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Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

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Journeyman

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #27 originally in this thread.

Metro headline this morning condemns 40-year-old trains, and the boss of ScotRail got a roasting from pissed off punters at the SNP conference.
 
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mde

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Metro headline this morning condemns 40-year-old trains, and the boss of ScotRail got a roasting from pissed off punters at the SNP conference.
Unsurprisingly, the Scottish Daily Express is reported by the BBC to have a similar headline… the fact is, he's probably right.

Most people just want something that is comfortable and works. You don't go and replace your house every few years because it's old - you upgrade and replace parts (e.g. furnishings, paintwork and so on)… this isn't necessarily any different.
 

Rail Blues

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Unsurprisingly, the Scottish Daily Express is reported by the BBC to have a similar headline… the fact is, he's probably right.

Most people just want something that is comfortable and works. You don't go and replace your house every few years because it's old - you upgrade and replace parts (e.g. furnishings, paintwork and so on)… this isn't necessarily any different.


Your argument might carry slightly more weight, if they actually y'know... worked and were comfortable. Refurbishment is way behind schedule and we will be rolling round in unrefurbished slam door stock for the foreseeable. Nor are the MK3's particularly comfortable or pleasant places to be and that has been the case for at least a decade.

That is before we get to the fact your analogy is flawed as the role and life expectancy, structure and typical materials of a home is different to rolling stock are wholly different.

The whole thing makes Scotrail look a laughing stock.
 

jingsmonty

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Your argument might carry slightly more weight, if they actually y'know... worked and were comfortable. Refurbishment is way behind schedule and we will be rolling round in unrefurbished slam door stock for the foreseeable. Nor are the MK3's particularly comfortable or pleasant places to be and that has been the case for at least a decade.

That is before we get to the fact your analogy is flawed as the role and life expectancy, structure and typical materials of a home is different to rolling stock are wholly different.

The whole thing makes Scotrail look a laughing stock.

In my opinion, the Mk3 coach is a fantastic way to travel - nothing that's been built since compares. Agreed that it's less than ideal that most of the coaches will be temporarily slam doors & minus CET tanks, but that's mainly Wabtec's fault.

The media hacks can write whatever lazy, cheap headlines about '40 year old trains' they like, but those of us who will actually travel on & work these trains know better.

Personally, I'd rather travel in an HST/Mk3 combo, as opposed to a modern DMU...this argument has already been done to death, so can we just accept that HST is here to stay for now.

Personally, I think the public will far prefer them to the current rolling stock..
 

Journeyman

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The media hacks can write whatever lazy, cheap headlines about '40 year old trains' they like, but those of us who will actually travel on & work these trains know better.

Personally, I'd rather travel in an HST/Mk3 combo, as opposed to a modern DMU...this argument has already been done to death, so can we just accept that HST is here to stay for now.

There's nothing lazy and cheap about it! They ARE 40 years old! They have serious corrosion issues, the refurb has gone badly wrong, they squeak, clatter and bounce all over the place, and THEY'RE NOT BLOODY HERE YET. Add to that, the fleet they're coming from have an MTIN of only 5000.

The whole thing is a farce.
 

Northhighland

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Your argument might carry slightly more weight, if they actually y'know... worked and were comfortable. Refurbishment is way behind schedule and we will be rolling round in unrefurbished slam door stock for the foreseeable. Nor are the MK3's particularly comfortable or pleasant places to be and that has been the case for at least a decade.

That is before we get to the fact your analogy is flawed as the role and life expectancy, structure and typical materials of a home is different to rolling stock are wholly different.

The whole thing makes Scotrail look a laughing stock.

This debate is very boring. As a regular HML traveller standing on a rammed 170 with the engine drone the rattle from the roof panels, luggage in corridors bikes overflowing from cycle racks an HST is a massive upgrade. Just having a seat will be great.

Slam door of refurbed they will be appreciated by travellers. So just leave us to enjoy our classic trains.
 

