West Ham United FC moving to Stratford

[fat_boy_pete]

Mods note Split from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=127749

Public transport access to our major football grounds is very poor in comparison with those on the continent like Stade de France, Feyenoord, Ajax, Borussia Dortmund, Schalke, Hertha Berlin, Augsburg, Heysel, Real Madrid, etc.

Well we will find out in August how Stratford copes with 60,000 fans leaving the Olympic Stadium

 

[coupwotcoup]

Stratford's gonna be a nightmare once a fortnight methinks....with at least 75% of each home game travelling east after the final whistle.
Some will go via Pudding Mill Lane probably but that won't be able to cope and a meeting of thousands of Westfields shoppers, plus a mass
of irate - hopefully - Spammers could cause major problems in the area...

 

[Busaholic]

Stratford's gonna be a nightmare once a fortnight methinks....with at least 75% of each home game travelling east after the final whistle.
Some will go via Pudding Mill Lane probably but that won't be able to cope and a meeting of thousands of Westfields shoppers, plus a mass
of irate - hopefully - Spammers could cause major problems in the area...

Divert all C2C services via Stratford to Liverpool Street on these occasions!?

 

[coupwotcoup]

Sounds a decent idea but don't think that Stratford would have the capacity, especially with 12 Crossrail trains an hour coming soon, plus others.

Hopefully they get relegated and dealing with 15,000 v Rotherham will help the situ... )

 

[Bald Rick]

Well we will find out in August how Stratford copes with 60,000 fans leaving the Olympic Stadium

Yes, how on earth did Stratford cope when the Olympic stadium kicked out 80,000, at around the same time as the velodrome, aquatic centre and various other attractions were also holding events?

 

[coupwotcoup]

99% of them were 'ordinary' people...and not Spammer's fans... )

 

[306024]

Divert all C2C services via Stratford to Liverpool Street on these occasions!?

Insufficient capacity / platforms at Liverpool St. Divert them all to Fenchurch St would be better. With just a 30 minute service to Basildon etc there will be a lot of hanging around after the game. It will be difficult to judge whether to go to West Ham or wait at Stratford, but after a few games most will hopefully realise the c2c offering is insufficient and head for West Ham.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, how on earth did Stratford cope when the Olympic stadium kicked out 80,000, at around the same time as the velodrome, aquatic centre and various other attractions were also holding events?

That was operated with military precision, and I'd argue also that many football fans aren't perhaps quite as patient or willing to form orderly queues.

The Olympics was quite unique in the way everything was set up, but maybe we'll be surprised and see that it works just as well for football matches, especially when having to cope with away fans too..

 

[coupwotcoup]

A small football halt on Carpenters Road might alleviate the problems - just open on
match days and there's plenty of room for a basic two platforms and footbridge twixt and
between the Richmond line and the Docklands extension to Stratford International.

Perhaps the Spammers could fund it...must have a few bob spare right now...

 

[306024]

A small football halt on Carpenters Road might alleviate the problems - just open on match days and there's plenty of room for a basic two platforms and footbridge twixt and between the Richmond line and the Docklands extension to Stratford International.

Perhaps the Spammers could fund it...must have a few bob spare right now...

Well that can join the list of ridiculous ideas. Impractical in so many ways, from crowd control to timetabling.

Something tells me you are not a keen follower of the mighty Hammers.......

 

[coupwotcoup]

I don't wish to get involved in a bout of 'willy waving' but could you explain to a level ten
(out of ten) rail aficionado as to the impracticability of such a scheme?

Surely Wembley Stadium station works along those lines?

As for the Spammers, it's become a matter of course for me to cough and spit, when on
the Jubilee and the announcement goes out that the next stop is West Ham. :0)

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't wish to get involved in a bout of 'willy waving' but could you explain to a level ten
(out of ten) rail aficionado as to the impracticability of such a scheme?

Surely Wembley Stadium station works along those lines?

As for the Spammers, it's become a matter of course for me to cough and spit, when on
the Jubilee and the announcement goes out that the next stop is West Ham. :0)

Allow me.

Passenger handling. Such a service at such a station could only be provided for through the already busy Stratford - Richmond / Willesden service. And realistically, most of the fans would want to head to Stratford. This concentrates the fans on to one route whereas what is required is to get them to Stratford where there are a further 2 tube lines, 2 DLR lines and 3 national rail routes with far greater capacity. Put another way, trying to get 60,000 people on to one platform for a 10 minute service of 5 cars is rather more difficult than getting 60,000 people on to 16 platforms with a train roughly every 30 seconds.

Feasibility. At Carpenters Road, it is currently three tracks. The track nearest the stadium (presumably where a platform could go) is only accessible from the GEML at Stratford (platforms 10 and 10a) or Bow Jn. There is no regular passenger service on that track, so one would have to be specially provided. Also the protecting signals for Lea Junction and Channlesea North Junction are in the way. So if a train towards Stratford stops there, it will block the junction in rear. Finally, there is Carpenters Road itself right alongside the tracks - remember this would be a busy station, so it will need wide platforms.

