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West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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mirodo

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I don't know where they found the piece of track for the picture on the front page of their new web site.
It plainly isn't anywhere on the WCP network, and possibly not even in the UK.
There is no fence between the (unelectrified) single track and the adjacent road!
It will probably just be the web site they used for the bid material.

Stock image, as others have said. Supplied by Getty Images, taken in Bavaria.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...inst-cloudy-sky-royalty-free-image/1126385830
 

transmanche

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The East Coast mark 4 coaches had flip-down seats in the vestibules, that provided a little extra capacity at a crunch.

GNER got rid of them under the Mallard refurbishment programme and replaced them with a perch bench that was designed that you couldn't sit on it but could lean against it and people say GNER were a great operator?
I thought that the flip-down seats were in the carriages' crumple zone. And after the Hatfield and Selby crashes, it was decided to err on the side of caution and remove seating from the crumple zones as part of the refurbishment programme. (The perch benches are not in the crumple zone.)
 

Hadders

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Virgin have been a competent operator and I'll be sorry to see them finish.

Will the on-line booking engine be Atos Webtis as used by first or the error-ridden system used by Trentitalia owned c2c?
Admin fee on ticket amendments to go - does this hide a desire to get rid of the walk on railway? Remember this has all been discussed with Williams.
Will additional seats be at the expense of the shop?
 

Skimble19

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Horizon Trains :D
This is what the branding for Horizon Trains would have looked like, had it happened. Interestingly there’s a mock-up of the 390 refurbishment they planned at the time. It’ll be interesting to see how this all compares to what happens this time - sadly I suspect we’ll end up with something rather dull and old fashioned like EMR/GWR but let’s wait and see, they might do a TPE and liven it up..

http://www.whataloadoftosh.com/projects/Horizon-Trains
 

Aictos

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I thought that the flip-down seats were in the carriages' crumple zone. And after the Hatfield and Selby crashes, it was decided to err on the side of caution and remove seating from the crumple zones as part of the refurbishment programme. (The perch benches are not in the crumple zone.)

Whatever the reason, those fold down seats were far far more comfy to use then the perch bench they decided to replace them with.
 

Aictos

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Probably a health & safety thing?

Though TfW still has flipdown seats in the vestibules which are incredibly uncomfortable (IMO) because your back slides all over the place.

The ones that ICEC had were the opposite, you could actually use them to sit on unlike the bench they were replaced by.
 

Aictos

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The one thing that the Class 390 fleet needs and it is long overdue is power sockets at every seat, I rather that over realigning seats to windows!
 

py_megapixel

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Are they calling it "West Coast Rail" in an attempt to hijack the remaining goodwill and fond memories from "East Coast Trains", mess it (like First usually do - Great Western brand was messed so they rebranded to FGW which was messed so rebranded to GWR and now that is being messed by all the IET problems so what brand next once they run on electric reliably?) and reduce the public enthusiasm for nationalisation?

The west coast rail partnership website says:
We’re currently developing the new franchise’s brand and hope to be able to announce everything soon, including the new name

The website seems to be named after the franchise title, not the brand.
 

Robertj21a

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Can anyone report what it, apparently, says in The Times (Business Commentary) today about the award ?
 

whhistle

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The extra services to Gobowen (as an extension to the daily Wrexham) and a daily service to Walsall seem a bit random.

Probably a member of the senior management team lives in those places and want a direct service.
Highly unlikely that two managers just happen to live in two obscure places that are accessible by the WCML directly, if a TOC so chooses to run services.

More likely is that Walsall connectivity has been a part of the West Midlands development for a few years now, so why not win some extra points and give it a service to London?
Gobowen is also fairly popular.
 

whhistle

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Hurrah - goodbye and good riddance to beardy Branson.

In an ideal world the new operator would bin the 390s and replace them with comfortably pleasant trains.
Completely pointless, why remove newer modern trains that tilt and have a fast acceleration to replace them with slower trains that cant tilt and have cheap uncomfortable seats
Your response doesn't make sense to what was written.

The user is suggesting replacing the old (by todays standards!) 390s with newer trains.

The user also specified "with comfortably pleasant trains", suggesting seats would be more comfortable than what is currently on offer. You somehow translated that to "cheap uncomfortable seats".
Not sure how.
 

Class 466

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Can anyone report what it, apparently, says in The Times (Business Commentary) today about the award ?

See Below:

Chris Grayling was always going to be a hard act to follow. But how nice to see Grant Shapps giving it a go. The new transport secretary had the choice of handing the west coast rail contract to a deep-pocketed consortium of Hong Kong, Chinese and Spanish train operators — or to a combo 70 per cent-owned by the loss-making First Group. No prizes for guessing which one he picked.