Gadget88

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Metro headline this morning condemns 40-year-old trains, and the boss of ScotRail got a roasting from pissed off punters at the SNP conference.
I’m with the newspapers on this one it’s a disgrace they are using 40 year old carriages. The existing ones on the East coast line are already tired and old and being replaced. The 170’s are about 20 years newer was never any need. I believe the goverment made the choice so I wouldn’t go as far as blame ScotRail. If the current fleet is good enough to hike it up to Aberdeen and Inverness why fix what isn’t broken?

The new trains have been a failure too.
 

Gadget88

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There's nothing lazy and cheap about it! They ARE 40 years old! They have serious corrosion issues, the refurb has gone badly wrong, they squeak, clatter and bounce all over the place, and THEY'RE NOT BLOODY HERE YET. Add to that, the fleet they're coming from have an MTIN of only 5000.

The whole thing is a farce.

Sounds like the current fleet on the east coast line they creek and rattle about but luckily they are getting new trains.
 

snookertam

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I’m with the newspapers on this one it’s a disgrace they are using 40 year old carriages. The existing ones on the East coast line are already tired and old and being replaced. The 170’s are about 20 years newer was never any need. I believe the goverment made the choice so I wouldn’t go as far as blame ScotRail. If the current fleet is good enough to hike it up to Aberdeen and Inverness why fix what isn’t broken?

The new trains have been a failure too.

Well the government made the choice in that they selected the bid from Abellio. First Group I believe wanted to retain Cl170s and run them as 6 cars on the long distance routes. The way things are going Abellio might have to consider that plan anyway. Agree with the poster above, would be amazed if abellio got extended as franchise holder.
 

Gadget88

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Well the government made the choice in that they selected the bid from Abellio. First Group I believe wanted to retain Cl170s and run them as 6 cars on the long distance routes. The way things are going Abellio might have to consider that plan anyway. Agree with the poster above, would be amazed if abellio got extended as franchise holder.
Yes they have been pretty poor people never liked First but they did a good job and it kept profits in UK not abroad.

I’ve not been following this topic much what appears to be the issue with the HST’s? Are they not in good condition?
 

jingsmonty

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There's nothing lazy and cheap about it! They ARE 40 years old! They have serious corrosion issues, the refurb has gone badly wrong, they squeak, clatter and bounce all over the place, and THEY'RE NOT BLOODY HERE YET. Add to that, the fleet they're coming from have an MTIN of only 5000.

The whole thing is a farce.

This debate is very boring. As a regular HML traveller standing on a rammed 170 with the engine drone the rattle from the roof panels, luggage in corridors bikes overflowing from cycle racks an HST is a massive upgrade. Just having a seat will be great.

Slam door of refurbed they will be appreciated by travellers. So just leave us to enjoy our classic trains.

Journeyman, I'll just quote Northhighland's response. It's spot on.
 

mde

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Yes they have been pretty poor people never liked First but they did a good job and it kept profits in UK not abroad.
Profits? Abellio ScotRail hasn't posted a profit or returned monies to its shareholder - quite the opposite, they are loss making and have money coming in from other Abellio group subsidiaries.

It's certainly possible that could change in the future, mind you, but, in the mid term? Highly doubtful, unless they find the so-called 'magic money tree'…
 

jingsmonty

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What would you have a comfortable HST with more capacity or hemmed in on a 170?
No contest. It's a comfy, quiet & smooth running (also not to mention much better performance, when sandwiched between 2 HST power cars) Mk 3 for me. Sure any regular HML passenger would agree.
 

jingsmonty

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What would you have a comfortable HST with more capacity or hemmed in on a 170?

The 170s are woeful on the HML - no luggage space, inadequate cycle space, CET tanks that are too small, Cr*p air conditioning, doors in the wrong place & last (but definetly not least) dreadfully inadequate performance, especially on rising gradients. Apart from that, they're ok.
 

Chrism20

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This debate is very boring.

It's more repetitive than boring I think.

Day after day you all just keep saying the same thing to each other whether it be they will be a massive step change, they are forty years old, they don't have underfloor engines and so on and nothing any of you say is going to change the others minds.

