We're waiting for the Oldham Loop...

[tbtc]

On this occasion the main problem was outside of Northern's and Network Rail's control

...but every Metrolink delay gets scrutinised whilst delays on heavy rail don't...

 

[pemma]

...but every Metrolink delay gets scrutinised whilst delays on heavy rail don't...

That contradicts what some train drivers have posted on here before.

 

[WatcherZero]

Looking at the current NRE status board there are 17 active delays and 7 cleared delays already today. Do you think every single one of them becomes news?

 

[pemma]

Looking at the current NRE status board there are 17 active delays and 7 cleared delays already today. Do you think every single one of them becomes news?

I assumed tbtc was referring to the delays being scrutinised by the transport companies not the media. Like I said the MEN only reported one of the major problems on Metrolink yesterday, AFAIK there have been no major problems on National Rail around Manchester today, just a few trains running a few minutes behind schedule.

However, in response to your question, any major disruption gets reported on rail, Metrolink, the roads or at the Airport gets reported by the media.

When there was a fire in Manchester and platforms 13 and 14 were closed at Piccadilly that made the news because numerous services were cancelled or terminated short as well as roads being closed.

I've never seen a media report mentioning one or two cancellations, delays or short terminations on Metrolink any more than with heavy rail.

If you're at Victoria waiting for a Bury tram and you turn up at say 12:20 and see a tram just leaving and the next one doesn't come until 12:30 you don't know whether the 12:30 is a late running service or whether there has been a cancelled service and the next one has left early.

 

[tbtc]

To be honest I don't think the MEN aren't being that anti-Metrolink. Look here:
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...ces-from-altrincham-to-manchester-city-centre

They've simply reported there was a problem with the OHE today which caused delays. They've not even mentioned that there was also a failed tram this morning, even though they reported Friday's failed tram, which is a bit inconsistent in their reporting but that works in Metrolink favour this time.

It's the readers who are posting the negative comments about the system in the comments section.

Again on Friday they reported the problem - the readers post the negative comments:
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...-altrincham-and-bury-lines-after-tram-failure

3 major problems in 2 working days - can you imagine how that would be reported by the Daily Mail if they didn't just moan about London public transport problems?

Then again there were problems with trains in Manchester too - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65811 - the difference being that that doesn't help the "trams are bad" agenda

On this occasion the main problem was outside of Northern's and Network Rail's control

...but every Metrolink delay gets scrutinised whilst delays on heavy rail don't...

That contradicts what some train drivers have posted on here before.

Looking at the current NRE status board there are 17 active delays and 7 cleared delays already today. Do you think every single one of them becomes news?

I assumed tbtc was referring to the delays being scrutinised by the transport companies not the media

You assume wrongly - I was talking about the way that you are bringing up any/every problem with Metrolink (even down to the level of one tram being caught up by another, so the company turned one short - pretty inconsequential stuff) to suit your agenda - whilst there are daily delays on all forms of transport (heavy rail, light rail etc).

 

[spargazer]

I wonder what the general consensus (opinion) is, are M5000s an improvement on 141s and 142s or a step backwards?

please give your reasons in less than 5 or less lines of text, keep explitives to no more than one every line without repitition or the words T67 or T68.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
this is Oldham Loop specific of course

 

[pemma]

I wonder what the general consensus (opinion) is, are M5000s an improvement on 141s and 142s or a step backwards?

please give your reasons in less than 5 or less lines of text, keep explitives to no more than one every line without repitition or the words T67 or T68.

I need 5 lines to state the differences. My overall conclusion is it depends how the M5000s are used compared to how the 142s are used.

