West Country services, post IC125?

[59CosG95]

If the IC125's are going to be phased out sooner or later, maybe West Country services can be improved by Chilternising the Mk3's or reusing the Mk4's, hauled by a Class 67-does it seem like a good idea?

 

[Monty]

I cringe everytime I hear the word 'Chilternise' as if it was the answer to everything (including world peace), it's a bit like that word criminality that popped up after the London Riots.

Back OT, the HSTs will soldier on for a while yet as the plan is to keep sets for services into Devon and Cornwall. I'm not sure if we'll ever see power door HST trailers but I stand to be corrected. As for the Mk4s nothing confirmed for their future as of yet but it has been suggested they may transfer over to the MML (after it's wired) or GEML.

 

[YorkshireBear]

67s on Mk4s? No thank you. Can you imagine the acceleration? It would be horrific and i am sure they are not yet registered for 125 in use?

 

[455driver]

Hitachi will offer a deal to supply more expensive and nasty IEP bi-modes, the government of the time will see it as a bargain and will snap their hands off and scrap all the remaining HSTs as quickly as they can, a few years down the line when the true costs have been realised (and the government has changed again) passengers will be complaining even more about how expensive the railways are as they get fleeced to try and pay for these monstrosities.

 

[Surreyman]

Hitachi will offer a deal to supply more expensive and nasty IEP bi-modes, the government of the time will see it as a bargain and will snap their hands off and scrap all the remaining HSTs as quickly as they can, a few years down the line when the true costs have been realised (and the government has changed again) passengers will be complaining even more about how expensive the railways are as they get fleeced to try and pay for these monstrosities.

That's a scenario I would be very happy to see!
I agree with your sentiments about expensive Dft specced & sourced IEPs but the reality now is that they are going to be built.
If they can justify replacing the class 91s & mark 4 stock on the East coast then surely an additional order for more IEPs makes sense rather than retain HSTs for a few more years.
I would think electrification to Plymouth is a certainty in CP6 so more bi -modes will be needed for the Plymouth - Penzance section anyway.
Yes cynical Governments/DFT will play the 'PR' card, Hitachi will be seen as a wonderful company and taxpayers money will be spent but at the end of the day, we get a completely new fleet of trains for the GW and the HSTs will be scrapped.

 

[asylumxl]

Passengers will be complaining even more about how expensive the railways are as they get fleeced to try and pay for these monstrosities.

Wasn't that the whole point of privatisation?

In all honesty I think the HSTs are a bit long in the tooth and I think new stock on the SW runs from Paddington would be welcome.

While I appreciate the IEP is not the greatest thing since sliced bread it won't be any worse than any other existing designs.

 

[TheWalrus]

Didn't we have another similar thread a few weeks back?

I think electrification to Plymouth with loco drags to Penzance is a possible solution. I was thinking earlier today to do this "mini-pendo" order and order some 8 car sets for West of England services with a possibility of upgrading for tilt to reduce journey times?

 

[WestCountry]

If the IC125's are going to be phased out sooner or later, maybe West Country services can be improved by Chilternising the Mk3's or reusing the Mk4's, hauled by a Class 67-does it seem like a good idea?

How would this be better than just performing Chiltern-style mods on the HST trailers? There are a lot more HST trailers than loco-hauled Mk3s and the HST powercars perform better than a 67 (and AFAIK are cheaper to run post-MTUing).

 

[asylumxl]

Didn't we have another similar thread a few weeks back?

I think electrification to Plymouth with loco drags to Penzance is a possible solution. I was thinking earlier today to do this "mini-pendo" order and order some 8 car sets for West of England services with a possibility of upgrading for tilt to reduce journey times?

The clearance, particularly past Totnes, is quite tight so it may not be possible to tilt without expensive work on viaducts etc. Unfortunately, it's a catch 22 situation as it is past Exeter that the tilt would be most beneficial.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

67s on Mk4s? No thank you. Can you imagine the acceleration? It would be horrific and i am sure they are not yet registered for 125 in use?

Is there another type of diesel locomotive they could work with?

 

[47802]

Oh what joy another IEP verses alternates thread, I think we can safely say it will either be IEP, life extended HST or possibly 222's as outside bet, and lets just leave it at that until we see what really happens.

