

It didn't look particularly busy when John Thaw and Dennis Waterman were running all over it in The Sweeney.

 

[bramling]

I nice, fast, non-stop run on that preserved VEP around the main lines of Kent would be just the thing for after this pandemic.

How absolutely lovely that would be. I remember the special non-stop speed run from Dover to Victoria done in the final year or so of the CEPs, very spectacular indeed to be leaning out of the drop light adjacent to the bay of seats at the very front of the train as the driver approached Tonbridge on the centre roads at pretty much full speed, my recollection is the brakes only came on at about the road bridge at the country end of the platforms, the driver judged the reduction in speed for the junction and curves absolutely perfectly, and had the motors straight in again for the climb towards Sevenoaks.

An experience that will probably never be replicated ever again.

 

[yorksrob]

How absolutely lovely that would be. I remember the special non-stop speed run from Dover to Victoria done in the final year or so of the CEPs, very spectacular indeed to be leaning out of the drop light adjacent to the bay of seats at the very front of the train as the driver approached Tonbridge on the centre roads at pretty much full speed, my recollection is the brakes only came on at about the road bridge at the country end of the platforms, the driver judged the reduction in speed for the junction and curves absolutely perfectly, and had the motors straight in again for the climb towards Sevenoaks.

An experience that will probably never be replicated ever again.

Indeed. Sadly I missed out on that on, but it sounds as though it was a good run !

 

[bramling]

Indeed. Sadly I missed out on that on, but it sounds as though it was a good run !

It was one of the most memorable train rides I’ve ever been on for sure.

Having said that, in the days of the boat trains I imagine that sort of run was actually fairly typical!

 

[Taunton]

The HAP units had no more asbestos than other comparable vehicles. When the 1978 serious collision of CIG units between Haywards Heath and Brighton occurred, with major bodywork damage, there had to be considerable steps taken to contain the asbestos insulation that was exposed.

The most spectacular run I had on the Southern Electric was back in the 1980s from Southampton Parkway nonstop to Waterloo, Expecting the normal 12-car REP/TC to arrive, what turned up, several minutes late, was a single 4-VEP. Just about enough seats. This proceeded to run to Waterloo absolutely flat out, at what felt like a bit exceeding the speed limit for much of the journey, and actually regained time.

 

[Journeyman]

The most spectacular run I had on the Southern Electric was back in the 1980s from Southampton Parkway nonstop to Waterloo, Expecting the normal 12-car REP/TC to arrive, what turned up, several minutes late, was a single 4-VEP. Just about enough seats. This proceeded to run to Waterloo absolutely flat out, at what felt like a bit exceeding the speed limit for much of the journey, and actually regained time.

I think the VEPs had a slightly more powerful variant of the EE507 motor - if I'm right, they were 275hp rather than 250, so it gave them a performance advantage. I'm not sure how much that meant in practice, but clearly meant something!

 

[yorksrob]

It was one of the most memorable train rides I’ve ever been on for sure.

Having said that, in the days of the boat trains I imagine that sort of run was actually fairly typical!

Yes, I've had a few non-stop runs between Ashford and Tonbridge and it's a good stretch !

 

[Galvanize]

Yes, the time difference between the Crystal Palace line and the Chatham main was one of the things I had in mind. It's a pity the Victorian middle classes of Clapham objected to the LBSCR being run through Clapham Common straight towards Battersea, which would have resulted in quicker journey times to Victoria.

That's why I wonder whether the Crystal Palace line might be better off with a regular Thameslink service, which would take a much more direct route to Central London than swinging through Wandsworth.

Would have suited some Family Friends who live in Crystal Palace...one (possibly now retired) worked around the Farringdon/Clerkenwell area, and would normally drive to Herne Hill (almost as the crow flies from Crystal Palace Parade) to catch a Thameslink train into Central London, far easier than changing at Tulse Hill or London Bridge in rush hour!

 

[Timmyd]

Yes, the time difference between the Crystal Palace line and the Chatham main was one of the things I had in mind. It's a pity the Victorian middle classes of Clapham objected to the LBSCR being run through Clapham Common straight towards Battersea, which would have resulted in quicker journey times to Victoria.

