West Coast on track for 50 million passengers by 2026

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-47805985

Nearly 2,000 people travel between Glasgow and London every day by Virgin Trains - an increase of almost a third in six years, according to new figures.

In the last financial year, the operator carried 688,026 passengers between Glasgow and London - roughly 1,885 a day.

The figure represents a 29% increase from 2012-13.

Journeys between Edinburgh or Glasgow and Birmingham have also risen by nearly 60,000 from 94,544 to 152,673.

In total, nearly 40 million journeys were made with the firm on the 400-mile West Coast Mainline route connecting London to major cities such as Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow during 2018/19.

This is up by almost 10 million compared with six years earlier.

Virgin Trains claimed the current growth rate means annual passenger numbers could hit 50 million by 2026, which is when HS2 is due to open between London and Birmingham.

The rail operator said the increase in passenger numbers was due to its investment in the west coast route.

• What do we know about HS2?
• High speed rail 'will benefit Scotland'

Managing director Phil Whittingham said: "We have worked tirelessly with government and industry partners to completely transform the west coast route, introducing a fleet of new trains, achieving one of the biggest timetable changes since privatisation without a hitch and bringing a focus on customer experience that the industry had not experienced before."

A Campaign for Better Transport report published this week found that investment in services on the west coast mainline since 2009 has cut journey times by up to 28% and led to seven million fewer car journeys per year between London and Manchester.

The campaign's chief executive Darren Shirley said: "At a time when rail investment is being questioned because of poorly implemented timetable changes, problems with franchises and over-running and over-budget projects, it is easy to lose sight of the huge benefits which can be achieved.

"Rather than being happy side effects, outcomes such as lower carbon emissions, support for local economies and tackling road congestion should be regarded as a direct consequence of support for the railways."

What does everyone think?

 

[yorksrob]

The old pendolino certainly seems to have worked its magic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does everyone think?

I think overall they are a decent TOC with reasonable rolling stock and a lot of capacity, as well as more reasonable walk-up off-peak fares than some other TOCs for historical reasons. (Those reasons being that VT abolished SuperSavers shortly after privatisation and reduced the Savers to a price roughly half way between the Saver and SuperSaver - and that price then became regulated).

I wonder if some of the increase has been due to them being able to offer cheaper fares on the "via Brum" services, which may have tempted people from air and car?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think overall they are a decent TOC with reasonable rolling stock and a lot of capacity, as well as more reasonable walk-up off-peak fares than some other TOCs for historical reasons. (Those reasons being that VT abolished SuperSavers shortly after privatisation and reduced the Savers to a price roughly half way between the Saver and SuperSaver - and that price then became regulated).

I wonder if some of the increase has been due to them being able to offer cheaper fares on the "via Brum" services, which may have tempted people from air and car?

Another reason may have been new services to Blackpool, Shrewsbury and Glasgow-London via Birmingham being added which have offered more services than 6 years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another reason may have been new services to Blackpool, Shrewsbury and Glasgow-London via Birmingham being added which have offered more services than 6 years ago.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Isn't that what I said?

You were talking about fares??? I was talking about the addition of new services. Maybe I am getting confused.

 

[Starmill]

You were talking about fares??? I was talking about the addition of new services. Maybe I am getting confused.

Well, services between Birmingham and Scotland aren't new. Cheaper Advance tickets to London, sometimes much cheaper, on these services than on the fast trains, isn't new either. The only thing that's 'new' is the removal of the change of trains at Birmingham New Street.

 

[Starmill]

Nearly 2,000 people travel between Glasgow and London every day by Virgin Trains - an increase of almost a third in six years, according to new figures.

Big numbers sound appealing, and percentage growth has been very strong. But let's keep a context here.

2000 people daily? Is this per direction?

Typically there are 23 daily services. That's an average of less than 90 passengers per train. Nothing to be shouting about on a near 600 seat 11 car Pendolino.

Even if you got them all at the Standard Anytime rate (a very high estimate for the average yield, more people will be on Off Peak or Advance tickets at a lower rate than this than a higher (First Class) rate) that would be about £16k per train, which isn't a great deal.

I think it shows that there's still a more significant rail market between Lancashire (+ Wigan +Warrington) and London than Glasgow.

Presumably we can assume therefore, contrary to some of the suggestions above, that nearly all of the London to Glasgow traffic is still going on the fast trains (generally 15 daily services).

Let's remember that TfL takes considerably more revenue from London Buses than fares revenue to Virgin Trains.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think overall they are a decent TOC

I'm inclined to agree with that sentiment - all they need to do is sort out the Euston gateline staff....

Edit: I should point out I have had no negative experiences with them myslef - I am only going by what others have experienced as reported on here.