It's quite comical to watch but it's like watching a hamster on a wheel to be honest. There's 4000 posts in this thread and probably 2000 of them are arguing back and forth about underfloor engines and forty year old carriages.

I don't know about anyone else but I just want to see them running refurbished or not.
 

jingsmonty

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It's more repetitive than boring I think.

Day after day you all just keep saying the same thing to each other whether it be they will be a massive step change, they are forty years old, they don't have underfloor engines and so on and nothing any of you say is going to change the others minds.

It's quite comical to watch but it's like watching a hamster on a wheel to be honest. There's 4000 posts in this thread and probably 2000 of them are arguing back and forth about underfloor engines and forty year old carriages.

I don't know about anyone else but I just want to see them running refurbished or not.

Couldn't agree with you more. Any regular traveller on the HML will realise what an upgrade HST will be (even unrefurbished), both in terms of passenger service & train performance (trust me, a 4 car HST just eats the HML gradients with almost laughable ease).
 

deltic08

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I’m with the newspapers on this one it’s a disgrace they are using 40 year old carriages. The existing ones on the East coast line are already tired and old and being replaced. The 170’s are about 20 years newer was never any need. I believe the goverment made the choice so I wouldn’t go as far as blame ScotRail. If the current fleet is good enough to hike it up to Aberdeen and Inverness why fix what isn’t broken?

The new trains have been a failure too.
Be happy with what you are getting. At least you haven't had Pacers for the last 36 years. In the North of England, we are replacing 35 year old trains with your 30 year old cast offs but they are better trains than we have. Refurbished HSTs will be better trains than you have.
 

Stoney1979

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This is getting very tiresome.

This thread is supposed to be about the intro of the HSTs, not whether the decision to bring them in was a good one (or not). Those who wish to debate the franchise decision made several years ago and/or how awful it is to sit in a Mk3 should, perhaps, set up a new thread where they can all complain and agree with each other about how terrible the HSTs are.

I don't think anyone, even the most keen HST enthusiasts here, are suggesting they're a silver bullet that will solve everything. However, we ARE interested in what improvement will (hopefully...) come to the current services, and about how, when, and where they will be coming into service.

In the meantime it's happening, for better or worse. Can we move on, please?
 

Stoney1979

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Going back to a point made earlier; how can we objectively measure the success, or otherwise, of the HSTs?

So far the suggestions have been to look at:
- more/less bums on seats over a calendar year
- printed/broadcast media approval, or otherwise
- social media approval, or otherwise
- anecdotal evidence from friends, family and colleagues who, perhaps, aren't all particularly train-savvy and just want a reserved seat on a reasonably comfortable train that is on time, ideally with a café/trolley.
 

fgwrich

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It's more repetitive than boring I think.

Day after day you all just keep saying the same thing to each other whether it be they will be a massive step change, they are forty years old, they don't have underfloor engines and so on and nothing any of you say is going to change the others minds.

It's quite comical to watch but it's like watching a hamster on a wheel to be honest. There's 4000 posts in this thread and probably 2000 of them are arguing back and forth about underfloor engines and forty year old carriages.

I don't know about anyone else but I just want to see them running refurbished or not.

The 170s are woeful on the HML - no luggage space, inadequate cycle space, CET tanks that are too small, Cr*p air conditioning, doors in the wrong place & last (but definetly not least) dreadfully inadequate performance, especially on rising gradients. Apart from that, they're ok.

Indeed, I fully agree with you both on both accounts. The same comments, are becoming more than tiresome now. I for one am very much looking forward to them and the improvements that they will bring. Having seen a copy of the food menu for tomorrow and the future catering, these will be a considerable step up from a trolley provided on the current 170s. In fact I find it rather ironic that the catering provision in the west is decreasing, while the catering on ScotRail is about to get a considerable boost with the Mini Buffets on these sets. And First Class passengers will certainly have something to be very pleased with as well. I know both passengers and staff are looking forward to the introduction of the HSTs on the Highland Mainline as well from a few conversation I ended up having while heading up to and from Inverness this summer. I think we all agreed on, with luggage on the seats, seat reservations all over the place and passengers having to stand from Kingussie to Stirling (where I left) that the 170s have served their time well but are now inadequate on such key routes. And it's not jus this summer too, last summer when my Caley Sleeper service was cancelled at Perth, we were told that ScotRail could not accommodate us on the following service because it was a full and standing 170.

