Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with a centre door is that the gap can be very wide on curved platforms.

 

[Doomotron]

Higher output engines have already been tried on the 170s and it didn't work. 170431/432 we're fitted with upgraded MTU engines a number of years ago. They were very noisy and there were multiple other issues like overheating gearboxes and a fire. They were quick though.

Were they removed?

 

[Journeyman]

Your comment that you have done plenty of trips to Inverness on a 170 without issues is interesting. At what time of day? How long ago? Were you in 1st class or standard class?

About once a month, from 2015 to 2017, at all times of day, at all times of the year, in both Standard and First, on mainly ScotRail but also occasional VTEC services. The VTEC ones were the only ones significantly delayed. Yes, the trains are busy, but I've never had to stand.

Every trip I have done on a Class 170 has seen standard class absolutely ram packed, either out of Inverness or Glasgow. In more recent times from my last trip (2 years ago) judging from posts from other users on here, you can still be standing north of Perth. How is that satisfactory?

It isn't, but it's never happened to me. And it sounds like I'm a much more regular and recent traveller than you.

As drivers of these units have also pointed out, you also barely reach 50-55mph in one cresting Druimuachdar or Slochd with the throttle fully open. Based on those 2 issues alone I fundamentally disagree with your statement that "there is nothing fundamentally wrong with them". By the time I come back to Scotland on my next visit I hope they have been consigned to the history books on the HML. I grant you that they are a good solid design for lines like the Borders or maybe short semi-fast services between Edinburgh to Perth/Dundee but for HML services? To rework a 170 to be suitable you would have to strip it down to the bare bodyshell and totally refit it both internally and mechanically to match even a non refurbished HST.

Those are ridiculous assertions. You make it sound like the 170 is a piece of clapped-out junk. It isn't at all. The seating layout is very good, with a mix of tables and airline seats, and the seats themselves are very comfortable. The GWR HSTs are horribly claustrophobic and cramped, and I'd take a 170 over those any day.

As to why the HSTs have not been finished, Wabtec's manpower problems have been well documented on this forum. Corrosion is a factor, I agree, but there are a lot more moving parts to this. Also you are taking what I am saying slightly out of context. I said that an unrefurbished product is still an improvement on a 3 car 170 because it has more space and is designed for proper long haul service. So really where the other 25 sets are at this point is quite frankly irrelevant. Slam door trains are being introduced in December if I have understood correctly. Having the slam door stock is not at all ideal; I do agree with you on that- but it's still a step up on what passengers have to put up with now.

All of that is personal opinion, and you're giving those involved far too easy a ride here. Of course the location of all the other sets is relevant! They're not here because it was a crazy idea to use them - they're not fit for purpose, and attempting to make them so is turning out to be farcical.

 

[chuff chuff]

Were they removed?

Yes..

 

[43096]

Those are ridiculous assertions. You make it sound like the 170 is a piece of clapped-out junk. It isn't at all. The seating layout is very good, with a mix of tables and airline seats, and the seats themselves are very comfortable. The GWR HSTs are horribly claustrophobic and cramped, and I'd take a 170 over those any day.

I’m going to shock you.........

I agree. Nothing fundamentally wrong with a 170, and I find them more comfortable and have a better interior layout than a GW HST (which I wouldn’t say are cramped - there’s plenty of legroom - but definitely are claustrophobic). The ScotRail 170s are probably the best of the lot. The only real issue is they aren’t now long enough, and there are not enough spare units to do anything about it, which is why replacement was the only real option.

 

[GrimShady]

No, you wouldn't. You'd have to take out say 2 rows of seats and replace with a large luggage rack, and replace the engine with a larger one or some other means of improving acceleration like a 6 speed mechanical gearbox of the kind fitted to the superior evolution of them, the Class 172.

The noise of a 172 is even worse than a 170!

 

[route:oxford]

About once a month, from 2015 to 2017, at all times of day, at all times of the year, in both Standard and First, on mainly ScotRail but also occasional VTEC services. The VTEC ones were the only ones significantly delayed. Yes, the trains are busy, but I've never had to stand.

Then you have done very well indeed.

Standing to Stirling is the normal on Aberdeen/Inverness services departing from Glasgow

From 16:30 to 18:30 it's not uncommon for there to be standing passengers as far as Perth.

 

[Journeyman]

Then you have done very well indeed.

Standing to Stirling is the normal on Aberdeen/Inverness services departing from Glasgow

From 16:30 to 18:30 it's not uncommon for there to be standing passengers as far as Perth.

I think you're exaggerating somewhat. Yes, it can be busy, but I've travelled at peak times quite often and never seen it that busy.