MK4 yeh lets get 50's out of retirement as well to pull them

 

[MidlandMainlie]

How many 125 are needed for WoE services could the Mark 4 be split between GEML and WoE services on GWML?

 

[59CosG95]

Is there another type of diesel locomotive they could work with?

AFAIK, 67s and 43s are currently the only diesel locos in revenue passenger service - all the others are for freight and charter trains. If Project Thor took off, eVoyagers could use tilt on a wired Plymouth route and then operate either loco-hauled or under their own fuel (still tilting) to Penzance.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there another type of diesel locomotive they could work with?

The TSOE of a Mk4 set is compatible with just about any locomotive. However if you want to use the DVT then you'll need to use locomotives that have TDM or modify them to use TDM (that would include the 67s which currently use AAR).

 

[ACE1888]

I dare say we'll get more 20+ year old cast off's down this way, with a slap of paint no one will notice

 

[TheGrew]

I too think it would have to be IEP with electrification hopefully as far as Plymouth (or at LEAST Exeter)

 

[59CosG95]

IEP does sound very likely now, doesn't it? I guess their faster rates of accel/decel mean that they'll be better suited to shorter-haul stops e.g Bodmin-Par. I wonder though-will there be demand for a tilt retrofit, turning them into, say, Class 802?

 

[ainsworth74]

That would most likely require a new body-shell so I believe the answer to that will be: No.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh good another thread for IEP bashes this is exactly what the forum needed.

I think they will carry on with the best of the HSTs for as long as they can to be honest. IEP or other replacement may wait a long time.

 

[455driver]

I think they will carry on with the best of the HSTs for as long as they can to be honest. IEP or other replacement may wait a long time.

Which is what most people want but if DaFT force the extra IEPs on them?

 

[TheWalrus]

I think they should replace them in due course as they can't go on forever and it's no way forward to improve services to the west, as much as I like HSTs.

 

[broadgage]

Hitachi will offer a deal to supply more expensive and nasty IEP bi-modes, the government of the time will see it as a bargain and will snap their hands off and scrap all the remaining HSTs as quickly as they can, a few years down the line when the true costs have been realised (and the government has changed again) passengers will be complaining even more about how expensive the railways are as they get fleeced to try and pay for these monstrosities.

I fear that you are correct, with one exception. The second batch of nasty IEP bi-modes will be at least as bad as the first lot as regards internal layout and passenger comfort, but will contain a number of subtle technical "improvements" and "upgrades" that will prevent reliable operation in multiple with the existing ones. A 10 year multi million pound programe will then be announced to upgrade the first batch to operate with the second lot.

Taking units out of service for this work will result in long distance services being routinely operated by single 5 car units, and ongoing crush loading.

After a few false starts, teething problems and 138 software upgrades, the whole fleet will operate in multiple by about 2025.
It will then be found that the no longer new IEPs wont be compliant with DDA rules that came into force in 2015, a 15 year derogation having been granted.

Gross overcrowding continues as units are rotated through the works to render them DDA compliant by the cut off date of 2030.
Any remaing table seats and catering facilities will of course have been long since withdrawn in order to "provide much needed extra capacity" and "thousands of extra seats"

By 2035, end of life will be in sight, and a commitee will be drawing up a specification for replacements, with promises being made that the new trains will be longer, have "no compromise" on leg room, and so on.

 

[Surreyman]

Which is what most people want but if DaFT force the extra IEPs on them?

Well there's no one more cynical than me when it comes to the whole IEP saga but I do want to see the HSTs replaced and I can see some logic in having a single modern fleet on the GW.

 

[jimm]

I fear that you are correct, with one exception. The second batch of nasty IEP bi-modes will be at least as bad as the first lot as regards internal layout and passenger comfort, but will contain a number of subtle technical "improvements" and "upgrades" that will prevent reliable operation in multiple with the existing ones. A 10 year multi million pound programe will then be announced to upgrade the first batch to operate with the second lot.

Taking units out of service for this work will result in long distance services being routinely operated by single 5 car units, and ongoing crush loading.

After a few false starts, teething problems and 138 software upgrades, the whole fleet will operate in multiple by about 2025.
It will then be found that the no longer new IEPs wont be compliant with DDA rules that came into force in 2015, a 15 year derogation having been granted.

