Were refurbished HSTs the right choice for ScotRail?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Journeyman, 9 Oct 2018.

  1. alangla

    alangla Member

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    Even if 185 actually happened, are ScotRail express services not heavily reliant on SP or HST speed differentials to keep time? 185 definitely doesn’t appear to be the answer
     
  2. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    They could cancel the contract with Wabtec, or at least part of it and contract someone else to carry out the work.
    Lease some emus and loco haul them until HSTs are done.
    Apply for a derogation.
     
  3. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Yes, I'm sure a bunch of elderly diesels hauling some 319s (the only EMUs I can think of in storage?) around would go down smashingly
     
  4. Highlandspring

    Highlandspring Established Member

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    ..with no door or brake control. This thread is taking a lurch towards Walter Mitty territory.
     
  5. hollyblue

    hollyblue Member

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    made some calls and got this heading down to fill in. Don’t thank me
     

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  6. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Any alternative is looking at needing 100-125 carriages and 50 locomotives- or 25 locomotives and 25 compatible driving trailers. Right now.
     
  7. leightonbd

    leightonbd Member

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    They have a class 31 and a class 27 too ...
     
  8. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    It was a bit of a joke.
    They'll just apply for a derogation to run the slam door HSTs for a while.
     
  9. scotraildriver

    scotraildriver Member

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    Just to get back on track, unrefurbished slam door HSTs will enter service on the 10th December. All parties in agreement this is the only viable option even if it means a temporary return to slam doors and non CET toilets. The RMT have accepted this as a temporary solution but must be removed from service as soon a physically possible. Guards are being trained and sets organised. It is going to happen and is far from ideal, but preferable to cancelling services.
     
  10. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    They can apply... In my view it is unlikely that they will get it. Frankly if derogations are allowed (and in my view, given how long the railway industry has had to sort things out and failed abysmally, they should not be) there are more deserving causes eg TfW
     
  11. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    So perhaps TfW and others will also get a derogation.
    If the choice is grant a derogation or force mass service curtailments whilst perfectly usable trains sit in sidings, I know which way the political pressure will be applied.
    It's not as if there aren't solutions like ramps which mitigate the accessibility issues of older stock. Those don't suddenly cease to exist on some arbitrary date.
     
  12. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    DfT will be very hesitant not least because they know very well that litigation would follow (not only from disability groups but also potentially those who have incurred significant expense to achieve the deadline). Let's be brutally honest, the rail industry has had over 10 years to address this but frankly just haven't bothered, presumably just expecting derrogations as of right. If there are no derrogations the TOCs will quite deservedly suffer financial penalties for breaking their franchise obligations..
     
    Last edited: 8 Nov 2018
  13. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    But ultimately it's the passengers who would suffer if there was no train at all - including those who are of reduced mobility.
    Not suggesting derogations should be granted on an open-ended basis. But granting a derogation until such time as new of refurbished stock is available would be pragmatic.
    That wouldn't prevent financial or other consequences for those who have failed to fulfill their obligations from being applied.
     
  14. TT-ONR-NRN

    TT-ONR-NRN On Moderation

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    One of the problems here is, although there are some trains available from other operations, you have to take into consideration driver learning and clearing the unit for the line.
     
  15. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    You keep banging on about those of reduced mobility - what about those with other disabilities who would be sold down the river?
     
  16. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    I mentioned reduced mobility once directly and once obliquely. Hardly "banging on".

    Other disabilities. Partially sighted, pretty easy to paint a door in a contrasting colour. Unable to operate the door, pretty easy to employ someone to take care of that.

    Hardly selling anyone down the river if it's only a stop gap because a programme which was meant to deliver a compliant fleet over a year in advance of the deadline is horribly delayed.
    Or perhaps everyone else should be "sold down the river" and expected to find other ways to go about their daily lives.

    Would disabled people rather continue with the current mitigation measures for a year or so or have no train service at all for a year or so?
     
  17. Class37.4

    Class37.4 Member

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    Well I think it will happen if needed, which probably will be on a number of franchises, and in particular I’m interested to know how they can make the MML HST’s compliant in the next 14 months.
     