 

[47271]

Aside from overcrowding in the evening peak north from Glasgow, which is a misuse of long distance trains in the first place, the real problems on the Highland Main Line are in the afternoon with the 1253 Inverness-Edinburgh probably being the worst of all. A single 170 is woefully inadequate, although in truth I'm not convinced that a four coach HST would be up to the task either.

If you know how the railway works then you rarely have to stand, it's the infrequent long distance passenger with large amounts of luggage who suffers most on Scotrail at the moment.

 

[Paul Kerr]

Those are ridiculous assertions. You make it sound like the 170 is a piece of clapped-out junk. It isn't at all. The seating layout is very good, with a mix of tables and airline seats, and the seats themselves are very comfortable. The GWR HSTs are horribly claustrophobic and cramped, and I'd take a 170 over those any day.

Really? Where did I say that? Read my post again. I made it clear I think that they are a good solid design for short haul services, but they should not be used on the HML and other longer distance services. I travelled on them when I regularly commuted on the E&G before emigrating. They were a very good fit for that line and a massive step up from the 158's. I have no problem with them being used on the Borders line and other short haul services, as I have mentioned time and again. You have not addressed the central points I made which were 1) they don't have enough power and 2) they don't have enough seats or luggage space for busy long haul services. There have been plenty of other posters who have tried (reasonably) to point out that services on the HML are regularly packed. So there is enough data to suggest that the 170's are inadequate for these services, despite your assertions to the contrary.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think you're exaggerating somewhat. Yes, it can be busy, but I've travelled at peak times quite often and never seen it that busy.

When I used to commute from QS to Perth on 1A77 I would have to stand all the way at least once a week.

 

[43096]

For those criticising Wabtec over the rate of progress, it is interesting to note that SWR have taken almost 12 months to get a fully refurbished 444 into service, and that doesn't involve putting in new doors or rectifying corrosion on 40 year old vehicles. Refurbishment in general takes longer than anticipated in almost every case - which suggests that TOCs are way too optimistic/naïve.

Just saying.

 

[Paul Kerr]

It's not the profile, it's bad design. The racks in First Class are plenty large enough; that type could be fitted throughout.

Door position prejudice makes it into the thread again. You remember Mk1s and early Mk2s had end doors and a centre door?

Fair point on the MK1 and MK2/MK2a, but if memory serves me correctly (the last time I travelled in one of these coaches was way back in 1990) the compartment with the centre door was partitioned off from the seating saloons was it not? With the 170, if you're sitting close to the doors you get a blast of frigid air in the winter when the doors open...

As built they have hydraulic transmissions with a lock-up facility (and may have two gears in lock-up, I forget which units do and which don't). The problem with this is that they waste a load of power on heat and noise in the transmission fluid. If that's difficult to understand, consider the idea of driving your car by starting off in third slipping the clutch - you won't start off quickly because you're just wasting energy heating up the clutch plates.

The Class 172 has a more traditional mechanical gearbox which uses a gear appropriate to starting off, and can therefore accelerate much more quickly from a standing start as it doesn't waste energy.

Consider, similarly, why cars don't tend to offer a hydraulic-coupled automatic gearbox on the smallest engine option...

I bow to your superior knowledge of the transmission operation on these units. So an upgraded gearbox would help acceleration but it's not going to help a huge deal with the cruising speed on steep uphill gradients unless the efficiency of the transmission is better at higher speed, right? As most of these services are limited stop and run log distances between stops, the acceleration won't make a big difference. You need a better power to mass ratio; as has been brought out by another poster, putting in upgraded engines isn't necessarily a cakewalk as it has been unsuccessfully tried already.

 

[deltic08]

Highly unlikely to ever happen. There would be protest about the visual and environmental impact in one of Scotland’s most beautiful areas. Look at the hassle with Beauly to Denny interconnectir.

Also cost.

If you want to stay in the dark ages in the Highlands don't complain about slow, over crowded, crap trains as the only way you will get better is by electrification.

Shap is just as beautiful with electrification as you hardly notice it. It is the scar and continual noise of the M6 motorway that has ruined Shap and the Lune Gorge.

 

[Bikeman78]

Didn't they claim it was due to large amounts of corrosion work required?

I believe so yes, but how come identical units from the same batch kept going in Scotland? In any case, you don't need to stop four at once. Stop one, work out what needs to be done, and then do the rest. For Scotrail the timing couldn't have been worse because they lost four units just as the Tweedbank line opened. It suffered chronic overcrowding so three car 170s would have been very useful.