 

[3141]

I wonder how things would have worked out if First had been able to take over in 2012. Or if Virgin's bid at that time had been successful.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

This ……...

I'm inclined to agree with that sentiment - all they need to do is sort out the Euston gateline staff....

They really don't seem interested in the lack of knowledge and attitiude of the gateline staff at Euston. It's a constant battle unless you have a std anytime ticket.

Virgin spend so much on advertising , trying to look cool and fashionable but then the gateline staff wearing Virign uniforms give a very different impression.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They really don't seem interested in the lack of knowledge and attitiude of the gateline staff at Euston. It's a constant battle unless you have a std anytime ticket.

Virgin spend so much on advertising , trying to look cool and fashionable but then the gateline staff wearing Virign uniforms give a very different impression.

The best thing they could do would be to finish the job on the gatelines and get said staff out of the way. But that seems to have stalled with only 1-3 being completed, despite the plan being to do all platforms except 16-18.

 

[Carlisle]

The old pendolino certainly seems to have worked its magic.

Yes, they’ve certainly benefited from their good original design & ongoing maintenance given complete failures of Pendolinos themselves are almost unheard of nowadays, and infrastructure on the southern section of the WCML is also very reliable since the WCRM upgrades, in comparison to some other major routes
I doubt the new classic compatibles when they eventually emerge will ultimately prove any more reliable

 

[mrmatt]

2000 people daily? Is this per direction?

Typically there are 23 daily services. That's an average of less than 90 passengers per train. Nothing to be shouting about on a near 600 seat 11 car Pendolino.

That's the equivalent of just over 11 full A320s (in BA spec) - better not to require those flights. And that is just those travelling end to end - plenty of pendolino capacity is taken up with passengers travelling between intermediate stations.

 

[Robertj21a]

Big numbers sound appealing, and percentage growth has been very strong. But let's keep a context here.

2000 people daily? Is this per direction?

Typically there are 23 daily services. That's an average of less than 90 passengers per train. Nothing to be shouting about on a near 600 seat 11 car Pendolino.

Even if you got them all at the Standard Anytime rate (a very high estimate for the average yield, more people will be on Off Peak or Advance tickets at a lower rate than this than a higher (First Class) rate) that would be about £16k per train, which isn't a great deal.

I think it shows that there's still a more significant rail market between Lancashire (+ Wigan +Warrington) and London than Glasgow.

Presumably we can assume therefore, contrary to some of the suggestions above, that nearly all of the London to Glasgow traffic is still going on the fast trains (generally 15 daily services).

Let's remember that TfL takes considerably more revenue from London Buses than fares revenue to Virgin Trains.

Not sure what your point is ? - TfL run about 8,000 buses every day. That's rather a lot more transport journeys than Virgin West Coast.

 

[Mikey C]

Some impressive numbers those

Yes our railway system has some flaws in it, but it irritates me when people talk about it as if it's a complete disaster

 

[Ianno87]

Big numbers sound appealing, and percentage growth has been very strong. But let's keep a context here.

2000 people daily? Is this per direction?

Typically there are 23 daily services. That's an average of less than 90 passengers per train. Nothing to be shouting about on a near 600 seat 11 car Pendolino.

Even if you got them all at the Standard Anytime rate (a very high estimate for the average yield, more people will be on Off Peak or Advance tickets at a lower rate than this than a higher (First Class) rate) that would be about £16k per train, which isn't a great deal.

I think it shows that there's still a more significant rail market between Lancashire (+ Wigan +Warrington) and London than Glasgow.

Presumably we can assume therefore, contrary to some of the suggestions above, that nearly all of the London to Glasgow traffic is still going on the fast trains (generally 15 daily services).

Let's remember that TfL takes considerably more revenue from London Buses than fares revenue to Virgin Trains.

That is precisely the working out that I did; shows how relatively little demand on London-Glasgow trains is actually for London-Glasgow*. It's really London-Central Lancashire that fills them! Obviously, there will be peaks and troughs in this at certain times of the day and week.

*Don't know whether the figures include 'through' journeys of course, such as East Croydon to Dalmuir, for example.

However, London-Glasgow by rail is a long journey, so understand why people choose Air for time saving. Perhaps shows the potential once HS2 starts chipping away at the journey time?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, they’ve certainly benefited from their good original design & ongoing maintenance given complete failures of Pendolinos themselves are almost unheard of nowadays, and infrastructure on the southern section of the WCML is also very reliable since the WCRM upgrades, in comparison to some other major routes
I doubt the new classic compatibles when they eventually emerge will ultimately prove any more reliable

Yes, the route seemed to have its share of hiccups when I used it regularly in the 90's. It needed a bit of tlc.