* Seating is worse on the M5000s.
* Ride quality I think is slightly worse on the M5000s but apparently that can be fixed.
* M5000s are much quieter than Pacers.
* Lot less seating on M5000s so you need 2.3 trams to replace every 142.
* M5000s lack toilets, luggage space and can't carry bikes.

this is Oldham Loop specific of course

The Oldham Loop did of course see Sprinters as well as Pacers. The 5 x 142s came out from 10 carriages falling outside the franchise commitment once the Oldham Loop was closed and Pacers are the first candidate for withdrawal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

{speechless}

I just found it amazing that someone would quote 7 recent posts and not quote a less recent one that they were referring to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's an article in the MEN today about the possibility of further expanding Metrolink Trams onto rail lines. (Insert or depending on your point of view)

I'm not familiar with the "pioneering bid to run trams on train tracks in Yorkshire" but I'm thinking the only scope for this in the TfGM area without affecting longer distance rail services would be Manchester/Glossop/Hadfield and maybe Manchester/Hyde/Marple Rose Hill?

Do not confuse "tram" operation with "tram/train" operation. There are those far better qualified than I on this forum, to explain the differences between the different modes of traction and strength of rolling stock so employed.

With regard to the matter of the Marple/Marple Rose Hill line that bifurcates north of Marple station, again I ask what would happen to the stopping heavy rail services from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield that use that particular line, should conversion to either tram or tram/train operation be sought.

 

[pemma]

With regard to the matter of the Marple/Marple Rose Hill line that bifurcates north of Marple station, again I ask what would happen to the stopping heavy rail services from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield that use that particular line.

The plan is a bit of a strange one for Sheffield-Manchester service. It's for Sheffield to have 2tph to Victoria (and beyond) and 2tph to Piccadilly (and beyond) (both semi-fast) but they would be in the form of portion workings until somewhere like Chinley where one would then go to Victoria via Marple and the other would go to Piccadilly via Hazel Grove. So there should be no full conversion of the Marple route, only putting tram-trains on it.

Chinley would get more stoppers to Manchester and the Liverpool-Norwich service may be routed away from Sheffield, so could be in addition to the above two semi-fasts.

I'm not sure if Chinley-Sheffield is supposed to get more trains or not.

Maybe this thread should be renamed to discuss everything except the Oldham Loop here.

 

[Ivo]

When the Oldham town centre route is opened, what will happen to the original trackbed? Will it be left to rot or do Oldham MBC have any developments planned?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Chinley would get more stoppers to Manchester and the Liverpool-Norwich service may be routed away from Sheffield, so could be in addition to the above two semi-fasts.

As you say, "off-thread syndrome" has affected this thread, but since there is a perfectly good "Metrolink new routes" thread already in existence, I wonder why this was not used to carry any points that were raised from the first point onwards in this new thread.

I do ask as a final point, in response to the possible Sheffield loss of this service stated above, what response in that large city would this proposed loss provoke.

 

[pemma]

I do ask as a final point, in response to the possible Sheffield loss of this service stated above, what response in that large city would this proposed loss provoke.

It would probably be in conjunction with the Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham services becoming half-hourly if Liverpool-Norwich is diverted. The diversion is an aspiration of Nottingham council as they believe their Manchester service is too slow.

The semi-fasts would continue beyond Manchester if suitable destinations are available so it could be (as an example)

Service 1: Sheffield to Manchester Airport via Piccadilly and Sheffield to Chester via Victoria.

Service 2: Sheffield to Liverpool via Piccadilly and Sheffield to Preston via Victoria.

Network Rail have listed possible destinations for the Northern Hub as they manage the infrastructure for the services not the services on the infrastructure.

 

[pemma]

Apologies for not having time on my lunch break to find every quote - I think most people get the gist though

I thought you were referring to what you had quoted not an earlier post, which is why initially I was thinking "what are you going on about."

What I was really getting at with the trams terminating short comment is the Navigation Road bottleneck due to there being one line for light rail and one for heavy rail and really there's too many trams to have a single line section with a stop on it. Consequently this means it's a fairly frequent occurrence for passengers to be thrown off at Timperley. In another thread previously (well before this thread started) I suggested a way of getting two lines for Metrolink between Timperley and Altrincham and possibly a short extension beyond Altrincham but people didn't seem to like the route I suggested.

