West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by 4-SUB 4732, 12 Aug 2019.

  1. Birkonian

    Birkonian Member

    Messages:
    40
    Joined:
    19 Sep 2017
    I've just booked 1st class to London return for 10th and 16th December. I do this trip every year and Advance prices from Liverpool have gone up by quite an amount. I've had to re-route via Chester to get anything like a reasonable price. The return leg is much dearer than last year.
     
  2. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,282
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    They do, in general.
    The company names and trade marks can of course be sold or licensed by the DfT
    I'm sure some have been licensed already - eg LNWR for the Arriva Traincare business at Crewe.
    The DfT can also refuse to allow the names to be used if it so chooses.
    First Trenitalia can only acquire those marks with the DfT's approval.
     
  3. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

    Messages:
    5,635
    Joined:
    27 Feb 2011
    Yes, the DfT owns the London, Midland & Scottish and LMS trademarks. Along with a whole host of others such as LNER/London North Eastern Railway, Great Eastern Railway, East Midlands Trains, Stansted Express, Intercity, WAGN and even things such as Silver Standard, Thameslink CityFlier and certain named trains (e.g. The Dorset Scot).
     
  4. rdlover777

    rdlover777 Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    4 Feb 2014
    Location:
    Kent
    but why snap up the rights to long dead company names thou?
     
  5. mirodo

    mirodo Member

    Messages:
    498
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2011
    To allow them to be used in future franchise awards where the DfT can specify the franchise name to be used.
     
  6. rdlover777

    rdlover777 Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    4 Feb 2014
    Location:
    Kent
    so does DfT also owns the names of former franchises like GNER, Silverlink, FGER, etc?
     
  7. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,613
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    Thing is, the minimum spec calling pattern in the invitation to tender was that specific, that nothing radical is likely to vere off from the very high frequency timetable anyway. It's as specific as X times trains per hour must call at X station, X trains a day minimum, and X between X and X times.
    Ok so a few extra services could be planned for say next December, like the extra North Wales services and Gobowen etc, but I don't know whether I'd expect the second Liverpool next December? Will the 23 replacement trains provide a lot of extra set availability after delivery compared to today with the 221s?

    Don't forget as well that Grand Central have had their plans approved based on slots in the existing very high frequency timetable. So I wouldn't expect drastic changes as the ORR and Network Rail presumably envisaged the hourly times to remain broadly the same to be able to grant those paths for the coming years.

    Out of interest with the second Liverpool being 'subject to ORR approval', does that mean the Liverpool is a sort of stand alone open access proposal but applied for by the franchise itself?
     
  8. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,852
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    There's a lot we don't know about them yet: we don't even know how long they'll be (though it seems they'd have to be a similar length to the Voyagers in order to work the current timetable's splits and joins).
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,073
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    They don't have to "snap them up", they own them via owning what was BR.
     
  10. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,852
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Though according to the dates on the trademark website, several of them were registered in the post-privatisation era (suggesting that BR didn't keep them registered all along the decades).
     
  11. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

    Messages:
    5,635
    Joined:
    27 Feb 2011
    See post #693.
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,073
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    One does not have to register a trademark for it to be one's trademark. It just gives extra protection.
     
  13. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

    Messages:
    4,673
    Joined:
    30 Jan 2013
    I would have thought the Goods Description legislation would prevent it? After all, one is selling a service that won't exist or that Virgin cannot provide? Surely, they have to hand over that revenue to the successor?
     
  14. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,852
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    One would expect, but they'll presumably get to keep the ticket retailer's portion of the ticket price.
     
  15. HH

    HH Established Member

    Messages:
    4,048
    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Location:
    Essex
    But the service will exist; the incoming TOC is stuck with the current timetable until at least the next timetable change.
     
  16. Mogz

    Mogz Member

    Messages:
    60
    Joined:
    20 May 2019
    It’s going to be LMS, isn’t it?


    Trademark registered by DfT around the same time as LNER...

    It’s got to be LMS!
     
  17. Metal_gee_man

    Metal_gee_man Member

    Messages:
    260
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2017
    Whilst I accept the peak service and the off peak general service from Euston is more than acceptable, I'm failing to notice any reasonable adjustments to later night services from London.
    We've all seen the news reports claiming the last train to Liverpool or Manchester after an FA Cup match at Wembley or an away game is too early
    Weekdays the last Liverpool service is 21.07 and on Sat is 20.11 and Sun 21.22 which are far too early
    Manchester is slightly better 23.00 on weekdays, 21.01 on Sat and 21.51 on Sun
    Again too early!
    Are the TOCs frightened of having displaced crew from e.g London stuck in Manchester or Liverpool for 3 hours until the morning services or do they believe people don't travel that time of night!
     
