West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

[6Gman]

Not from where iam from unfortunately. Maybe first should start running trains where iam from

Still struggling to understand what point you're trying to make I'm afraid.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Also I don't know if people are aware but the brand name has already been decided by FirstGroup (70%) and Trenitalia (30%) as the website is now live and it clearly states that West Coast Rail is the name that the services will use going forward and that isn't pure speculation but fact!

https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk/

The same websites says the brand has yet to be chosen

 

[ashkeba]

3 operators run 9 TOCs, isn’t that an average of 3 each? That isn’t excessive.

The monopoly talk is nonsense, most routes have a monopoly as they are only served by one operator.

Checks for a market monopoly usually start when one business has 40% of the market. Is there any way of drawing the passenger numbers to suggest that any one business's TOCs has that yet? I doubt it but I do not know the passenger numbers well enough. You can probably divide the rail market by region but to say that (for example) Abellio has a monopoly on services to/from Cheddington is too small to trigger a check because that seems to be a consequence of the structure of franchises.

 

[Chester1]

Perhaps Talgo have bid to make the new trains with a design that uses passive tilt? They should be able to adapt their designs to UK gauge and add diesel engines and they are keen on getting a foothold in the UK. Passive tilt units would be easier for a Rosco to re-home than full tilt units too. Passive tilt can enable increases of speed of 5-10mph which doesn't match full tilt. However, the superior acceleration on electric power vs a Voyager would probably enable them to match Voyager timings.

 

[RealTrains07]

Still struggling to understand what point you're trying to make I'm afraid.

Neither am i to be honest. Originally i was arguing that less people my age were travelling cause the train companies like first are terrible these days

 

[pt_mad]

Walsall doesn’t need intercity trains, and actually where would they go? except london, their are no paths considering its location and current services that already exist.

It was always expected that the pendolinos would be refurbished. Its a new franchise after all. Train refurbishments are always expected, thats no surprise at all

Things like free onboard wifi which virgin already implemented, first are trying to take credit for funnily enough

I doubt without any tilt technology the new trains will prove successful as the pendolino

I did actually point out that a refurb was expected whatever happened:
All in all pretty good pre HS2 I should say. Considering many were speculating it would be a tread water phase with a mini 390 221 refurb and shorter delay repay period only.

 

[pt_mad]

Walsall doesn’t need intercity trains, and actually where would they go? except london, their are no paths considering its location and current services that already exist.

It was always expected that the pendolinos would be refurbished. Its a new franchise after all. Train refurbishments are always expected, thats no surprise at all

Things like free onboard wifi which virgin already implemented, first are trying to take credit for funnily enough

I doubt without any tilt technology the new trains will prove successful as the pendolino

I did actually point out a refurb was expected:

All in all pretty good pre HS2 I should say. Considering many were speculating it would be a tread water phase with a mini 390 221 refurb and shorter delay repay period only.

The point I was making is that not much else was broadly expected, other than a basic refurb and improved delay repay. New seats I would say even some doubted they would be planned, with many suggesting re-upholstering of existing seats would be most likely.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Let's hope with the interior refurb of 390s that the seat window alignment gets better and better pitch/legroom and also more available low down luggage space.

 

[pt_mad]

Let's hope with the interior refurb of 390s that the seat window alignment gets better and better pitch/legroom and also more available low down luggage space.

Hopefully they move the luggage racks to in front of those blanked out windows which currently have some seats there. Perhaps slightly shorter seats would make the coach feel more airy and at least you could see a window in front.

 

[mmh]

Probably a health & safety thing?

Though TfW still has flipdown seats in the vestibules which are incredibly uncomfortable (IMO) because your back slides all over the place.

Unlikely to be elf an safety, I'd think. Lots of newer trains have tip-up seats, including Pendolinos. 350s have them alongside the disabled toilet, 171s have them in the doorways - an awful idea on a doors-at-thirds train.

 

[Muenchener]

Do we have any idea of the timeframe for the pendolino refurbishment and the increase in services to motherwell?

Pure conjecture on my part but I can't see 390 refurbs being done for at least two years. Replacing the Voyagers and delivering the training will require some very focused management. You only have to look at TPE and Northern's attempt to introduce new fleets to realise some of the pitfalls involved. Northern's case not helped by also trying to get the Sprinters modified to PRM standard.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Perhaps Talgo have bid to make the new trains with a design that uses passive tilt? They should be able to adapt their designs to UK gauge and add diesel engines and they are keen on getting a foothold in the UK. Passive tilt units would be easier for a Rosco to re-home than full tilt units too. Passive tilt can enable increases of speed of 5-10mph which doesn't match full tilt. However, the superior acceleration on electric power vs a Voyager would probably enable them to match Voyager timings.

