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Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

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Journeyman

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Inverness handles a full HST every day so does Waverley. Only problem would be at GLQ.

That's a fairly major problem! Are you proposing multiple lengths of HST? How is that particularly easy or practical? You'd have to operate them on captive diagrams.

As to your point about luggage and cycles regularly see space at rear of HST power cars getting used for this purpose.

ScotRail aren't using the power car van space, as has been stated on here many times.
 
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The ScotRail services don't have 125mph running, they don't require 125mph trains, there was no need for HSTs (but they've got nice big engines and do something called "thrash" so enthusiast love them).
I think you've rather lost the debate when you resort to comments like that.

In any case, the MTUs in HST power cars are basically inaudible in the train. There's now only one HST power car that really produces thrash...
 

Highland37

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There's nothing wrong with 170s that a decent refurb, and reforming into longer sets, couldn't fix. All the other options available are prefectly decent trains too.

I beg to differ but recognise your amorous to the 170.

If you travel in most other countries, this year I have been in France, Switzerland, Germany and Norway, you recognise that the 170 is an awful train for travelling Glasgow to Inverness.
 

Highlandspring

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ScotRail aren't using the power car van space, as has been stated on here many times.
At the moment they’re not but when the full fleet is in service the powercar vans will be available to convey up to 3 bikes (in each) for end-to-end journeys. The bike racks are already fitted.
 

Journeyman

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I beg to differ but recognise your amorous to the 170.

If you travel in most other countries, this year I have been in France, Switzerland, Germany and Norway, you recognise that the 170 is an awful train for travelling Glasgow to Inverness.

Oh, FFS. I'm not some sort of 170 fanboy, I have no particularly strong feelings towards them at all. They're just reasonably decent trains that happen to be here. The train that shows up is better than the one that doesn't.
 

Paul Kerr

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Oh, FFS. I'm not some sort of 170 fanboy, I have no particularly strong feelings towards them at all. They're just reasonably decent trains that happen to be here. The train that shows up is better than the one that doesn't.

Yes and Class 142's and 143's are coming off lease from Northern Rail, and we have plenty of class 156's and 158's are here as well. Would we use them just because they happen to be here or available? It's not really a sound argument. You have not answered the main points which is are 1) with their layout the Class 170's are fundamentally unsuited to long distance travel and 2) that they are hopelessly underpowered, particularly for the HML. Your argument that varying lengths of a Class 170 would be more flexible than an HST does not wash either as both are fixed formation sets. The only saving grace is that it would use less platform space which I do not see as being a big issue on the ScotRail network.

I am not an HST fanboy but it's patently obvious that an HST is better than a Class 170, refurbished or not.
 

Paul Kerr

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Clue: the first customer for the Class 170 wasn't a commuter operator. It was in fact Midland Mainline.

The units are not commuter units. They are regional express units. Which is the kind of service Inter7City really is.

The anti-170-style-units argument is really just door position prejudice. As long as they are long enough, what's the problem?

Fair enough, it's a regional express unit. But let's call it for what it is- it's based on a commuter design with doors in the middle section of the carriage. That's my point. They're fine for short journeys of an hour or less but it really does appear an attempt at a "one size fits all" design which really does not work for longer journeys of 2 to 3 hours.

The argument is merely door position prejudice either. They are cramped, underpowered and have way too little luggage space. By the time you resolve those issues you would have to pretty much gut them down to the bare coach body and rebuild the prime mover system and interior from scratch.
 

Bikeman78

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I think it's fair to say that ScotRail are essentially screwed, if not now then beyond December 2019, unless Wabtec miraculously recover. While there are a number of new rolling stock options that could work, there's a lot of people ahead of them in the queue, and slam-door HSTs are not compliant with a whole slew of modern standards.
I think several TOCs will be screwed in 2020 unless the deadline is moved, which I'm 99% sure it will be.

There are no plans to modify the EMT HSTs. I doubt they can run eveything without them, indeed they've just taken on three more.

None of the 70 odd 153s are compliant, are they all going next year?

None of the 36 150s in Wales are done, so that means three per month need to be done, alongside the 158s which are around a quarter of the way through.

Over on Greater Anglia 24 317s are having PRM mods and 30 321s have been done. That leaves over 90 317/321 to replace (I think the exact think is 97 but happy to be corrected), and the 720s aren't expected to enter service until autumn 2019. Good luck with that!
 

Journeyman

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1) with their layout the Class 170's are fundamentally unsuited to long distance travel

Disagree. I've done plenty of trips to Inverness on 170s and there's nothing fundamentally unsuitable about them.

