West Coastway (Havant A Clue How To Improve It?)

[tbtc]

How would you like to organise West Coastway services, given the flat junctions/ competing demands between a variety of places/ fixed number of paths into London etc?

For all of the discussions about minor rural lines (and reconnecting tiny villages etc), we don't discuss busy routes like the West Coastway very often (or, when we do, it's in the context of quirky services like Brighton to Great Malvern or putting Sussex back on the XC "map" rather than day-to-day passengers)

That's a shame, because the West Coastway is a fascinating bit of line - given the different demands spread between London (via Gatwick, via the Arun Valley), Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton and also the two short branches to Littlehampton and Bognor) - the lack of grade separation at junctions, the lack of overtaking facilities - it's quite the conundrum

There's currently (or, at least, pre-Covid, there was - I'll admit I've not kept up to date with the various changes over the past eighteen months) a fairly frequent number of stops at each station - IIRC only a few served by the Littlehampton to Portsmouth stopper had only one train per hour - but not a lot of frequent services (generally a combination of a few hourly services)

It's impossible to link everywhere to everywhere (I don't think there was a direct service from Brighton to Bognor?) - the fact that Brighton/ Littlehampton/ Bognor/ Portsmouth are all dead ends makes it even tougher

At the same time, there's demands for faster services between the bigger places en route (a route like Brighton to Portsmouth is at the kind of 30mph average that is almost NorthernRail-esque in it's low speed) - indicative perhaps of a lack of investment in infrastructure in the south east that doesn't directly involve London journeys (see also how poor the A27/M27 corridor is compared to roads that lead to the capital)

I appreciate that there's possibly an element of there not being huge demand between some similar sized places (whereas a direct service to Gatwick/ London may be more important because that offers something *different*) - I don't want to fall into the trap of assuming that two places within fifty miles of each other "deserve" a frequent train service because I accept that local travel patterns don't always work like that (although, as someone who's spent all of their life living in Central Belt Scotland and Northern England, my only visits to the south coast have been fleeting so I'm not wanting to make the outsider's assumption of "There Should Be A Regular Direct Service Between X And Y Because They Look Close On The Map")

So, what could be done (without breaking the bank)? I know of plans for passing loops in places like the Hope Valley, but are there options for loops on the West Coastway that would allow for increased services/ reduced journey times? Presumably it'd be political suicide to try to remove direct London trains from Littlehampton/ Bognor and replace them with a shuttle between the two towns so that more "big" trains could run between the bigger places? But, if no surgery then do we have to accept that the timetable pattern has to be pretty much set in stone because the infrastructure cannot accommodate anything more (other than tinkering at the edges, e.g. removing the token GWR service to Brighton), since we don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul?

(I've focussed this more on the Brighton - Portsmouth sections as I appreciate that there was a thread about the Southampton end of the route a while ago - although I don't know if locals class the Coastway as running all the way to Southampton?)

 

[HST43257]

2tph Brighton to Hove nonstop, connecting into London service

2tph London Victoria to Littlehampton calling at whichever stations to Preston Park, then Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Littlehampton

2tph Brighton to Littlehampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering and Littlehampton.

2tph Brighton to Bognor Regis calling at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Bognor Regis

1tph Brighton to Portsmouth calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth (both if there’s time to go to Harbour)

1tph Brighton to Southampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton Central

1tph London Victoria to Portsmouth calling at whichever stations to Barnham, then Chichester, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth (both if there’s time to go to Harbour) - Bognor stoppers also part of this service

1tph London Victoria to Southampton calling at whichever stations to Barnham, then Chichester, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton Central - Bognor stoppers also part of this service

2tph Littlehampton to Portsmouth calling at all stations

 

[JonathanH]

I've always considered the current timetable to be a pretty clever and comprehensive offering and probably the best that is going to be achieved within the infrastructure constraints.

The Arun Valley trains offer reasonably quick services to Southampton and Portsmouth, calling only at Horsham, Barnham, Chichester and Havant then stations further west. (The Southampton calls at Southbourne and Emsworth)
The Brighton trains slot in ten minutes ahead and therefore offer a connection at Havant into the opposite destination.
The are good connections from Brighton to Bognor and from Littlehampton west.
There is a train every ten minutes from Brighton to Hove and Worthing (with the change into the Littlehampton service).
The West Worthing train out of Brighton (not running at the moment) calls all stops to West Worthing, connecting into the Portsmouth and Southampton services which follow behind.
The Littlehampton service from Victoria fits in providing a service to the various places along the route from Littlehampton to Hove and then fast to London.

