West Coast Railway Co Carnforth.

[swanhill41]

Amongst all the rumours read the Heritage Railways,there has been no mention of an operation that is linked to them in that they trade on railway nostalgia.
I refer to the above company...They have at present no income coming in ,as their main business is carrying passengers using in the main their own locos ,in the main steam.
It looks as though the Jacobite service in Scotland for 2020 is a probable non starter....This is a big income stream for them I believe.
Their reliance on the enthusiast market and allied tourist market,which are not likely to exsist much in 2020,could be a turning point for them...Its a private company,so
how deep are the owners pockets,as opposed to the deep pockets of Mr Hoskins/Locomotive Services Ltd.
Any thoughts ?

 

[31160]

As you say they are a private company, they are not a preservation society. If they go under all the kit will be sold off to whoever, having travelled on WCRC more than a few times and seen the state of the inside of the coaches they might well be cared for better than they are currently, and tbh their track record on safety is very well known, so to wrap up whatever

 

[Iskra]

They are still able to take bookings and if they are offering vouchers instead of refunds like many tourist operations, that could assist them?

Whether you like them or not they are a big part of the mainline heritage rail sector and I hope they pull through.

As you say they are a private company, they are not a preservation society. If they go under all the kit will be sold off to whoever, having travelled on WCRC more than a few times and seen the state of the inside of the coaches they might well be cared for better than they are currently, and tbh their track record on safety is very well known, so to wrap up whatever

I have noticed that the quality of their operation varies widely depending on which of their depots the stock and traction comes from; from Carnforth everything seems good.

 

[pdeaves]

I think West Coast do more than heritage stuff (stock moves, route conducting, that sort of thing) but that is't apparent on their website. That wouldn't compensate fully for the loss of charter market but might keep the wolves at bay.

 

[Iskra]

Also, rather than going under, looking at the size of their collection I think all they would do is sell off a couple of loco's and that would probably solve their problems.

 

[alexl92]

Given the size of their fleet, the company and/or Mr Smith must have deep pockets. Plus they recently bought 86401 I believe, so they're not short of cash.

 

[JonathanH]

Also, rather than going under, looking at the size of their collection I think all they would do is sell off a couple of loco's and that would probably solve their problems.

I doubt there is much of a market for their locomotives or stock above its scrap value. Some of it is kept for spares anyway.

One aspect of the viability of their business is the preparation for the end of the derogation for their rolling stock in 31 March 2023. Losing revenue now makes it less likely they will be able to afford the work needed.

 

[Iskra]

I doubt there is much of a market for their locomotives or stock above its scrap value. Some of it is kept for spares anyway.

One aspect of the viability of their business is the preparation for the end of the derogation for their rolling stock in 31 March 2023. Losing revenue now makes it less likely they will be able to afford the work needed.

Working mainline steam engines are extremely valuable.

 

[JonathanH]

Working mainline steam engines are extremely valuable.

Only in circumstances where they have an operational future. They have more value with West Coast Railways than they do in somebody's back garden.

If recreational railway travel is a thing of the past or the boiler ticket expires before it can restart, the locomotives pretty much have no value.

 

[Iskra]

Only in circumstances where they have an operational future. They have more value with West Coast Railways than they do in somebody's back garden.

If recreational railway travel is a thing of the past or the boiler ticket expires before it can restart, the locomotives pretty much have no value.

Yes, and the steam locomotives WCRC operate are all in revenue-earning service, thus have operational value. Take a look at the figures they change hands for. Obviously their value decreases when they are due a heavy overhaul or expired, but even small ones still change hands for 7-figure sums.

 

[fgwrich]

Yes, and the steam locomotives WCRC operate are all in revenue-earning service, thus have operational value. Take a look at the figures they change hands for. Obviously their value decreases when they are due a heavy overhaul or expired, but even small ones still change hands for 7-figure sums.

*Almost all of them are in revenue earning service except for one particular loco, which is possibly one of their biggest earners now - Former Class 5972 Olton Hall is currently leased to Warner Brothers and is on display at the Harry Potter Studio Tour at Leavesden. That's due to stay there until it's lease expires and when Mr Smith want's it running again (and will need recertification). Either way, I rather bet that's making them a pretty penny!

 

[randyrippley]

If they go bust then maybe a scrappie will be finally able to clear the Carnforth site of all the derelict junk thats dumped there.
For the locals, living next to a railway is one thing, living next to a junkyard is something else

 

[xotGD]

With WCRC I can travel up Airedale behind a pair of 37s for a tenner. They can do no wrong.

 

[Iskra]

With WCRC I can travel up Airedale behind a pair of 37s for a tenner. They can do no wrong.

Can you explain, do they do part fares on their summer routes?

 

[swanhill41]

If they go bust then maybe a scrappie will be finally able to clear the Carnforth site of all the derelict junk thats dumped there.
For the locals, living next to a railway is one thing, living next to a junkyard is something else
[/Q
The location is relatively local to me

I visit Carnforth quite regularly and must agree looking over at the location from railway bridge over WCML,always feel they have far too much stock around.
Sometimes I feel they use the carriages in particular as spares?