I am not an HST fanboy but it's patently obvious that an HST is better than a Class 170, refurbished or not.

Is it? Where are they, then? The HST is fundamentally unsuitable because it's old and knackered. If they were so great, why haven't they all been finished, and why aren't they in service? This is my point - they were an unsuitable choice because they're unreliable, riddled with corrosion and clearly not easy to convert, so ScotRail have made a massive blunder in choosing them.

I won't deny the finished product is smart, but fat lot of good it is if we only ever get one of them...where are the other 26?
 

trebor79

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Does every vehicle in the train need to comply? Could they out one or two refurbished coaches in each set and gradually increase that ratio as more vehicles are converted?
 

GrimShady

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Class 170's are fundamentally unsuited to long distance travel just the same as 156's are on WHL journeys. While I didn't mind them on the E&G, Inverness/Aberdeen services from the central belt needs a superior product!
 

Journeyman

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Does every vehicle in the train need to comply? Could they out one or two refurbished coaches in each set and gradually increase that ratio as more vehicles are converted?

No. The door control system isn't compatible with the rather basic BR central locking on the unrefurbished vehicles.
 

Bikeman78

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Southern had to change the couplings to match the 171s, which have Dellners. Sticking an additional vehicle into an existing set takes minutes.

Changing couplings (all eight of them) doesn't take a year. The fist six of the original Southern units had their couplings changed, they might even have been 170s rather than 171s for a while, I can't remember. Later on 170392 became 171730, I don't think that took very long.
 

GrimShady

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Changing couplings (all eight of them) doesn't take a year. The fist six of the original Southern units had their couplings changed, they might even have been 170s rather than 171s for a while, I can't remember. Later on 170392 became 171730, I don't think that took very long.

Didn't they claim it was due to large amounts of corrosion work required?
 
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Does every vehicle in the train need to comply? Could they out one or two refurbished coaches in each set and gradually increase that ratio as more vehicles are converted?

No. The door control system isn't compatible with the rather basic BR central locking on the unrefurbished vehicles.

BR really did miss a trick back then when the MK1, 2 and 3 derived stock were procured. If they had gone for the UIC standard design with auto closers -(like France and just about every other continental european country), then this would be possible and indeed maybe not even necessary to carry out this work now.
SNCF for example operate mixed door type stock formations in their Corail trains all the time which can all be controlled by a UIC key. Same standard practice of a common door control on UIC stock on DB, NMBS, SBB etc and just about every other administration on the continent...

Why did the UK and Ireland not follow the international trend I wonder? This question is worthy of a thread in itself.
 
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Geoff DC

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BR really did miss a trick back then when the MK1, 2 and 3 derived stock were procured. If they had gone for the UIC standard design with auto closers -(like France and just about every other continental european country), then this would be possible and indeed maybe not even necessary to carry out this work now.
SNCF for example operate mixed door type stock formations in their Corail trains all the time which can all be controlled by a UIC key. Same standard practice of a common door control on UIC stock on DB, NMBS, SBB etc and just about every other administration on the continent...

Why did the UK and Ireland not follow the international trend I wonder? This question is wothy of a thread in itself.

Same reason as the same people fought for Brexit Maybe?
 
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Same reason as the same people fought for Brexit Maybe?

Funny you say that, I'm sure I heard m. Juncker say saying similar about the English "not identifying with the wider European community", maybe he is correct as Scotland and Ireland seem to be largely "pro-euro"..
But this is for another thread...
 

Paul Kerr

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Disagree. I've done plenty of trips to Inverness on 170s and there's nothing fundamentally unsuitable about them.



Is it? Where are they, then? The HST is fundamentally unsuitable because it's old and knackered. If they were so great, why haven't they all been finished, and why aren't they in service? This is my point - they were an unsuitable choice because they're unreliable, riddled with corrosion and clearly not easy to convert, so ScotRail have made a massive blunder in choosing them.

I won't deny the finished product is smart, but fat lot of good it is if we only ever get one of them...where are the other 26?

Your comment that you have done plenty of trips to Inverness on a 170 without issues is interesting. At what time of day? How long ago? Were you in 1st class or standard class? Every trip I have done on a Class 170 has seen standard class absolutely ram packed, either out of Inverness or Glasgow. In more recent times from my last trip (2 years ago) judging from posts from other users on here, you can still be standing north of Perth. How is that satisfactory? As drivers of these units have also pointed out, you also barely reach 50-55mph in one cresting Druimuachdar or Slochd with the throttle fully open. Based on those 2 issues alone I fundamentally disagree with your statement that "there is nothing fundamentally wrong with them". By the time I come back to Scotland on my next visit I hope they have been consigned to the history books on the HML. I grant you that they are a good solid design for lines like the Borders or maybe short semi-fast services between Edinburgh to Perth/Dundee but for HML services? To rework a 170 to be suitable you would have to strip it down to the bare bodyshell and totally refit it both internally and mechanically to match even a non refurbished HST.