So what better than tossing First another franchise? Not least given all the other carry-ons at this expert in dividend-free trips downhill: a 10 per cent activist investor, Coast Capital, trying to eject most of the board; a recently ousted chairman; net debts of £903 million, not far off the group’s £1.4 billion market value; and some vague break-up strategy. It was only at May’s results, too, that First declared: “The landscape of UK rail is challenging and we have concerns with the current balance of risk and reward being offered.”

So it’s a bit bizarre that Mr Shapps should think First and its Italian ally Trenitalia are a better bet than an MTR-led trio to run such a key service: the London to Scotland line due to incorporate HS2. Apparently, the west coast marks the birth of a new “partnership model”. And one approved by no less than Keith Williams, the ex-British Airways boss whose rail review is yet to see the light of day. But there’s a real lack of detail, even if First boss Matthew Gregory says the terms address his “risk/reward concerns”.

The Anglo-Italian combo have promised to pay £1.6 billion by 2026 to run the service — before it turns into a low-margin management contract for the arrival of HS2. On £1.3 billion revenues a year, it should generate about £50 million ebitda. And assumptions are underpinned by the forecast revenue mechanism. It involves an annual review of revenues. If they’re more than 4 per cent above or below forecasts, there’s an 80 per cent revenue share with the government.

Mr Gregory says the same terms would turn South Western and Trans Pennine into profitable contracts. And he should know: he signed off the overpriced bids as First finance chief. Still, time may yet prove he’s struck a brilliant west coast deal at a time of maximum chaos in Mr Shapps’s department — not that the shares, down 0.35 per cent to 114½p, gave much away.

Even so, if the terms are that good, including over pension risk, it’s odd that the incumbent — the Virgin/Stagecoach duo — got their bid declared “non-compliant”: the reason they’re suing the transport department. Say their legal action exposes sweetheart terms for First? The deal could yet be derailed — just like 2012’s. Mr Shapps risks looking a fool, too, if First finds it can’t pay the £2.6 billion it pledged to run South Western. And how come he cancelled the Southeastern bid last week, citing the Williams review, if he’s perfectly happy to let the west coast contract? It’s almost as if Mr Grayling’s still in charge.
 

whhistle

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And yet the 1 reason London northeastern railway is announced as LNER is to avoid confusion with LNR
But LNR doesn't exist?
If you're referring to LNWR (giving you the benefit of the doubt as both terms are somewhat interchangeable now), it still wouldn't matter as they operate from two separate stations in London.

Could you state your source for "the one reason..."?
 

RealTrains07

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But LNR doesn't exist?
If you're referring to LNWR (giving you the benefit of the doubt as both terms are somewhat interchangeable now), it still wouldn't matter as they operate from two separate stations in London.

Could you state your source for "the one reason..."?
Still recognised by people as the same name and same company although not all do.

People do get confused between the two which has already been said earlier in the thread
 

Red1980

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whereas i hope they take the current seats in the Pendolino, rip out the seats, throw them in the bin and replace them with seats that have been designed with actual humans in mind.



perhaps things are still in discussion and any announcement is being held for a convenient time. Why do posters here always see a conspiracy?



more worried about what benefit us in scum class receive. Here is a hint: nowt.

Why would they!? The "human beings"( and I use that term loosely) that they have to think about do nothing but put their feet, luggage, rubbish,puke, urine, faeces and food spillages all over them anyway! I don't know why any TOC would spend money on new equipment given what the British travelling public are like!
 

StaffsWCML

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Your response doesn't make sense to what was written.

The user is suggesting replacing the old (by todays standards!) 390s with newer trains.

The user also specified "with comfortably pleasant trains", suggesting seats would be more comfortable than what is currently on offer. You somehow translated that to "cheap uncomfortable seats".
Not sure how.

Again I have to ask the question. Which modern high speed train procured by the DfT is better more comfortable than a 390?

Taking the older BR stuff out of the equation and the networkers, there are not any better more comfortable trains. The class 800s that First use are horrific, worse than the Voyagers IMO.
 

Aictos

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The Class 800s are far better in every way then the HSTs which should be consigned to Booths end of!
 
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This is what the branding for Horizon Trains would have looked like, had it happened. Interestingly there’s a mock-up of the 390 refurbishment they planned at the time. It’ll be interesting to see how this all compares to what happens this time - sadly I suspect we’ll end up with something rather dull and old fashioned like EMR/GWR but let’s wait and see, they might do a TPE and liven it up..

http://www.whataloadoftosh.com/projects/Horizon-Trains
Has a very Natwest feel about it colour and font wise....
 