For what it is worth, the Arun Valley train to Southampton provides a good connection into the GWR service to / from Cardiff.

I think the only trains missing from the full timetable at the moment are the West Worthing stoppers with the Brighton to Portsmouth and Southampton trains picking up the stops.

At the same time, there's demands for faster services between the bigger places en route (a route like Brighton to Portsmouth is at the kind of 30mph average that is almost NorthernRail-esque in it's low speed) - indicative perhaps of a lack of investment in infrastructure in the south east that doesn't directly involve London journeys (see also how poor the A27/M27 corridor is compared to roads that lead to the capital)

In principle, the only issue with the A27 / M27 is the controversial missing bit around Arundel and its passage through Worthing and Lancing. The A31/M27/A27 is otherwise dual carriageway all the way from Lewes to Poole.

New A27 Arundel bypass avoids national park

The planned A27 Arundel bypass is "long overdue", the transport secretary Grant Shapps says.

www.bbc.co.uk

The route of a controversial bypass in West Sussex has been announced by Highways England.
Five of the six options for the A27 near Arundel would have involved building new roads in the South Downs National Park.
Highways England says the preferred route goes south of the national park and will protect the environment.
But the countryside charity CPRE Sussex said it was "appalled" by the decision to build the road.

So, what could be done (without breaking the bank)? I know of plans for passing loops in places like the Hope Valley, but are there options for loops on the West Coastway that would allow for increased services/ reduced journey times? Presumably it'd be political suicide to try to remove direct London trains from Littlehampton/ Bognor and replace them with a shuttle between the two towns so that more "big" trains could run between the bigger places? But, if no surgery then do we have to accept that the timetable pattern has to be pretty much set in stone because the infrastructure cannot accommodate anything more (other than tinkering at the edges, e.g. removing the token GWR service to Brighton), since we don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul?

Nothing can or will be done on this route, certainly not any time soon.

It was touched on in a thread at the end of last year https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-coastway-line-enhancements.212498/

The only thing really missing is faster trains between Brighton and Portsmouth and between Brighton and Southampton but realistically with loads of level crossings, built up areas and local connectivity requirements, speeding up the route is near impossible.

2tph Brighton to Littlehampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering and Littlehampton.

2tph Brighton to Bognor Regis calling at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Bognor Regis

I don't think there is capacity for this, or really even a need. It makes sense for the slow from Brighton to terminate at West Worthing because that is how the track layout works. Admittedly, passengers for Littlehampton and Bognor have to change but get quicker journeys overall.

1tph Brighton to Portsmouth calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth (both if there’s time to go to Harbour)

1tph Brighton to Southampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton Central

Why would these call all stations to Worthing? They do at the moment but that is because the West Worthing service isn't running. They are already slow.

Otherwise you have pretty much just described the current service.

 

[Bald Rick]

2tph Brighton to Hove nonstop, connecting into London service

Pretty difficult for this not to be non-stop

2tph London Victoria to Littlehampton calling at whichever stations to Preston Park, then Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Littlehampton

2tph Brighton to Littlehampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering and Littlehampton.

2tph Brighton to Bognor Regis calling at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Bognor Regis

1tph Brighton to Portsmouth calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth (both if there’s time to go to Harbour)

1tph Brighton to Southampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton Central

Do have a go at Timetabling this, and come back to us with your findings.

 

[Starmill]

I would start by abandoning completely all of the diesel trains east of Southampton Central. They are slow, under-capacity, and a performance risk. The through traffic between destinations west of Southampton and Portsmouth / Brighton doesn't justify these.

I would try to provide a service as similar to the 2019 one as possible, but with careful attention paid to journey times between Brighton and Havant. If a half-hourly semi fast service were genuinely feasible then one to Portsmouth and one to Southampton would be making best use of limited resources. It would be ideal to offer eight coaches on all of these. It'd be brutal on local stations and people from Brighton and Portsmouth who want to go to Salisbury and Bath would no doubt be furious. But these kinds of very tough decisions are exactly what we've been avoiding for years. We should do so no longer.