 

[martin2345uk]

When the Oldham town centre route is opened, what will happen to the original trackbed? Will it be left to rot or do Oldham MBC have any developments planned?

Hi Ivo,
It will be closed and the track and infrastructure removed.

 

[WatcherZero]

And recycled into the Airport route.

 

[futureA]

* Lot less seating on M5000s so you need 2.3 trams to replace every 142.

How did you work that one out?! Comparing seating capacity but ignoring total capacity does not show the whole picture.

 

[HSTEd]

Where is that picture of the crush loaded 142?

 

[pemma]

How did you work that one out?! Comparing seating capacity but ignoring total capacity does not show the whole picture.

Where is that picture of the crush loaded 142?

Well DfT's definition of the standing capacity for a train assumes a sensible number of standees but TfGM' definition of a standing capacity for a tram assumes the maximum possible loading. So there isn't a fair comparison of seating capacity.

Passengers, however, will compare capacity on whether they can get a seat or not.

 

[snail]

Passengers, however, will compare capacity on whether they can get a seat or not.

But on relatively short local journeys people are happy to stand even when seats are available. People often complain about not getting a seat but would rather board a full service than wait for the next one (with the obvious risk of that also being full).

 

[futureA]

But on relatively short local journeys people are happy to stand even when seats are available. People often complain about not getting a seat but would rather board a full service than wait for the next one (with the obvious risk of that also being full).

You see this a lot on metrolink. I often choose to stand even when there are seats.

 

[pemma]

But on relatively short local journeys people are happy to stand even when seats are available.

Oldham to Manchester isn't that short though.

Sometimes people stand because they can't get seats next to people they are travelling with or because they are alighting at the next stop/station.

but would rather board a full service than wait for the next one (with the obvious risk of that also being full).

Or not turning up.

I once saw a Piccadilly tram when I arrived at Bury Metrolink stop and thought I shouldn't have to wait too long for an Altrincham tram. Turns out after that tram left it took 45 minutes for another departure due to disruption in the city centre.

I would have been better off boarding the first tram to the wrong destination and changing and I've noticed a lot of people now do this.

 

[tbtc]

How did you work that one out?! Comparing seating capacity but ignoring total capacity does not show the whole picture.

Agreed, especially when much modern stock (tram and heavy rail) is designed for standees (more room around the doors etc).

On a tram journey of a couple of stops I'd rather stand than sit, even on an empty tram.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyone know when the Oldham Loop line is due to open?

I think that this question needs throwing open to the floor of the forum for a new update on the position.

 

[Nym]

More an answer is "When will Thales get sacked from making the new TMS for Metrolink?"

 

[Class377/5]

I think that this question needs throwing open to the floor of the forum for a new update on the position.

Shouldn't be too long now as the whole route from Victoria has been used for driver training. More a case if ensuring enough drivers are trained up.

Sunday saw trams going over the new junction to Oldham. Monday is up posed to see ghost running with trams doing whole St Werbys to Oldham jouneries with passengers taken off at Victoria.

Oldham to Manchester isn't that short though.

24mins isn't short? Really? I walk that every day to get to the nearest Tube station.

 

[futureA]

Agreed, especially when much modern stock (tram and heavy rail) is designed for standees (more room around the doors etc).

On a tram journey of a couple of stops I'd rather stand than sit, even on an empty tram.

142's are definitely non complaint now anyway. If they where replaced with similar sized heavy rail vehicles designed today they would definitely have less seats.

 

[WatcherZero]

Should I dare point out that the stock for the proposed Picc-Vicc tunnel would have had Longitudal seating like the Underground, hence even fewer seats :P

 

[PR1Berske]

Oldham will open on the 11th June

 

[Eagle]

Oldham will open on the 11th June

Source?

(Not saying I don't believe you, of course, just interested in the details.)

 

[pemma]

If they where replaced with similar sized heavy rail vehicles designed today they would definitely have less seats.

Replacing Pacers with similar sized vehicles today would not be common sense. The railways are now a lot better utilised than in the early 1980s.