Alstom's TASS system is mandatory on the WCML to enable tilt.
Tilt-at-will is not allowed as there are places where any tilt would foul the minimum clearance (Crane St Jn in Wolverhampton has been quoted).

Pure conjecture on my part but I can't see 390 refurbs being done for at least two years. Replacing the Voyagers and delivering the training will require some very focused management. You only have to look at TPE and Northern's attempt to introduce new fleets to realise some of the pitfalls involved. Northern's case not helped by also trying to get the Sprinters modified to PRM standard.

Pendolinos have just finished a mid-life refurb/repainting, so there will be no rush to do another one quickly.
They've recently started on Voyagers, and that fleet will take a while to complete (possibly the first trains in new branding, as there'll be no point in applying Virgin branding now).

 

[EE Andy b1]

Pure conjecture on my part but I can't see 390 refurbs being done for at least two years. Replacing the Voyagers and delivering the training will require some very focused management. You only have to look at TPE and Northern's attempt to introduce new fleets to realise some of the pitfalls involved. Northern's case not helped by also trying to get the Sprinters modified to PRM standard.

I think Class 221 Super Voyager replacement will be 2-3 years away which if by what you think would put all that testing/training at the same time as Class 390 refurbishment.
So i think 6 months into next year whilst Widnes is available to start the process of refurbishing 390s which will probably take 2 years to complete, then they will be done and out of the way when the 2 new micro fleets arrive for testing/training of drivers/train managers and catering crews.
They will want them micro fleets out of the way because from 2024 testing/training is to begin on HS2 Classic compatible EMUs.

Pendolinos have just finished a mid-life refurb/repainting, so there will be no rush to do another one quickly.
They've recently started on Voyagers, and that fleet will take a while to complete (possibly the first trains in new branding, as there'll be no point in applying Virgin branding now).

Pendolinos have had a mid-life repaint only apart from some carpets. So will need doing fully on the interior.

221101 was a one off to show what could be done with Voyagers but never finished and apart from perhaps the first class they also needs a complete interior refit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also I don't know if people are aware but the brand name has already been decided by FirstGroup (70%) and Trenitalia (30%) as the website is now live and it clearly states that West Coast Rail is the name that the services will use going forward and that isn't pure speculation but fact!
https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk/

I don't know where they found the piece of track for the picture on the front page of their new web site.
It plainly isn't anywhere on the WCP network, and possibly not even in the UK.
There is no fence between the (unelectrified) single track and the adjacent road!
It will probably just be the web site they used for the bid material.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Pendolinos have had a mid-life repaint only apart from some carpets. So will need doing fully on the interior.
221101 was a one off to show what could be done with Voyagers but never finished and apart from perhaps the first class also needs a complete interior refit.

No, the 390s have had some major work internally including lighting and new wifi.
Coach G (1st class) in 9-car sets has also been reconfigured as coach F (standard), with new seats.
Plus I think toilet upgrades.
Much more than an external repaint.

Somewhere it says Voyagers will get a refurb and I imagine that job will be the first, as they are in greater need than the 390s.

 

[pt_mad]

I don't know where they found the piece of track for the picture on the front page of their new web site.
It plainly isn't anywhere on the WCP network, and possibly not even in the UK.
There is no fence between the (unelectrified) single track and the adjacent road!
It will probably just be the web site they used for the bid material.

Probably from the same place (VT) got that image on their TV ad of a Pendolino coming out from the tunnel of love with no overhead wires to be seen.

 

[danielnez1]

I don't know where they found the piece of track for the picture on the front page of their new web site.
It plainly isn't anywhere on the WCP network, and possibly not even in the UK.
There is no fence between the (unelectrified) single track and the adjacent road!
It will probably just be the web site they used for the bid material.

It will just be a stock photo, probably supplied by the web developer, kind of like what you can find here.