The 170s did well in their early days, but the time has come to replace them and as quickly as possible. And I can understand why they must frustrate you and your fellow drivers jingsmonty, the unit I had out of Inverness on the return did not obviously like the gradients of Schlod very well, radiators on full, losing a fair amount of time as we went - I've even had 153s working over the Devon banks run faster.

I too want to see them running out and about, and while the delays and having to use unrefurbished (but not inadequate at all!) stock are not what ScotRail or anyone really wanted to see, I still believe that the end results will be very much worth it. A little bit of pain for a very big gain!
 

jingsmonty

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Indeed, I fully agree with you both on both accounts. The same comments, are becoming more than tiresome now. I for one am very much looking forward to them and the improvements that they will bring. Having seen a copy of the food menu for tomorrow and the future catering, these will be a considerable step up from a trolley provided on the current 170s. In fact I find it rather ironic that the catering provision in the west is decreasing, while the catering on ScotRail is about to get a considerable boost with the Mini Buffets on these sets. And First Class passengers will certainly have something to be very pleased with as well. I know both passengers and staff are looking forward to the introduction of the HSTs on the Highland Mainline as well from a few conversation I ended up having while heading up to and from Inverness this summer. I think we all agreed on, with luggage on the seats, seat reservations all over the place and passengers having to stand from Kingussie to Stirling (where I left) that the 170s have served their time well but are now inadequate on such key routes. And it's not jus this summer too, last summer when my Caley Sleeper service was cancelled at Perth, we were told that ScotRail could not accommodate us on the following service because it was a full and standing 170.

The 170s did well in their early days, but the time has come to replace them and as quickly as possible. And I can understand why they must frustrate you and your fellow drivers jingsmonty, the unit I had out of Inverness on the return did not obviously like the gradients of Schlod very well, radiators on full, losing a fair amount of time as we went - I've even had 153s working over the Devon banks run faster.

I too want to see them running out and about, and while the delays and having to use unrefurbished (but not inadequate at all!) stock are not what ScotRail or anyone really wanted to see, I still believe that the end results will be very much worth it. A little bit of pain for a very big gain!

Definetly agree with all you've said - I'll give you an example of the performance difference. Leaving Inverness in a 170, we would be on full power until after the loop at Moy, with a cllimb up to Culloden at about 55mph max (a 158 will struggle to do 50mph). When driving the HST training train, you have to ease back on the power climbing up to Culloden at 80mph (line speed) - same again on the other side of Culloden Viaduct, a 170/158 will struggle to do more than 55mph - the HST will cruise up at the line speed of 75mph, again, having to ease back on the power. It's a train that you really have to 'drive', if you know what I mean - it demands to be treated with respect by the drivers. The performance makes me smile, I do so enjoy driving it, rather than a 170 - I think the passengers will feel the same about travelling on it too!

Quite apart from the big upgrade for passengers, the performance is game changing...

Maybe someone SHOULD start an 'Anti-HST' thread. I won't be posting on it though.
 

Journeyman

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Journeyman, I'll just quote Northhighland's response. It's spot on.

I still disagree. I've had plenty of journeys up and down the HML in 170s and I've never had a problem with them. My last long-distance HST journey was bloody awful.
 

Rail Blues

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No contest. It's a comfy, quiet & smooth running (also not to mention much better performance, when sandwiched between 2 HST power cars) Mk 3 for me. Sure any regular HML passenger would agree.

That's odd because those smooth running MK3s are thin on the ground in both the East Coast and GWR fleets, these days their ride is well below average and doesn't compare with modern stock.