A few key infrastructure questions would be how much power supply is there and how much might it cost to increase it? How many platforms aren't long enough for eight cars where really they ought to be? How many level crossings are in the highest risk categories and what can be done to reduce the impact of this?

Further food for thought: do we really need Ford station, or can it be mothballed? Is Aldrington station really in the right place? It's literally half a mile away from Hove. Or can we do without another station in addition to Hove and Portslade?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I question whether the smartest use of capacity is to operate something like...

- 2tph “Sussex Coast Express”, probably Clapham, Croydon, Gatwick, fast to Hove, then main stations off-peak with very high passenger usage figures such as Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing, Barnham and along. 8 coaches, no portion split, all to Portsmouth.

- 2tph from Victoria, Clapham and Croydon via Redhill to Gatwick, Crawley and Horsham (whichever intermediate stations make the most sense), and onto Bognor Regis to terminate.

- 2tph from Brighton, all stops along, to Littlehampton and then reverse and to Bognor. Acts as a technical through service to Bognor, and removes the need for the shuttle from Littlehampton. Also gives Littlehampton a half-hourly service to Barnham for all connections, and a proper all-stopping service along the Coast.

- And then a 2tph ‘mop up’ Brighton to Southampton, making any and all stops as required. I don’t perceive the Littlehampton to Portsmouth ‘mega stopper’ as needed, and 5tph is usually overkill, but this can stop anywhere needed.

All paths obviously subject to reasonable alteration at peak times, and if an overlay service can be added in from Chichester / Bognor / Littlehampton / West Worthing to Brighton at high peak that would probably work well.

The key thing is to provide the best available service to major settlements along the section from Hove to Barnham, as well as making the Arun Valley service more suitable, and resolving to provide a fast service every 30 minutes from the conurbation of Brighton and Hove to Portsmouth.

Not sure how you then deal with Havant to Portsmouth and Southampton. Part of me suggests something like:
- Divert the stopper from Waterloo to Portsmouth from Havant to Fareham and Southampton, and down to Poole, to make that a ‘proper’ connection from places like Guildford and the West Coastway to stations beyond Southampton.
- Make the existing half-hourly Waterloo to Poole or Portsmouth into a half-hourly Portsmouth via Eastleigh, with pathing to suit.
- Use one Brighton to Southampton as a mostly-stopping, e.g. all stops Fareham to St Denys, with one then only Swanwick and Southampton.
- Use the Waterloo - Guildford - Havant - Fareham - Southampton - Poole to make an extra call at Swanwick, which is a big station.
- Offer a diesel service from Portsmouth to Salisbury, possibly extended further to suit, to offer a sensible capacity buster / booster to the existing Cardiff to Portsmouth. Make stops at Netley and Woolston.
- Get the Portsmouth to Cardiff to be fast from Fratton to Fareham, then Swanwick, and Southampton.
- Add the future Marchwood (whatever they call that now, the Riverside or something) to run the remainder of the service to Romsey, via Southampton and Eastleigh.

 

[JonathanH]

I question whether the smartest use of capacity is to operate something like...

I'm pretty sure that the smartest use of capacity is the current (pre-March 2020) timetable (excluding the two GWR trains to Brighton).

The key thing is to provide the best available service to major settlements along the section from Hove to Barnham, as well as making the Arun Valley service more suitable, and resolving to provide a fast service every 30 minutes from the conurbation of Brighton and Hove to Portsmouth.

What is wrong with the Arun Valley service?

No faster service is possible on a two track railway between Brighton and Portsmouth than the one which ran prior to it picking up the stops of the West Worthing stopper.

The current West Coastway service is fairly comprehensive within the infrastructure constraints. I have long considered it a very good piece of work in particular given the way it fits into the gaps left by South West Trains west of Havant.

Maybe your issues with the current timetable need to be set out to work out the refinements needed.

2tph from Victoria, Clapham and Croydon via Redhill to Gatwick, Crawley and Horsham (whichever intermediate stations make the most sense), and onto Bognor Regis to terminate.

No messing about with going via Redhill is needed. It just adds unreliability to the journey and there is no room for Redhill passengers on the trains.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'm pretty sure that the smartest use of capacity is the current (pre-March 2020) timetable (excluding the two GWR trains to Brighton).