 

[krus_aragon]

Here's an attempt to work out what needs to be done to deliver all the improvements listed for North Wales. Taking the DfT's summary at face value, we have:

• new direct connectivity to London, with a direct journey to and from London Euston Monday to Saturday from December 2022 (for Gobowen)
  • Extend the existing daily Wrexham trains. Morning ECS working from Crewe would need to depart ~40 minutes earlier, and evening ECS would get back later.
• later last trains to London Euston Monday to Friday by December 2020 (for Llandudno Jn, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl)
  • Current last eastbound VT train for these stations is the 20:20 ex-Bangor to Birmingham New St. This also calls at Prestatyn, Flint and Chester, and they're not getting a later last train, so it's unlikely that this service is being extended to London.
  • Chester's last service to London departs at 19:35, formed from a unit detached from the 17:10 ex-Euston. If the 1610 were worked by two units, and dropped a unit at Llandudno Jn (at 19:00) it could just make it to Chester for 19:35 if it only stopped at Colwyn Bay and Rhyl. Alternatives could include the 15:10 ex-Euston (that currently terminates at Chester) working through to Llandudno Jn, or similar.
• one additional direct journey to and from London Euston per day on Saturdays during the summer months from May 2021 (Llandudno Jn, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn), new direct connectivity to London in the summer months from May 2021 (Llandudno, Deganwy)
  • Presumably an extension of a service that currently terminates at Chester. Extending the 08:10 from Euston (arr LLD ~12:20), and a ~13:20 return departure (arr EUS 16:36) would avoid conflicts with existing trains to/from Holyhead.
• earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays by December 2022 (Llandudno Jn, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl)
  • Current first train to Euston starts at Chester at 07:17, but arrives ECS at 06:20 from Crewe. An earlier start for the ECS could see it run to Llandudno Jn, for a ~06:20 departure, picking up the 07:17's path to London.
  • At present, the 18:10 ex-Euston terminates at Chester at 20:08. Extending it to Llandudno Jn would be straight-forward. Could stable overnight at Llandudno Jn.
  • (If this is meant to be read "earlier and later trains both ways", there'd be two more services to account for)
• earlier first trains from London Euston and later last trains to London Euston on Sundays from December 2022 (Llandudno Jn, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl)
  • First arrival in Chester from Euston is at 17:10(!), but the first train to continue beyond Chester is two hours later. Extend the 17:10 to Llandudno Jn, and its return working would also form a "later last train" than the existing 13:55 from Holyhead.
• earlier first trains and later last trains to and from London Euston on Saturdays and Sundays by December 2022 (Chester)
  • If there's an earlier ECS working from Crewe heading to Llandudno Jn (see above) it could drop a unit off at Chester on the way, for a first train one hour earlier than the current timetable (which would now be operated through from Llandudno Jn). A later Saturday train implies a new 19:10 from Euston, and the Sunday train would be a 20:10 departure.
  • (If this is meant to be read "earlier and later trains both ways", there'd be two more services to account for)

It's notable that there's nothing to crow about at Holyhead, Bangor and Flint other than the new trains replacing the Voyagers. I assume therefore that none of the extra trains above extend beyond Llandudno Jn, and none of them will call at Flint either.

 

[mmh]

Pendolinos have had a mid-life repaint only apart from some carpets. So will need doing fully on the interior.

That's not correct, they have been refurbished, just into pretty much identical as they were new.

Refurbishment doesn't need to imply any colour or layout changes. They're nearly 20 years old, if they hadn't been touched you'd know about it!

 

[driver_m]

No, the 390s have had some major work internally including lighting and new wifi.
Coach G (1st class) in 9-car sets has also been reconfigured as coach F (standard), with new seats.
Plus I think toilet upgrades.
Much more than an external repaint.

Somewhere it says Voyagers will get a refurb and I imagine that job will be the first, as they are in greater need than the 390s.

Err, before you start telling one of my colleagues who drives them that he’s wrong, I’d just point out to you that the pendo repaint has definitely NOT finished, New lighting was replacement of Halogen with LED, not exactly a major strip out. The work that has been done has been a standard upgrade that would occur during any cycle of refurbishment. They’ve had many add ins and single item fixes such as the doors or the toilets. But The 390s are due a mid life overhaul, as are the 221s. I’d also point out that the Voyager repaint was and still is a one off. That was done by the lessor to showcase what could be done. The only thing being currently done to 221s is to extend the Beam and WiFi functionality to them what’s already on a 390.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some of what is posted above is hopes and/or guesswork. Personally, apart from the hard seats, I would be happy to see electric & bi-mode versions of the Class 800 - 803 series on the WCML - provided they are decent length trains. With SDO available, there is no need for train length to coincide with the lengths of the shortest station platforms that would be served. So, I would hope that the bi-modes should be at least 7 or 8 coaches (with no more than one 1st Class coach), and the electrics should be 11 coaches (with no more than two 1st Class coaches.)