Timetabling. Adding in a stop on match days only would require a new timetable for each match. Now this isn't unusual - it is done for White Hart Lane (back OT). However it is unusual on this line, and would more than likely break junction working at one or more of Camden, Gospel oak, Willesden and possibly Clapham.

Cost. A station that only opens 30 times a year or so is still a station, you would still need full compliance to Disability regs etc. That means lifts or ramps. Even with 5 car platforms, you are looking at little change from £8m. And when would you build it? That line is only routinely closed for 8 hours on a Sunday morning, and 5 hours on Monday morning.

Even if it was feasible, and the timetable worked, and someone had the cash, then the passenger handling issue would kill it.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, how on earth did Stratford cope when the Olympic stadium kicked out 80,000, at around the same time as the velodrome, aquatic centre and various other attractions were also holding events?

With the Olympics, people went in all directions, which spread the travel burden, whereas West Ham fans are mainly heading east

Also, with the Olympic Park being full of activity, people tended to stagger their journeys to and from the Park, whereas once a football match finishes there, there will be no reason to hang around

 

[HowardGWR]

A small football halt on Carpenters Road might alleviate the problems - just open on
match days and there's plenty of room for a basic two platforms and footbridge twixt and
between the Richmond line and the Docklands extension to Stratford International.

Perhaps the Spammers could fund it...must have a few bob spare right now...

What I noted about the area is that it was festooned with stations within one kilometer - I ran out of counting them.

Thus one would suspect that in the new era, visitors will discover the best routes. Don't forget that with a 60,000 capacity, there will be not so many Alf Garnetts left and far more prawn sandwich types, like a certain Mancunian club.

 

[Clip]

To be honest though when games finish its still a bit of a walk to Stratford itself so this will thin out the crowds anyway and with people popping into Westfield and that for a bite to eat/after match beer I doubt it will be too much hassle.

Oh and I really doubt all 60k will want to be getting the train let alone all going in the same direction

 

[coupwotcoup]

Allow me.

Passenger handling. Such a service at such a station could only be provided for through the already busy Stratford - Richmond / Willesden service. And realistically, most of the fans would want to head to Stratford. This concentrates the fans on to one route whereas what is required is to get them to Stratford where there are a further 2 tube lines, 2 DLR lines and 3 national rail routes with far greater capacity. Put another way, trying to get 60,000 people on to one platform for a 10 minute service of 5 cars is rather more difficult than getting 60,000 people on to 16 platforms with a train roughly every 30 seconds.

Feasibility. At Carpenters Road, it is currently three tracks. The track nearest the stadium (presumably where a platform could go) is only accessible from the GEML at Stratford (platforms 10 and 10a) or Bow Jn. There is no regular passenger service on that track, so one would have to be specially provided. Also the protecting signals for Lea Junction and Channlesea North Junction are in the way. So if a train towards Stratford stops there, it will block the junction in rear. Finally, there is Carpenters Road itself right alongside the tracks - remember this would be a busy station, so it will need wide platforms.

Timetabling. Adding in a stop on match days only would require a new timetable for each match. Now this isn't unusual - it is done for White Hart Lane (back OT). However it is unusual on this line, and would more than likely break junction working at one or more of Camden, Gospel oak, Willesden and possibly Clapham.

Cost. A station that only opens 30 times a year or so is still a station, you would still need full compliance to Disability regs etc. That means lifts or ramps. Even with 5 car platforms, you are looking at little change from £8m. And when would you build it? That line is only routinely closed for 8 hours on a Sunday morning, and 5 hours on Monday morning.

Even if it was feasible, and the timetable worked, and someone had the cash, then the passenger handling issue would kill it.

Wow, that makes me want to Tweet Stephen Fry and ask about the meaning
of life....if he still had an account of course...

Seriously though, you guys never cease to amaze - I've mainly watched this
forum from afar for years and when it comes to solving rail logistics, there
always seems to be at least one of you that's on the button.

 

[glbotu]

Is there actually a demographic analysis of West Ham fans' home locations. I'd suggest that a large portion of them will be from the Barking/Upton/Plaistow area, which will probably send a non-trival amount of fans straight to the Jubilee Line, for their one stop interchange to West Ham station. Assuming that those will likely mix with at least some of the London - Bound passengers. Could the capacity of the Jubilee line be increased, simply by running a North Greenwich shuttle?

 

[adrock1976]

A thought has come into my mind regarding the relocation of West Ham United FC from their spiritual home the Boleyn Ground to the Olympic Stadium.

As the Olympic Stadium is in Stratford, this means that West Ham FC will no longer be based in the West Ham area. Perhaps they could be called Stratford Irons United, using the nickname of WH, and maintain their historic link to the West Ham area?

After all, the original Wimbledon FC are now called Milton Keynes Dons, with Dons being the nickname of the original Wimbledon FC.

 

[EM2]

...I'd argue also that many football fans aren't perhaps quite as patient or willing to form orderly queues.

They already do at Upton Park station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As the Olympic Stadium is in Stratford, this means that West Ham FC will no longer be based in the West Ham area. Perhaps they could be called Stratford Irons United, using the nickname of WH, and maintain their historic link to the West Ham area?