 

[yorksrob]

That is precisely the working out that I did; shows how relatively little demand on London-Glasgow trains is actually for London-Glasgow*. It's really London-Central Lancashire that fills them! Obviously, there will be peaks and troughs in this at certain times of the day and week.

*Don't know whether the figures include 'through' journeys of course, such as East Croydon to Dalmuir, for example.

However, London-Glasgow by rail is a long journey, so understand why people choose Air for time saving. Perhaps shows the potential once HS2 starts chipping away at the journey time?

I've used VT a few times around Wigan and Lancaster over the last year, and there always seemed to be decent loadings going to, or coming from further North.

 

[route:oxford]

It's great, I like the Virgin service.

I'm so looking forward to being able to take an E-W service to Milton Keynes and grabbing a fast Virgin from there. If I go North from Oxford by train, I always take the Tube into London first, then pick up a fast Virgin from Euston.

 

[Starmill]

Not sure what your point is ? - TfL run about 8,000 buses every day. That's rather a lot more transport journeys than Virgin West Coast.

The point is that, in context, the influence of rail on the transport sector is relatively minor. Much as certain people (including me) would like to think otherwise.

 

[whhistle]

Or is it just that the West Coast connects a lot of the major cities - London , Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester...
They're very good with marketing too, having a larger pot of funds than I expect many TOCs.

With the BBC moving a lot of services out of London (to Manchester), there is going to be more people travelling between the cities in that business alone.

 

[route101]

I think overall they are a decent TOC with reasonable rolling stock and a lot of capacity, as well as more reasonable walk-up off-peak fares than some other TOCs for historical reasons. (Those reasons being that VT abolished SuperSavers shortly after privatisation and reduced the Savers to a price roughly half way between the Saver and SuperSaver - and that price then became regulated).

I wonder if some of the increase has been due to them being able to offer cheaper fares on the "via Brum" services, which may have tempted people from air and car?

Last time i looked at a Glasgow to London via Brum service for fares it told you to change at crewe to service via the trent valley.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Glasgow to the North West is a big market too which fills trains reasonably. Just like the North East to Edinburgh on the ECML.

 

[route101]

That is precisely the working out that I did; shows how relatively little demand on London-Glasgow trains is actually for London-Glasgow*. It's really London-Central Lancashire that fills them! Obviously, there will be peaks and troughs in this at certain times of the day and week.

*Don't know whether the figures include 'through' journeys of course, such as East Croydon to Dalmuir, for example.

However, London-Glasgow by rail is a long journey, so understand why people choose Air for time saving. Perhaps shows the potential once HS2 starts chipping away at the journey time?

Not much in it for rail vs air on London to Glasgow . Its only 4 and half hours by train. The glasgow services are getting busier

 

[Ianno87]

The point is that, in context, the influence of rail on the transport sector is relatively minor. Much as certain people (including me) would like to think otherwise.

But the impact of a major strategic rail line like the WCML on the economy of UK plc is proportionately much more significant per passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last time i looked at a Glasgow to London via Brum service for fares it told you to change at crewe to service via the trent valley.

The VTWC site gives you both options - direct and the quicker change. The North Wales service tends to be lightly loaded so the Advances are sometimes even cheaper with the change than without.

 

[Gems]

Get Transpennine off that route and allow Virgin more capacity. Heading for Glasgow your heart sinks when you realise the next service is a Transpennine four car sardine can.

 

[Mathew S]

Get Transpennine off that route and allow Virgin more capacity. Heading for Glasgow your heart sinks when you realise the next service is a Transpennine four car sardine can.

No. The only thing keeping down VTWC fares north of Crewe is the competition they get from TPE. Yes, you get what you pay for Service-wise, but I've done Wigan - Edinburgh on the peak morning TPE service before now and it's been a perfectly acceptable journey for less than half the price of a ticket on Virgin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. The only thing keeping down VTWC fares north of Crewe is the competition they get from TPE. Yea, you get what you pay for Service-weise, but I've done Wigan - Edinburgh on the peak morning TPE service before now and it's been a perfectly acceptable journey for less than half the price of a ticket on Virgin.

Overcrowding is the only major issue with the TPE service. I'd happily choose a 350 over a 390, and I often do (and I don't hate Pendolinos, I just particularly like Desiros).

The new CAF EMUs, however, seats aside, look to be the best "true InterCity" interior on the network. For those who don't have issues with the seats, which do seem a matter of opinion (I wonder if lighter people don't feel the base bar perhaps, as other than that and the shape of the headrest they are very similar to the Grammer E3000 on most Desiros which almost never seems to draw any complaints from anyone?), I can see them wiping the floor with VTWC.