Tilt on the electrics would be preferable - but not essential. Except over very long point to point sections, there is rarely more than 1-2 minutes difference between the times obtainable with Classes 390, 350 or 221.

 

[EE Andy b1]

No, the 390s have had some major work internally including lighting and new wifi.
Coach G (1st class) in 9-car sets has also been reconfigured as coach F (standard), with new seats.
Plus I think toilet upgrades.
Much more than an external repaint.

Somewhere it says Voyagers will get a refurb and I imagine that job will be the first, as they are in greater need than the 390s.

Yes your right the 21 9 car Class 390s did have a conversion of coach G First to coach F standard a few years back now and finished in 2015.

Well if they don't start soon when will it happen because as i said there is plenty to be happening in a few years time with other traction.

Not sure about the 221s as there to be moved on in 3 years time so unless the Rolling stock company has the work done why would First/Trenitalia want to pay for a full refit, but they do need it, inside and out.

Until First/Trenitalias future plans come out in detail, who knows for sure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Err, before you start telling one of my colleagues who drives them that he’s wrong, I’d just point out to you that the pendo repaint has definitely NOT finished, New lighting was replacement of Halogen with LED, not exactly a major strip out. The work that has been done has been a standard upgrade that would occur during any cycle of refurbishment. They’ve had many add ins and single item fixes such as the doors or the toilets. But The 390s are due a mid life overhaul, as are the 221s. I’d also point out that the Voyager repaint was and still is a one off. That was done by the lessor to showcase what could be done. The only thing being currently done to 221s is to extend the Beam and WiFi functionality to them what’s already on a 390.

Well that's me told.
I was only going on what I see from using the trains, and the various PR stuff put out by Virgin and Alstom.
It sounded a bigger job than you describe.

 

[driver_m]

Acceleration is key to keeping time. The 390s when first introduced were ridiculously early when running on 87 timings and limited to 110 non tilt. The fact they were 8 car significantly helped. So maybe it’s possible to run a decent all 110 timetable with a few improvements made in certain places as long as the train has got excellent acceleration, better even than a 350, and not lose much time at all. Add a few grade separated junctions at Ledburn/Bourne End and you could feasibly get rid of tilt at the southern end. But it would be tight and expensive for little gain save maintenance.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Err, before you start

Thanks @driver_m

Well that's me told.
I was only going on what I see from using the trains, and the various PR stuff put out by Virgin and Alstom.
It sounded a bigger job than you describe.

We do look after one another in this TOC!

Virgin spin maybe, maybe not.

 

[driver_m]

Well that's me told.
I was only going on what I see from using the trains, and the various PR stuff put out by Virgin and Alstom.
It sounded a bigger job than you describe.

look at it this way. Take set 50 or 02 as examples. They were among the last 9 cars to enter service of the original batch. What is fundamentally different about them now from when introduced? They tilted, ran as 9 cars, still do and bar the colour and coach F. Essentially are the same thing.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Acceleration is key to keeping time. The 390s when first introduced were ridiculously early when running on 87 timings and limited to 110 non tilt. The fact they were 8 car significantly helped. So maybe it’s possible to run a decent all 110 timetable with a few improvements made in certain places as long as the train has got excellent acceleration, better even than a 350, and not lose much time at all. Add a few grade separated junctions at Ledburn/Bourne End and you could feasibly get rid of tilt at the southern end. But it would be tight and expensive for little gain save maintenance.

That would make sense at a price as you say, but when (if) HS2 comes in i think as someone said earlier South of Crewe would probably return to being a 110 mph railway with freed up pathing because most of our (WCP) trains for the Midland/North West and beyond will go down and up HS2.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

- Bit similar to the name of an existing company!
https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/
https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk

 

[PR1Berske]

Maybe but it's a far easier name to pronounce and to use then London Midland and Scottish, LMS or any other awful names and will differentiate from Virgin after all because Virgin thought it was a great idea when they operated both Virgin West Coast and Virgin East Coast not to differentiate between the two later on, people those days still think that Virgin Trains still run trains on the ECML.

A complete break is what is needed and West Coast Rail is a clean yet stylish brand that they can use plus it describes the West Coast pretty well.

That or just call it InterCity West Coast and be done with it!

All speculation and guesswork. The brand name has not yet been revealed.

 

[Darandio]

- Bit similar to the name of an existing company!
https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/
https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk

It isn't because there isn't a name yet.