 

[Highland37]

I can't see there being much opposition to electrification based on visual grounds. Drumochter is already wrecked by grouse management.

 

[alangla]

I think you're exaggerating somewhat. Yes, it can be busy, but I've travelled at peak times quite often and never seen it that busy.

The 1811 (roughly) from Queen Street to Inverness was always a nightmare. First off-peak of the evening and stopped at every lamp post from Larbert onwards (literally, every station!), so mixed long distance travellers with an enormous number of people going to places like Larbert, Stirling & BofA. In my mind, it should have been fast to Gleneagles but I’m sure there’s a reason for its pattern

 

[47271]

The 1811 (roughly) from Queen Street to Inverness was always a nightmare. First off-peak of the evening and stopped at every lamp post from Larbert onwards (literally, every station!), so mixed long distance travellers with an enormous number of people going to places like Larbert, Stirling & BofA. In my mind, it should have been fast to Gleneagles but I’m sure there’s a reason for its pattern

The reason for the pattern is that the 1811 is a 2013 extension of an old Perth semi fast. So it was either this or no direct train to Inverness.

This is how overstretched Scotrail is.

 

[Journeyman]

The reason for the pattern is that the 1811 is a 2013 extension of an old Perth semi fast. So it was either this or no direct train to Inverness.

This is how overstretched Scotrail is.

In terms of what? Stock? Paths? Crews?

 

[47271]

In terms of what? Stock? Paths? Crews?

Stock as I understand it from the time of the train's introduction. They were able to juggle units at Perth to allow the extension through to Inverness.

It was quite a while ago and I'm only going by chit chat.

Are you thinking that there might be a better way of running a Glasgow-Inverness express at that time of day?

 

[Journeyman]

Stock as I understand it from the time of the train's introduction. They were able to juggle units at Perth to allow the extension through to Inverness.

It was quite a while ago and I'm only going by chit chat.

Are you thinking that there might be a better way of running a Glasgow-Inverness express at that time of day?

No, I was just wondering what the constraints were. Could be any number of things, given the large amount of single track on the HML.

 

[47271]

No, I was just wondering what the constraints were. Could be any number of things, given the large amount of single track on the HML.

It gets a lucky slot in behind the Edinburgh-Inverness 20 mins ahead and makes a few more calls, so I don't think the path was ever a problem.

Funny to think that they thought they were short of units five years ago, they didn't know they were born.

 

[alangla]

Are you thinking that there might be a better way of running a Glasgow-Inverness express at that time of day?

Personally I’d send it fast to Stirling (pu only) then straight to Gleneagles. There’s an enormous number that bail out at Larbert who could be shoved onto the 1818 Alloa behind, using the stock of 2N96 to shuttle from Stirling to BofA and Dunblane if necessary. When I used it occasionally to Stirling, I used to shell out the extra £1.50 or something for First to get a seat. Kind of annoying when the gripper ignored Larbert season holders sitting in first. Anyway, back on topic, presumably this service will be an HST soon, will it still stop at every shack?

 

[47271]

Personally I’d send it fast to Stirling (pu only) then straight to Gleneagles. There’s an enormous number that bail out at Larbert who could be shoved onto the 1818 Alloa behind, using the stock of 2N96 to shuttle from Stirling to BofA and Dunblane if necessary. When I used it occasionally to Stirling, I used to shell out the extra £1.50 or something for First to get a seat. Kind of annoying when the gripper ignored Larbert season holders sitting in first. Anyway, back on topic, presumably this service will be an HST soon, will it still stop at every shack?

The full HST schedule assumes no stops between Glasgow and Stirling.

In the December 2018 timetable this train will become the 1809 Queen Street-Inverness, with all stations covered between Larbert and Perth.

I don't know whether it'll be operated by an HST from next month, but if it is it certainly won't be a refurbed one...

 

[ld0595]

The full HST schedule assumes no stops between Glasgow and Stirling.

In the December 2018 timetable this train will become the 1809 Queen Street-Inverness, with all stations covered between Larbert and Perth.

I don't know whether it'll be operated by an HST from next month, but if it is it certainly won't be a refurbed one...

Looking at the HST diagrams, it appears this won't be an HST.

 

[GrimShady]

I believe so yes, but how come identical units from the same batch kept going in Scotland? In any case, you don't need to stop four at once. Stop one, work out what needs to be done, and then do the rest. For Scotrail the timing couldn't have been worse because they lost four units just as the Tweedbank line opened. It suffered chronic overcrowding so three car 170s would have been very useful.

Exactly!

I smell BS in that one!

Strange how the 170s that went to Northern never had such issues.