  18. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    42,073
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    The 2300 would be a drunken meat market on a Saturday, I'd figure they are rationally afraid of that.
     
  19. Metal_gee_man

    Metal_gee_man Member

    Messages:
    260
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2017
    I can understand that, but dry trains after 9pm and just let them sleep it off, either that or make use of LNWRs 350s and send those semi express to limit spoiling a nice train (390)
     
  20. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,613
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    Engineering blockades can start early Saturday nights. The Trent Valley is often red signals before 2230.
     
    Last edited: 3 Sep 2019
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    43,690
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire

    Just a reminder that if anyone has any ideas, we do welcome these in the Speculative Ideas section.

    Can we please try to stick to what is actually happening with this franchise award in this thread.

    Also if anyone wishes to go into detail on any aspect, e.g..timetabling, trains etc this is best posted as a new thread in an appropriate area (which would normally be speculative ideas if it is speculative in nature); this thread is already 710 pages long and it's generally best to keep threads reasonably topical rather than try to cram lots of different areas of discussion into one thread. The forum has plenty of capacity for threads so there is no need to wedge everything on one thread ;)

    Thanks!
     
  22. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,225
    Joined:
    1 Mar 2014
    I would hope the 22:00 Euston to Crewe could be extended to Liverpool as a quick win - though it might not serve Runcorn so it could be diverted non-stop via Warrington Bank Quay for engineering works - similar to the 23:30 Kings Cross to Leeds.
     
  23. TrainfanBen

    TrainfanBen Member

    Messages:
    192
    Joined:
    30 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Coventry.
    Well said, and in any case people will have to adapt and make the most of whatever First eventually offer.

    Although more discount advances would be great)
     
  24. Andrew*Debbie

    Andrew*Debbie Member

    Messages:
    108
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2017
    Location:
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyll ...
    My recent experiences is the trains are clearly deteriorating to where they were a year ago. Virgin / Stagecoach are probably doing the bare minimum repairs. I don't see any other changes in staff, service or food.




    I agree on a) b ?? I think we will see significant changes in both the short and longer term. First Group's press release promises "household brands" and "household names". Virgin offer to specialty and charity brands along with a smaller number of national brand items. I also expect the shops to disappear as trains are replaced or refurbished. 25,000 new Pendolino seats implies converting the shop to seating.


    https://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/westcoastpartnership.aspx
    https://www.westcoastrail.co.uk/plan.html
     
  25. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

    Messages:
    3,021
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2015
    We have been told on here that the maintenance staff at Longsight have been significantly reduced in number in order to try to reduce the costs ahead of a new franchise award. I can't understand why. If you need to maintain a train then it takes what it takes. Cut the staff and it will start to fall apart.
    I have been in the position of saying to managers "Which bit of what we used to do shall we not do now, then?" I usually got a slimy evasive reply, and didn't hesitate to document what hadn't been done because of staff shortage (just not enough time to do what needed doing, and no overtime authorised - or even wanted.)
     
  26. EE Andy b1

    EE Andy b1 Member

    Messages:
    960
    Joined:
    12 Dec 2013
    Location:
    CLC
    Because ALSTOM want to make sure it's them that wins the new maintenance contract for the Class 390 for the next 20 years when it comes up for renewal in the next couple of years, so keep it as cheap as they can get away with.
    A lot of good railwaymen lost again.

    I hope First Trenitalia expect a high standard of maintenance for West Coast rolling stock.!! Once again time will tell, and if not the service will suffer.

    Can't wait to see what the full Class 390 refurbishment to "as new" will be like. It will be a big mistake if they remove the shop and downgrade the catering. Just a trolley service for standard class is not good enough. Let it not end up like GWR.
     
  27. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

    Messages:
    3,021
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2015
    Let's hope that when the sets fail in traffic all the delay repay (and Network disruption charges) get posted straight to their letterbox then - and that it comes out of their Directors' remuneration, not out of wages or shareholder returns (which is the current pattern.)
     
  28. greaterwest

    greaterwest Member

    Messages:
    1,011
    Joined:
    23 Nov 2014
    That's what First did with the Class 444 Desiro units, they removed the little-used shop and changed the catering supplier, rather than actually putting the static shop area to good use.
     
  29. M60lad

    M60lad Member

    Messages:
    407
    Joined:
    31 May 2011
    Hope they don't remove the shop from Pendalino's especially as it will mean an end to the famous weekend announcements by Poetry Patrick if he still works weekends onboard these days.
     
  30. StaffsWCML

    StaffsWCML Member

    Messages:
    221
    Joined:
    10 Apr 2019
    I would imagine the shop is going and would have done in most bids. I suspect the majority would have planned some kind of app based at seat service. Doing that a busy times may prove somewhat difficult though.
     

Share This Page