  18. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    And the reason why it hasn’t been done? That’s because DfT haven’t authorised the work - it was told years ago what needed to be done and by when and has buried its head in the sand.
     
  19. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    It turns out they were the wrong decision.

    The correct decision would have been to order a batch of 20 seven-coach Hybrid 22x series in 2013 when project Thor was being mooted.
     
  20. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Eh? They wouldn't be building any new ones, and none would be available of the existing ones yet.

    There are a number of options which it turned out may have been better, e.g. lok+Mk5, Class 800, Stadler FLIRT, CAF DMU or whatever.
     
  21. Paul Kerr

    Paul Kerr Member

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    So you keep telling us, you think they are a bad choice. But with respect to you I have yet to see you come up with a feasible alternative with the funds that ScotRail had available, and please don't go back to your notion of using a 6 car Class 170. As an intercity train they are a complete joke. Leaving the underfloor engine argument aside which I accept we could go back and forth on all day, the doors are in the wrong place, they don't have nearly enough luggage space and their engines are woefully underpowered, and that's just for starters. That is what happens when you try and use a generic commuter design and pass it off on long distance services.

    Plenty in the industry thought it crazy so you say. Those probably would be the same people who foisted Class 170's, 180's, 185's and other glorified railbus designs on long distance travellers. We need to wait for more trains to enter service but with their performance they could be a game changer and they were designed without the compromises we see on many of the shiny "modern" designs of today. The unfortunate thing is that train design is too often dictated by accountants which leads to poorly designed trains. Many of the HST replacements have been like trading a 40 year old Rolls Royce for a brand new Fiat 500. No disrespect to those who drive a Fiat but you're not comparing like with like and I know which one I'd rather have. You think the HSTs are such a bad idea? Go ahead and suggest a serious proven alternative that a) is available now and b) matches the performance of a short formed HST. Just because it's shiny and "new" doesn't mean it's better.
     
  22. GusB

    GusB Established Member

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    Going back to when Abellio was awarded the Scotrail franchise, how many of those options were actually available at the time? 800/801 had already been proposed, but the 802 hadn't - and I'd imagine that Scotrail services would need the extra oomph from the uprated engines. The Mk5, FLIRT and CAF DMUs are a much more recent developments.
     
  23. Journeyman

    Journeyman Member

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    The Mark 5 design concept has actually been around for years. Remember that the Sleeper franchise was awarded at the same time as the ScotRail one, and the Mark 5 had already been largely designed by then - it was intended as a family of vehicles for a range of different purposes.
     
  24. Northhighland

    Northhighland Member

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    Are they really suitable for the HML though? Mk5 maybe fine but the others look like modern 170’s to me.

    Very frustrating to be stuck in Dalwhinnie in a moderate snow fall on a 170. To watch a loco hauled Tesco train drive past.

    The HML is unlikely to ever be electrified so we need a long term suitable alternative that can grow with capacity changes and meet seasonal peaks so we offer tourists encouragement to come to Scotland.

    Current mess needs fixed with input from people who live and work in the Highlands. Not sorted in Edinburgh or Glasgow.
     
  25. Journeyman

    Journeyman Member

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    There's nothing wrong with 170s that a decent refurb, and reforming into longer sets, couldn't fix. All the other options available are prefectly decent trains too.
     
  26. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Given that ScotRail are losing only 20 Class 170 sets (4 to Southern, 16 to Northern), and that the design is out of production, maybe you can explain your plan to cover the shortfall between 121 HST trailers and 60 170 cars.
     
  27. whhistle

    whhistle Established Member

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    May as well just not bother with the deadline if everyone who it affects will get some sort of derogation...

    Like airport check-in, a deadline is a deadline.
    If that means trains are short, so be it for the TOCs not looking at other solutions.

    Guess using the 442s and locos was also out of the question :P
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2018
  28. Journeyman

    Journeyman Member

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    Transport Scotland stated in the franchise specs that refurbed 170s were acceptable, so it may well have been possible to bid on the basis of keeping them.
     
  29. Journeyman

    Journeyman Member

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    Hahaha! Someone had to say it. ;)
     
  30. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Congratulations on not answering the question.

    So 50 cars less capacity is/was OK, then?
     

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