What is wrong with the Arun Valley service?

No faster service is possible on a two track railway between Brighton and Portsmouth than the one which ran prior to it picking up the stops of the West Worthing stopper.

The current West Coastway service is fairly comprehensive within the infrastructure constraints. I have long considered it a very good piece of work in particular given the way it fits into the gaps left by South West Trains west of Havant.

Maybe your issues with the current timetable need to be set out to work out the refinements needed.


No messing about with going via Redhill is needed. It just adds unreliability to the journey and there is no room for Redhill passengers on the trains.

Your comments are duly noted but you’re just trying to shout down discussion, rather than taking steps to do things like identify key passenger flows, where the demand is, where the timetable falls down, etc.

Being a cheerleader for the status quo isn’t good enough unless you want to speak facts.

 

[JonathanH]

Being a cheerleader for the status quo isn’t good enough unless you want to speak facts.

I do remember looking at the timetable when it first changed over ten years ago and thinking that it did many good snd clever things, including speeding up the Chichester to London service which must have been a prime objective. Chichester to London via Horsham is quicker than going via Hove and Haywards Heath.

The service is obviously still slow but long stretches of two track railway with level crossings is a fact as is the density of the population at the Brighton end in a narrow strip of land.

you’re just trying to shout down discussion, rather than taking steps to do things like identify key passenger flows, where the demand is, where the timetable falls down, etc.

It wasn't my intention to 'shout down' discussion but equally, I don't think anyone would start with a clean sheet of paper if thinking about how the trains operate on the West Coastway. It is really interesting to read and discuss practical issues with the current timetable rather than random lists of calling patterns.

For example, what is unsuitable about the Arun Valley service? Where would the gap in the timetable ever arise to put a faster Brighton to Portsmouth train in?

The key thing is to provide the best available service to major settlements along the section from Hove to Barnham, as well as making the Arun Valley service more suitable, and resolving to provide a fast service every 30 minutes from the conurbation of Brighton and Hove to Portsmouth.

Getting six trains in and out of Brighton every hour is probably as intensive as platforms 1 and 2 can support (with 3 being used mainly for London), a half hourly stopper is needed and a half hourly train which calls at fewer stations. The main stations on that stretch also need a relatively fast train to London and sending it to Littlehampton gives that station a through service to London. The faster train catches up the stopper by West Worthing. Then the Arun Valley feeds in further west.

Where really are the problems? Maybe that Littlehampton and Bognor don't have through trains to Brighton without changing but there is a limit to what fits. Change isn't necessarily needed for change's sake. I note that around Havant, a change at Fratton is sometimes preferable to using the through trains depending on destination.

Further west, after Havant, the idea of through services from the Guildford line to Southampton as an incremental change is interesting but the line through Swanwick has its own problems with accommodating the services that run there including the hourly stopper. Likewise the Botley line has that single track section which probably constrains things.

 

[Kite159]

For Sundays, where the Brighton - Portsmouth/Southampton trains call everywhere (with the Southampton ones skipping some of the smaller stations between Havant & Chichester), the trains could do with being 8 coaches to cope with demand.

Even if *breaking out the crayons* the trains split at Barnham with the rear unit going to Bognor to get out of the way if 8 coaches can't run (I know there might be issues at Southampton as the Southern unit normally goes in on top of the Portsmouth stopper for the longer turnaround time)

 

[BayPaul]

I think if you were starting with a clean sheet of paper and the existing infrastructure, you'd come up with something pretty similar to the 2019 timetable. As others have said, it is very clever the way the services interact with each other, with fast services becoming stoppers for part of their routes.

Also, as others have said, the one thing that is really missing is a decent fast service from Brighton to Portsmouth and Southampton. The only way to provide this, as far as I can see, is with infrastructure investment - probably some passing loops, ideally through one or two small stations, to allow a fast train to overtake a stopper without slowing either down. To get the best effect, I think it would need to be east of Worthing, where there are the most trains. Somewhere around East Worthing or Lancing probably has the most potential, but certainly not simple.

 

[sussexbythesea]

In terms of passing loops, would installation of crossovers at Worthing so that Platform 2 becomes bi-directional go some way to providing a loop in the down direction between Hove and Barnham?

 

[JonathanH]

In terms of passing loops, would installation of crossovers at Worthing so that Platform 2 becomes bi-directional go some way to providing a loop in the down direction between Hove and Barnham?