We should leave the whole 'is HST the right choice' argument behind..it's beyond tedious now. Let others moan about phantom creaks & groans that the travelling public probably don't even notice!

If you think the creaks and groans are phantom, I'd get your ears syringed pronto.

Isn't funny that after what seems like ages of the HST fan boys waxing lyrical about how wonderful their beloved units are and how enraptured the travelling public would be, that now it is becoming clear that this is a bad idea being atrociously executed and the public aren't rolling out the banners, that the conversation about their suitability has suddenly got 'boring'. Strange that.
 

Journeyman

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That's odd because those smooth running MK3s are thin on the ground in both the East Coast and GWR fleets, these days their ride is well below average and doesn't compare with modern stock.



If you think the creaks and groans are phantom, I'd get your ears syringed pronto.

Isn't funny that after what seems like ages of the HST fan boys waxing lyrical about how wonderful their beloved units are and how enraptured the travelling public would be, that now it is becoming clear that this is a bad idea being atrociously executed and the public aren't rolling out the banners, that the conversation about their suitability has suddenly got 'boring'. Strange that.

Yup - they're now extremely late, so all the arguments about whether they're better than 170s are a bit irrelevant - at least the 170s are actually here. Agreed, the creaks and squeaks on HSTs are really, really bad, because they're at an extremely unpleasant pitch and are random in nature. 170 engine noise is absolutely fine and at a pitch and level I, and most other, people can tune out easily.

The absolute roasting Hynes got at the SNP conference is further proof this was a very bad idea, and really unpopular with punters, although I do feel a bit sorry for him - he was forced to defend something he had no choice about, it was decided several years ago by whatever 'spotter put Abellio's rolling stock strategy together.
 

47271

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The chat on this thread is exactly as repetitive as it is in the GWR 800 area.

For me it all hinges on reliability in operation, before or after the refurbs. If the HSTs are at least as good as the 170s then it'll only be the obsessives who'll have something to talk about. If they break down all the time the project will have been a mistake and we'll never hear the end of it.

Until we know, there's not a lot more to be said.
 

fgwrich

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That's odd because those smooth running MK3s are thin on the ground in both the East Coast and GWR fleets, these days their ride is well below average and doesn't compare with modern stock.



If you think the creaks and groans are phantom, I'd get your ears syringed pronto.

Isn't funny that after what seems like ages of the HST fan boys waxing lyrical about how wonderful their beloved units are and how enraptured the travelling public would be, that now it is becoming clear that this is a bad idea being atrociously executed and the public aren't rolling out the banners, that the conversation about their suitability has suddenly got 'boring'. Strange that.

And if you choose to travel in the vestibule where the creaks and groans from the corridor connection is, then that is your problem. I presume you also don't travel around on that much new stock either then, as the ride quality of some of them are just as "below average" either - indeed it took a while to sort out issues with the 395s, The Desiro's still ride harshly (I wouldn't recommend yourself travelling on a SWR Desiro on the up fast through Worting junction & Basingstoke if you think the HST are that bad!) while the 220s still rattle over rough track with the Flexx Eco underneath. The public aren't "rolling out the banners" yet because they have not had a chance to travel on them yet, nor has anyone else but staff in training. I don't see how you can judge how the public feel about them when they haven't had a chance to travel on them yet - the only public complaints I have seen so far is that they are not yet in service and providing the extra capacity that is desperately needed.

Call me what you want, but not only do I think that it is far too early to make a final judgement on a project that is by no means finished yet. Yes we know that the project is running behind schedule, the reasons for that are already well published and criticised all over this forum and others. We've already been told that the performance is far better than the current stock by those who will be working the stock, While the only comments about their suitability being "boring" is the repetitive comments about how the project is run by train spotters, a massive fail, 40 year old trains, new trains would be better etc...
 

David M

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People never liked First but they did a good job and it kept profits in UK not abroad.
Xenophobia alert.
You do know the franchise has made a loss for the last 2 years?
But, hey, why let a fact get in the way of insular beliefs.
 
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