As to why the HSTs have not been finished, Wabtec's manpower problems have been well documented on this forum. Corrosion is a factor, I agree, but there are a lot more moving parts to this. Also you are taking what I am saying slightly out of context. I said that an unrefurbished product is still an improvement on a 3 car 170 because it has more space and is designed for proper long haul service. So really where the other 25 sets are at this point is quite frankly irrelevant. Slam door trains are being introduced in December if I have understood correctly. Having the slam door stock is not at all ideal; I do agree with you on that- but it's still a step up on what passengers have to put up with now.
 

Bletchleyite

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The argument is merely door position prejudice either. They are cramped, underpowered and have way too little luggage space. By the time you resolve those issues you would have to pretty much gut them down to the bare coach body and rebuild the prime mover system and interior from scratch.

No, you wouldn't. You'd have to take out say 2 rows of seats and replace with a large luggage rack, and replace the engine with a larger one or some other means of improving acceleration like a 6 speed mechanical gearbox of the kind fitted to the superior evolution of them, the Class 172.
 

deltic08

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It seems electrification to Inverness is more urgent than anywhere else so needs authorising now as a follow on with six-car 802s ordering now and leaving Aberdeens to HSTs and 170s. Their diesel engines can be used for the gaps while Perth is remodelled and as electrification progresses along the HML to Inverness.

Freight and Caledonian sleepers can also become electrically hauled.
 

Paul Kerr

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No, you wouldn't. You'd have to take out say 2 rows of seats and replace with a large luggage rack, and replace the engine with a larger one or some other means of improving acceleration like a 6 speed mechanical gearbox of the kind fitted to the superior evolution of them, the Class 172.

Sorry don't agree with your first point. You'd need to take out a lot more than 2 rows of seats. The tapered profile of the carriages makes the existing overhead racks way too small. Keep in mind that on longer distance services you have considerably more passengers with luggage. I'd say you'd need to take out multiple seat rows so you're then potentially then looking at needing to add an extra carriage to make up for the seats you've lost. Also moving luggage racks around doesn't fix the fundamental issue of the door layout on the bodyshell essentially being designed as a high density commuter unit. I do not argue they are a good solid design for a short haul journey but without wishing to disparage accountants they feel like an accountant-driven compromise rather than a train you would specifically design for a relatively long haul journey. After all, they were churned out in volume in Scotland as a one size fits all design and they are used uniformly across Fife/Borders commuter and intercity services to the north. Having a large number of your trains as the same design makes maintenance easier and makes it cheaper as you are "buying in bulk", but it doesn't mean that it's the right choice for the passengers who seem to be a secondary concern when modern trains are procured in this day and age.

On the engine... that's an expensive job (procuring a large number of small engines and performing the refit). Also how can you be sure that the specified engine fits in the compartment where the older smaller unit has been taken out without needing to adapt the vehicle? As we have seen ad nauseam on this forum, conversion jobs are not as straightforward and inevitably there are issues. A higher output engine under the floor will potentially also increase noise and vibration (driving more damping to try and reduce noise), as well as adding stress on other components on the vehicle. I'm not saying it's impossible but it's not necessarily straightforward. Also on the gearbox, if you take out the 4/5 speed gearbox on a car with a small engine (say 1.0L) and replace it with a 6 speed it's hardly going to make a difference in acceleration or performance. The issue is the engine does not have enough horsepower or torque to move the mass of the vehicle quickly enough. I can't see how changing a gearbox is going to change that. Better acceleration isn't going to help you on the long climbs up to Slochd or Druimuachdar either as you will still tap out at around 55mph. You need a more powerful power unit to get a step change in performance; better acceleration is not really going to help much on limited stop services.
 

scotraildriver

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Higher output engines have already been tried on the 170s and it didn't work. 170431/432 we're fitted with upgraded MTU engines a number of years ago. They were very noisy and there were multiple other issues like overheating gearboxes and a fire. They were quick though.
 

Northhighland

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It seems electrification to Inverness is more urgent than anywhere else so needs authorising now as a follow on with six-car 802s ordering now and leaving Aberdeens to HSTs and 170s. Their diesel engines can be used for the gaps while Perth is remodelled and as electrification progresses along the HML to Inverness.