Gross overcrowding continues as units are rotated through the works to render them DDA compliant by the cut off date of 2030.
Any remaing table seats and catering facilities will of course have been long since withdrawn in order to "provide much needed extra capacity" and "thousands of extra seats"

By 2035, end of life will be in sight, and a commitee will be drawing up a specification for replacements, with promises being made that the new trains will be longer, have "no compromise" on leg room, and so on.

Nostradamus lives... or maybe you should just wait to see a real IEP first.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would ask that discussion of the problems (or not) with IEP in general (i.e. if it's a good idea, value for money, if there are better options) should be conducted in this thread. Leaving the discussion here about rolling stock to the West Country post HST, obviously discussing pros and cons of IEP in regards to West Country operations is fine. But the viability of the whole program should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[455driver]

Here is hoping that an upgrade to the HST mark 3s see them in service for at least another decade.

Every coach will have the doors modified and 3 coaches per set will have 2 retention toilets fitted (the other coaches wont have any toilets), saving several million on the upgrade which makes it cost effective even in the shadow of the Hitachi offer. As the Country is still skint the government will go for the cheapest (HST upgrade) option and Hitachi will throw their teddy out after being rejected.

Oh and the power cars will finally be fitted with sanding equipment (even though it is 30 years later than when it should have been fitted) meaning that 2+9s to the South West are a viable prospect!

Fingers crossed!

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Here is hoping that an upgrade to the HST mark 3s see them in service for at least another decade.

Every coach will have the doors modified and 3 coaches per set will have 2 retention toilets fitted (the other coaches wont have any toilets), saving several million on the upgrade which makes it cost effective even in the shadow of the Hitachi offer. As the Country is still skint the government will go for the cheapest (HST upgrade) option and Hitachi will throw their teddy out after being rejected.

Oh and the power cars will finally be fitted with sanding equipment (even though it is 30 years later than when it should have been fitted) meaning that 2+9s to the South West are a viable prospect!

Fingers crossed!

Would refurbishing Mark 3's be the cheaper option though? especially when there will be other stock becoming available for WoE services e.g. 222's* which could be used as a stop gap measure until cross country electrification is completed by the end of CP6. Depending on the scale of electrification then bi-modes could be displaced from other routes e.g. if Swindon to Standish Junction is done as an add on to the core cross country scheme, then Bi-modes could be freed from Weston and Cheltenham/Gloucester services to run into the southwest.

*Yes I am aware that there have been comments from local stakeholders that they don't want stock with underfloor diesel engines but will the government take any notice?

 

[cjmillsnun]

The TSOE of a Mk4 set is compatible with just about any locomotive. However if you want to use the DVT then you'll need to use locomotives that have TDM or modify them to use TDM (that would include the 67s which currently use AAR).

Or modify the DVT to use AAR like they did with the Mk3 DVTs that went to Chiltern
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would refurbishing Mark 3's be the cheaper option though? especially when there will be other stock becoming available for WoE services e.g. 222's* which could be used as a stop gap measure until cross country electrification is completed by the end of CP6. Depending on the scale of electrification then bi-modes could be displaced from other routes e.g. if Swindon to Standish Junction is done as an add on to the core cross country scheme, then Bi-modes could be freed from Weston and Cheltenham/Gloucester services to run into the southwest.

*Yes I am aware that there have been comments from local stakeholders that they don't want stock with underfloor diesel engines but will the government take any notice?

Methinks you missed the sarcasm in the post you quoted.

 

[crewmeal]

I guess a lot depends on future speed limits west of Exeter. What is the point of brand new stock with potential speeds upwards of 100mph if it can't be used. Personally I can't ever see a train racing past the Dawlish sea wall or up Dainton Bank at 125mph.

If speed limits were increased then I guess one answer will be a Pendolino operation like the old 'Holyhead drags' past Exeter or Plymouth. Personally I don't ever see the Plymouth - Penzance line electrified.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm genuinely starting to think that if people born in the 1890s were alive today they'd be insisting that our "expensive and nasty" diesels need to be replaced by steam locos again.

It's patently obvious that we can't keep using the same things forever. Not to mention the fact that the IEP specification explicitly rules out many of the problems people are predicting it will have. That they think they're being clever by pointing it out when all the evidence points against them goes over the line from being cynical to ridiculous.