I don't really know what is gained by that - stoppers can terminate in the centre siding at West Worthing so get overtaken there and Worthing is the most significant stop between Hove and Barnham - I guess that it might be possible to extend the stopper to Littlehampton with than intervention if that was desired but it would be a fairly long dwell at Worthing - I dont think it enables the fabled Brighton to Portsmouth fast.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

2tph Brighton to Hove nonstop, connecting into London service

2tph London Victoria to Littlehampton calling at whichever stations to Preston Park, then Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Littlehampton

2tph Brighton to Littlehampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering and Littlehampton.

2tph Brighton to Bognor Regis calling at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Worthing and all stations to Bognor Regis

1tph Brighton to Portsmouth calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth (both if there’s time to go to Harbour)

1tph Brighton to Southampton calling at all stations to Worthing then Angmering, Barnham, Chichester, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton Central

1tph London Victoria to Portsmouth calling at whichever stations to Barnham, then Chichester, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth (both if there’s time to go to Harbour) - Bognor stoppers also part of this service

1tph London Victoria to Southampton calling at whichever stations to Barnham, then Chichester, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton Central - Bognor stoppers also part of this service

2tph Littlehampton to Portsmouth calling at all stations

Mate, I admire the enthuasiam, but this timetable is impossible. It literally cannot work. There is no capacity for all of the above services. And, your faster services would require so much pathing time following the stoppers that it would increase journey times signfifcantly to a point that it would be defeating the point of improving the service.

4tph to Bognor Regis would never work as it would be so unreliable due to the poor signalling headway.

I think the current timetable, is pretty much as perfect as its going to get too to be honest, and you won't be able to improve it any meaningful way unless there are significant infrastructure improvements.

 

[brad465]

Not sure about what services to alter/increase/decrease, but Arundel junction looks like a place for key improvements: if the land and potential benefits allowed, grade separation should be pursued, or if not possible, have the Arun Valley line converge into a brief 4 track section, where this and new crossovers would allow services between Victoria and Barnham onwards via Horsham and trains between Brighton/Hove and Littlehampton to move without conflict. I'm sure there is a catalogue of reasons why this isn't being pursued from what I can tell.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Not sure about what services to alter/increase/decrease, but Arundel junction looks like a place for key improvements: if the land and potential benefits allowed, grade separation should be pursued, or if not possible, have the Arun Valley line converge into a brief 4 track section, where this and new crossovers would allow services between Victoria and Barnham onwards via Horsham and trains between Brighton/Hove and Littlehampton to move without conflict. I'm sure there is a catalogue of reasons why this isn't being pursued from what I can tell.

Too expensive and there are other much higher priorty junctions you would grade seperate in Sussex over Arundel Junction.

Too be honest, I wouldn't actually say Arundel Junction, Barnham, Ford Junction, Havant and Hove are the most restrictive parts of West Coastway.

I would say its the mixture of stopping and faster trains, with barely any places to loop trains out of the way and the only places you can are Hove, Worthing in the Up Direction only, Barnham and technically West Worthing which are places where with the excpeiton of West Worthing, all trains call there anyway, and the constraints of working off 2 platforms at Brighton, and platforming issues at Southampton Central which requires platform sharing meaning lots of trains which could be lengthened to 8 coaches to increase capacity can't be or there are difficulties in doing so. A big one is any West Coastway train using Platform 3 at Brighton can only be formed of 4 coaches.

 

[Bald Rick]

The level crossings are another capacity constraint on the West Coastway. They are down for a substantial portion of the standard hour.

 

[yorksrob]

Too expensive and there are other much higher priorty junctions you would grade seperate in Sussex over Arundel Junction.

Too be honest, I wouldn't actually say Arundel Junction, Barnham, Ford Junction, Havant and Hove are the most restrictive parts of West Coastway.

I would say its the mixture of stopping and faster trains, with barely any places to loop trains out of the way and the only places you can are Hove, Worthing in the Up Direction only, Barnham and technically West Worthing which are places where with the excpeiton of West Worthing, all trains call there anyway, and the constraints of working off 2 platforms at Brighton, and platforming issues at Southampton Central which requires platform sharing meaning lots of trains which could be lengthened to 8 coaches to increase capacity can't be or there are difficulties in doing so. A big one is any West Coastway train using Platform 3 at Brighton can only be formed of 4 coaches.