That's why I wonder whether the Crystal Palace line might be better off with a regular Thameslink service, which would take a much more direct route to Central London than swinging through Wandsworth.

I'd agree with that and I'm sure demand is there - a lot of people change Southern (Crystal Palace line) to Thameslink at Tulse Hill morning and evening. But then Streatham Hill wouldn't have a service if the trains diverted to Thameslink after West Norwood (unless the 4 usual Victorias became 2 Victoria 2 Thameslink).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'd agree with that and I'm sure demand is there - a lot of people change Southern (Crystal Palace line) to Thameslink at Tulse Hill morning and evening. But then Streatham Hill wouldn't have a service if the trains diverted to Thameslink after West Norwood (unless the 4 usual Victorias became 2 Victoria 2 Thameslink).

I think you'd still need regular Victoria trains because they provide a useful link with Balham and Battersea. I was thinking 4tph to Victoria and 4tph Thameslink. Although, I can't see that working at Tulse Hill.

You could I suppose, route everything to Victoria and have an interchange station where the Victoria and Dulwich lines cross over at Norwood.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I would definitely describe the SE as the Cinderella at the moment, yesterday I got the 15:19 from London Bridge going to Ashford International, it was the busiest train I've been on since lockdown, at Padlock Wood a lot of school children got on so the idea of social distance was impossible, in normal times this route would see eight coaches twice an hour, at the moment it sees four coaches once an hour, totally inadequate now that the schools are back, the train after mine would have been even busier picking up an enormous amount of children at Tonbridge.

 

[bramling]

I would definitely describe the SE as the Cinderella at the moment, yesterday I got the 15:19 from London Bridge going to Ashford International, it was the busiest train I've been on since lockdown, at Padlock Wood a lot of school children got on so the idea of social distance was impossible, in normal times this route would see eight coaches twice an hour, at the moment it sees four coaches once an hour, totally inadequate now that the schools are back, the train after mine would have been even busier picking up an enormous amount of children at Tonbridge.

It’s certainly dubious running everything as 4-car. Whilst there may well be times of day when demand is very low, this doesn’t cater for times when it’s higher.

Perhaps the DFT could “Look them in the eye and tell them you did everything you could to allow people to spread out on trains”.

 

[yorksrob]

It is pretty shocking running around crowded 4 carriage trains when you have the resources for twelve.

Mind you, I remember such things happenning on the South Eastern and Central in the 1990's, so t'was ever thus !

 

[Timmyd]

I think you'd still need regular Victoria trains because they provide a useful link with Balham and Battersea. I was thinking 4tph to Victoria and 4tph Thameslink. Although, I can't see that working at Tulse Hill.

You could I suppose, route everything to Victoria and have an interchange station where the Victoria and Dulwich lines cross over at Norwood.

It's a nice fantasy idea, you can actually see the Tulse Hill platforms from the Victoria line but the practicalities would make it a non-starter

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It's a nice fantasy idea, you can actually see the Tulse Hill platforms from the Victoria line but the practicalities would make it a non-starter

I actually read once that it was a serious NSE proposal that was scuppered by privatisation.

 

[AY1975]

We got the CEP's, but arguably the BEP's didn't last long on the Eastern !

Yes indeed, the South Eastern Division did away with buffet cars in about 1980/81, whereas they lasted on the Central Division until just after privatisation and on the South Western Division well into the privatised era.

I think that was partly because of the age of the BEPs compared to the BIGs and REPs and partly because passenger loadings on South Eastern Division main line services were that much lower and by the 1980s most passengers on the Kent Coast routes tended to be travelling intermediately rather than end-to-end.

See the thread on why the SED got rid of buffet cars much earlier than the CD at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-before-the-central-division-did-so.208322/

 

[yorksrob]

Yes indeed, the South Eastern Division did away with buffet cars in about 1980/81, whereas they lasted on the Central Division until just after privatisation and on the South Western Division well into the privatised era.

I think that was partly because of the age of the BEPs compared to the BIGs and REPs and partly because passenger loadings on South Eastern Division main line services were that much lower and by the 1980s most passengers on the Kent Coast routes tended to be travelling intermediately rather than end-to-end.

See the thread on why the SED got rid of buffet cars much earlier than the CD at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-before-the-central-division-did-so.208322/

At least we got some trollies to compensate !