Freight and Caledonian sleepers can also become electrically hauled.

Highly unlikely to ever happen. There would be protest about the visual and environmental impact in one of Scotland’s most beautiful areas. Look at the hassle with Beauly to Denny interconnectir.

Also cost.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sorry don't agree with your first point. You'd need to take out a lot more than 2 rows of seats. The tapered profile of the carriages makes the existing overhead racks way too small.

It's not the profile, it's bad design. The racks in First Class are plenty large enough; that type could be fitted throughout.

Also moving luggage racks around doesn't fix the fundamental issue of the door layout on the bodyshell essentially being designed as a high density commuter unit.

Door position prejudice makes it into the thread again. You remember Mk1s and early Mk2s had end doors and a centre door?

Also on the gearbox, if you take out the 4/5 speed gearbox on a car with a small engine (say 1.0L) and replace it with a 6 speed it's hardly going to make a difference in acceleration or performance. The issue is the engine does not have enough horsepower or torque to move the mass of the vehicle quickly enough. I can't see how changing a gearbox is going to change that.

As built they have hydraulic transmissions with a lock-up facility (and may have two gears in lock-up, I forget which units do and which don't). The problem with this is that they waste a load of power on heat and noise in the transmission fluid. If that's difficult to understand, consider the idea of driving your car by starting off in third slipping the clutch - you won't start off quickly because you're just wasting energy heating up the clutch plates.

The Class 172 has a more traditional mechanical gearbox which uses a gear appropriate to starting off, and can therefore accelerate much more quickly from a standing start as it doesn't waste energy.

Consider, similarly, why cars don't tend to offer a hydraulic-coupled automatic gearbox on the smallest engine option...
 

Highland37

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Absolute bollocks. Firstly they are too small. Not enough seats. If you join two together you can’t get from one to the other. The doors are in the wrong place everyone gets cold at every station in the winter.

Not enough luggage capacity for long distance travel
Not enough cycle capacity for route
Noisy.

Essentially they have been made to work but simply not suitable for long distance travel. You can try and gloss over these failings but they are real and it does your argument no good to ignore its flaws.

In snow a 170 is not much good. A loco hauled train would be better. Not much controversial in that.


Exactly. The sheer pishness of a 170 is rammed home when you see a 850cc ancient Fiat Panda over taking you on the climb to Drumochter.
 

Bletchleyite

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Exactly. The sheer pishness of a 170 is rammed home when you see a 850cc ancient Fiat Panda over taking you on the climb to Drumochter.

Perhaps if you consider them that "pish" you might send them all to Northern a bit quicker where they will be appreciated. Would some Pacers do in exchange?

They really are not bad units. When I first rode on a new one in 1998ish I thought they were poor quality and would fall to bits, but they demonstrably haven't. The Scottish ones have comfortable seats at a good spacing and an excellent window view. The only problems are that the luggage racks are too small and that they're too short. I'm sure the rack could be replaced (it's common to do this at refurbs) and them being too short just requires more of them, really.

TBH, when attempting to board an overcrowded Pendolino or Voyager with a big bag I find myself wishing for doors at thirds.
 

jimm

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Highly unlikely to ever happen. There would be protest about the visual and environmental impact in one of Scotland’s most beautiful areas. Look at the hassle with Beauly to Denny interconnectir.

Also cost.

While I would agree Highland Main Line electrification is unlikely to be happening in a hurry, I'm not sure how you can equate the visual impact on the landscape of what can be seen in the BBC video below, or dual carriageway sections of the A9 come to that, with putting up steelwork for 25kv overhead on a largely single track railway, especially if Transport Scotland specified the use of uprights painted some shade of green.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35146301
http://www.johnpaulconstruction.co....ubenmore-dual-carriageway-northern-extension/
 

RLBH

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Door position prejudice makes it into the thread again. You remember Mk1s and early Mk2s had end doors and a centre door?
Doors at thirds are great for passenger flow, but have the unfortunate effect of putting the toilets in the saloon. They need vestibule doors for long distance work, but so do end-door designs; the only difference being that with end doors you only need two, the Mark 1/2 design needs four, and doors at thirds needs six.

My personal view is that the XP64 door and vestibule arrangement was ideal, it's just a shame it never made it into production.

As far as HML electrification goes, it's the obvious long-term solution and the line is well suited to it. Sooner or later the advantages will be stacked up to the point that the aesthetic concerns are overridden. A few support pylons really aren't that much of an issue anyway IMHO.
 
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