That's a good point. Bearing in mind that the pre pandemic timetable is probably the best one could get at the moment, some sort of dynamic three tracking might be a solution to enable trains to overtake. Both Ford and Barnham have been built as three platform stations, and the area between them isn't built up, so this might be a good place to have such a facility.

 

[zwk500]

Not sure about what services to alter/increase/decrease, but Arundel junction looks like a place for key improvements: if the land and potential benefits allowed, grade separation should be pursued, or if not possible, have the Arun Valley line converge into a brief 4 track section, where this and new crossovers would allow services between Victoria and Barnham onwards via Horsham and trains between Brighton/Hove and Littlehampton to move without conflict. I'm sure there is a catalogue of reasons why this isn't being pursued from what I can tell.

4-Tracking that section would make things worse because you'd have to reduce the linespeed to fit the points in. Network Rail has produced a report on the West Coastway line, which I have linked to on other threads: https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...ssex Connectivity Modular Strategic Study.pdf

It makes interesting points about what would be required to operate a metro-level service between Brighton and Worthing (it's very expensive).

 

[BayPaul]

That's a good point. Bearing in mind that the pre pandemic timetable is probably the best one could get at the moment, some sort of dynamic three tracking might be a solution to enable trains to overtake. Both Ford and Barnham have been built as three platform stations, and the area between them isn't built up, so this might be a good place to have such a facility.

The problem with overtaking between Barnham and Ford is effectively all trains are already (almost) the same speed in this bit anyway as everything stops at Barnham and Chichester, so there is no point in having one train overtake another. As the stopper for stations from Chichester to Havant starts from Littlehampton, the 'fast' services are already in front of it, so there wouldn't be any gain from adding an overtaking facility here. I still think that the only useful area to add in an overtaking loop would be somewhere within the Brighton & Worthing Conurbation, as this is where the fast trains get stuck behind the slow ones (and so generally have stops added in to the services that ideally you wouldn't want a fast service to call at).

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with overtaking between Barnham and Ford is effectively all trains are already (almost) the same speed in this bit anyway as everything stops at Barnham and Chichester, so there is no point in having one train overtake another. As the stopper for stations from Chichester to Havant starts from Littlehampton, the 'fast' services are already in front of it, so there wouldn't be any gain from adding an overtaking facility here. I still think that the only useful area to add in an overtaking loop would be somewhere within the Brighton & Worthing Conurbation, as this is where the fast trains get stuck behind the slow ones (and so generally have stops added in to the services that ideally you wouldn't want a fast service to call at).

Maybe some dynamic loops around the Shoreham aerodrome area ?

Alternatively, I wonder if there would be room to remodel Fishersgate station with passing loops and through roads.

 

[30907]

Maybe some dynamic loops around the Shoreham aerodrome area ?

Alternatively, I wonder if there would be room to remodel Fishersgate station with passing loops and through roads.

Remember that you need two consecutive stations on the loops if you are not simply to have trains stopped for 3 minutes or more to allow fasts through (3min was eg at Headcorn for a 90mph boat train to overtake - if your fasts are not doing 90, which I suspect they aren't on Coastway, you'd need longer!).

And while a faster Pompey would be desirable, you'd still probably want the Shoreham stop so it wouldn't save that much time. I'd settle for replacing the 313s

 

[MarkyT]

Remember that you need two consecutive stations on the loops if you are not simply to have trains stopped for 3 minutes or more to allow fasts through (3min was eg at Headcorn for a 90mph boat train to overtake - if your fasts are not doing 90, which I suspect they aren't on Coastway, you'd need longer!).

At Dawlish Warren a timetabled overtake adds in the region of EIGHT minutes to the journey time of the stopper involved. In practice they can do it a bit quicker but you don't want to risk timing the fast closer behind the stopper as any small delay at previous stations can quickly impact the long distance service.

And while a faster Pompey would be desirable, you'd still probably want the Shoreham stop so it wouldn't save that much time. I'd settle for replacing the 313s

Absolutely. They are hopelessly underpowered compared to modern EMUs. Look at the installed power/weight difference between the current Merseyrail stock and their Stadler replacements for example. Probably needs a traction power supply upgrade to exploit it though.