 

[DarloRich]

Amongst all the rumours read the Heritage Railways,there has been no mention of an operation that is linked to them in that they trade on railway nostalgia.
I refer to the above company...They have at present no income coming in ,as their main business is carrying passengers using in the main their own locos ,in the main steam.
It looks as though the Jacobite service in Scotland for 2020 is a probable non starter....This is a big income stream for them I believe.
Their reliance on the enthusiast market and allied tourist market,which are not likely to exsist much in 2020,could be a turning point for them...Its a private company,so
how deep are the owners pockets,as opposed to the deep pockets of Mr Hoskins/Locomotive Services Ltd.
Any thoughts ?

They do more than run tours although that will be their main income source. Also I wonder what their actual outgoings are? Do you need to spend money on a steam loco that inst moving? What terms are their staff on?

With WCRC I can travel up Airedale behind a pair of 37s for a tenner. They can do no wrong.

there might be some people who disagree.

I think West Coast do more than heritage stuff (stock moves, route conducting, that sort of thing) but that is't apparent on their website. That wouldn't compensate fully for the loss of charter market but might keep the wolves at bay.

They do.

I doubt there is much of a market for their locomotives or stock above its scrap value. Some of it is kept for spares anyway.

I suspect that a working, main line certified, steam locomotive might be worth a couple of quid. As will a working diesel?

 

[xotGD]

Can you explain, do they do part fares on their summer routes?

Yes. Get on at Shipley on the return in the evening and do it to Skipton for £10. But be aware that it can run early.

Edit: You can pay on board

 

[Iskra]

Yes. Get on at Shipley on the return in the evening and do it to Skipton for £10. But be aware that it can run early.

Very good, how is that arranged, locally on the day or in advance?

 

[xotGD]

Very good, how is that arranged, locally on the day or in advance?

Pay on the train

 

[JonathanH]

You don't think a working, main line certified, steam locomotive might be worth a couple of quid. What about the same but with the word steam swapped for the word diesel?

The point is that in a "fire sale" caused by the fact that excursion trains can't run, it isn't going to have as much value as it did when a potential purchaser could actually put it to use.

There is no likelihood of using it for running demonstration freight services.

 

[eldomtom2]

Also, rather than going under, looking at the size of their collection I think all they would do is sell off a couple of loco's and that would probably solve their problems.

Aren't all "their" steam locos owned by company owner David Smith rather than WCR itself, though? Could that cause issues?

 

[Iskra]

Aren't all "their" steam locos owned by company owner David Smith rather than WCR itself, though? Could that cause issues?

It could make it simpler. Put the company into administration, clear any debts. Pop up again in 6 months time operating under a new name ‘renting’ the loco’s to the new TOC. Immoral, but not entirely unheard of.

*This is not a suggestion specifically towards the character of the owners of WCRC, just an example of what often happens in business.

 

[swanhill41]

I believe he owns 9 steam locos,and one electric loco...The problem with WCRC is that it is a private company...Whether the fact the locos belong to a separate company I don't know...The problem is that is WCRC a trading company that basically is a profit and loss account for David Smith,with the Locos and other assets in another company...Believe he also has other interests,which I believe maybe farms in Yorkshire...Apologies if wrong.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sometimes I feel they use the carriages in particular as spares?

Correct - There's a quantity of redundant parcels stock, for example, that's there primarily to provide spare bogies and wheelsets to the operational carriage fleet as required.

 

[Worf]

I believe he owns 9 steam locos,and one electric loco...The problem with WCRC is that it is a private company...Whether the fact the locos belong to a separate company I don't know...The problem is that is WCRC a trading company that basically is a profit and loss account for David Smith,with the Locos and other assets in another company...Believe he also has other interests,which I believe maybe farms in Yorkshire...Apologies if wrong.

He also owns Aysgarth station and environs.

 

[theblackwatch]

WCRC is a subsidiary of Steamtown Railway Museum, as is CRRES (Carnforth Railway Restoration & Engineering Services). William Smith (Wakefield) is the ultimate parent company.

Galatea is owned by a charity, the North of England Historic Railway Trust.

 

[DarloRich]

The point is that in a "fire sale" caused by the fact that excursion trains can't run, it isn't going to have as much value as it did when a potential purchaser could actually put it to use.

There is no likelihood of using it for running demonstration freight services.

I could think of several potential purchasers of locomotives who could put them to use today.

 

[alexl92]

To the best of my knowledge:

• Leander is owned by Chris Beet & family, but operated by WCRC.
• 44871 and 45407 are owned by Ian Riley but operated by WCRC on the mainline.
• 45212 is owned by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, maintained for mainline running under contract by Ian Riley and operated by WCRC.
• 62005 is owned by the NELPG and operated by West Coast on the mainline.

I know 48151 is Mr Smith's own engine, and 44767 is owned either by him or by the company, I'm not sure. But effectively all the Jacobite locos aren't owned by him and neither are the Jubilees. Not sure how many others he actually owns.

All the maroon-liveried diesels are theirs but they do occasionally lease others for extra capacity, plus 86259 is owned by Les Ross but used by WCRC for railtours (though I wonder if that will change with the acquisition of 86401).