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So we can expect the keys handed back by the end of 2021 then . Their financial position is shocking. Im wondering is First too important to fail for the UK with it being a major transport provider all over ? and is this deal supposed to chuck them a lifeline through the back door?
 

transmanche

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Whatever the reason, those fold down seats were far far more comfy to use then the perch bench they decided to replace them with.
Yes, you have told us. Repeatedly.

You seem to think it was a malicious decision by GNER who were solely intent in causing discomfort to your rear end; rather than a pragmatic decision to minimise the chance of passengers being crushed in an accident, doubtless accompanied by tabloid headlines of "Death Seats"!
 

Journeyman

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So we can expect the keys handed back by the end of 2021 then . Their financial position is shocking. Im wondering is First too important to fail for the UK with it being a major transport provider all over ? and is this deal supposed to chuck them a lifeline through the back door?

You do have to wonder. The main reason why First's previous bid was considered dodgy was the loading of premium payments towards the end of the franchise, making it a cash cow in the early years, and far too cheap and easy for them to walk away part way through without much of a financial penalty.

First's position in 2019 is far worse than it was in 2012, and I'd say there's a strong risk of the company being broken up and sold. Unless, of course, this somehow turns everything around, but I won't hold my breath.
 

whhistle

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The wi-fi you mean? At least one page on the Virgin website still states it's paid for in second class, maybe First read that?
Or maybe when the bid was put together Virgin still charged?

People find any way to twist stuff and hate.

Read many comments saying "under-whelming" and such. What did the inspectorate of this forum expect given the EU situation, a brand new thing called "partnership" and all the questions that come with that, or the fact all companies are looking to save money here and there?

I bet even if it was a total stock replacement, people would still moan and call under-whelming.
 

whhistle

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It's got to the point where the majority of franchises in the country are run by First/Trenitalia and Abellio.
Wasn't it like that with National Express all those years ago?
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
First them, Stagecoach disappearing, First not bidding for any other franchises.
Next decade, it could be Abellio's turn.
 

pdeaves

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Again I have to ask the question. Which modern high speed train procured by the DfT is better more comfortable than a 390?
Not necessarily any of them, but new designs are under development all the time. The original post that spawned this sub discussion spoke of replacing existing trains with an alternative design. That hypothetical alternative may not exist yet until the hypothetical order is placed with a hypothetical specification. That does not have to match an existing product in any way and does not necessarily have to be DfT-specified (plenty of trains aren't).
 

LNW-GW Joint

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So we can expect the keys handed back by the end of 2021 then . Their financial position is shocking. Im wondering is First too important to fail for the UK with it being a major transport provider all over ? and is this deal supposed to chuck them a lifeline through the back door?

I was just reading that First Group has taken on David Martin as Chairman.
He was the Chief Executive of Arriva at the time it was acquired by DB, up to 2016.
Arriva itself is of course up for sale.
David Martin was apparently the choice of the activist First Group shareholder Coast Capital.
 
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BeHereNow

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Have to agree regarding it seeming like a lifeline to a struggling “industry partner”, given the issues at SWR and public threat of legal action. I had thought GWR was already there as that lifeline though, given that was the one balancing the books for First Rail.

It will be interesting to see whether DfT changes its management approach on the other First TOCs.
 

Camden

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Isn't it the case that the paths on the Chester to Wrexham line are extremely limited, and highly sought after for future services to Liverpool & Manchester?

It feels wrong to clog it up with a London service which could go south from Wrexham instead.
 

StaffsWCML

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Wasn't it like that with National Express all those years ago?
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
First them, Stagecoach disappearing, First not bidding for any other franchises.
Next decade, it could be Abellio's turn.

Lets hope so. Absolutely tragic company. The sooner their demise comes the better.
 

StaffsWCML

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You do have to wonder. The main reason why First's previous bid was considered dodgy was the loading of premium payments towards the end of the franchise, making it a cash cow in the early years, and far too cheap and easy for them to walk away part way through without much of a financial penalty.

First's position in 2019 is far worse than it was in 2012, and I'd say there's a strong risk of the company being broken up and sold. Unless, of course, this somehow turns everything around, but I won't hold my breath.

They could turn it around, the West Coast is very profitable if they run it well.

To continue to run it well, it is imperative that they keep the current structure and management in place from Virgin as they know what they are doing. Unfortunately I fear for some of the roles in Birmingham and Crewe, I fear a parachuting in of the current First Management who have failed to deliver time and time again, but time will tell.

If they take that approach they will fail, they will lose customers and they will most likely hand back the contract. Hopefully DfT will then learn a valuable lesson, trouble is by that point the only bidders will probably be even more incompetent risk taking entities.
 
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