Stratford is in the borough of Newham, as is the Boleyn, and before the creation of the Greater London Council, it was part of the County Borough of West Ham.
So if anything, the club are reinforcing their links with the traditional area of West Ham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there actually a demographic analysis of West Ham fans' home locations. I'd suggest that a large portion of them will be from the Barking/Upton/Plaistow area, which will probably send a non-trival amount of fans straight to the Jubilee Line, for their one stop interchange to West Ham station. Assuming that those will likely mix with at least some of the London - Bound passengers. Could the capacity of the Jubilee line be increased, simply by running a North Greenwich shuttle?

Most fans these days come from well outside the traditional areas, with many being from areas beyond Romford (Basildon, Rayleigh and Wickford are especially popular).
Those supporters are generally considering the Jubilee and DLR to West Ham and changing for c2c, they currently change at WH from the H&C/District.
A number of fans are thinking of using the Central Line to Epping, having parked there from Harlow and surrounding areas, and another large group will use the GEML to Colchester and Chelmsford.

 

[hulabaloo]

As a "Spammer" I've checked out the stadium for a couple of the rugby events last Autumn - the police on each occasion funnelled everyone out of the stadium into two main exits, one going through Westfield, the other along the side, and controlled the numbers entering the main station. To clear the area probably took up to an hour, but there are plenty of places around the area to go afterwards for those not in a rush to get home.

Compared to the single queue trying to get into Upton Park station at present, the new ground has many more options as well, such as Hackney Wick and Bromley by Bow. My main concern would be though Saturday afternoon games, especially around Christmas time, when Westfield is absolutely rammed as well. Throw a couple of thousand away fans into the mix and it could prove a testing time for the local constabulary.

I'll be using Stratford International the majority of the time though, which hopefully will whisk me away from the area at 140mph and back to leafy Kent!

 

[D1009]

Yes, how on earth did Stratford cope when the Olympic stadium kicked out 80,000, at around the same time as the velodrome, aquatic centre and various other attractions were also holding events?

By cancelling HS1 services to provide a shuttle into St Pancras, among other things.

 

[6Gman]

How often will WHU fill a 60,000 seater stadium?

Serious question - not a dig.

 

[EM2]

How often will WHU fill a 60,000 seater stadium?

Serious question - not a dig.

At the moment, it's being set at 54,000, although there is a plan in place for 60,000 next season. That's because of demand already, so it'll sell out pretty much every game I reckon. After that, David Gold did say that he expects to sell out for London derbies and games against both Manchester teams, and probably Liverpool.

 

[Busaholic]

Insufficient capacity / platforms at Liverpool St. Divert them all to Fenchurch St would be better. With just a 30 minute service to Basildon etc there will be a lot of hanging around after the game. It will be difficult to judge whether to go to West Ham or wait at Stratford, but after a few games most will hopefully realise the c2c offering is insufficient and head for West Ham.

Surely sufficient capacity at Liv St on a Saturday post Crossrail?

 

[306024]

Surely sufficient capacity at Liv St on a Saturday post Crossrail?

Indeed, except that is three seasons away.

As a "Spammer" I've checked out the stadium for a couple of the rugby events last Autumn - the police on each occasion funnelled everyone out of the stadium into two main exits, one going through Westfield, the other along the side, and controlled the numbers entering the main station. To clear the area probably took up to an hour, but there are plenty of places around the area to go afterwards for those not in a rush to get home.

I did likewise, but despite having a ticket on the far side of the stadium I was back on the platform at Stratford in 30 minutes. The short cut to Pudding Mill Lane seems favourite until everyone finds out about it.

Most fans these days come from well outside the traditional areas, with many being from areas beyond Romford (Basildon, Rayleigh and Wickford are especially popular).
Those supporters are generally considering the Jubilee and DLR to West Ham and changing for c2c, they currently change at WH from the H&C/District.
A number of fans are thinking of using the Central Line to Epping, having parked there from Harlow and surrounding areas, and another large group will use the GEML to Colchester and Chelmsford.

That's a good assessment. Although I'm not sure I'd drive to Epping when there is a direct service from Harlow to Stratford.

What I noted about the area is that it was festooned with stations within one kilometer - I ran out of counting them.

Thus one would suspect that in the new era, visitors will discover the best routes. Don't forget that with a 60,000 capacity, there will be not so many Alf Garnetts left and far more prawn sandwich types, like a certain Mancunian club.

Olympic legacy, Stratford has wonderful public transport links.

Also while Alf Garnett was a West Ham fan, Warren Mitchell who played him was ironically a Spurs supporter.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

As the Olympic Stadium is in Stratford, this means that West Ham FC will no longer be based in the West Ham area. Perhaps they could be called Stratford Irons United, using the nickname of WH, and maintain their historic link to the West Ham area?

.

Well you know nothing of the History of the club that's for sure or geography. :roll: Founded as Thames Ironworks in 1895, the club played at the Memorial Ground (adjacent to current West Ham station) until 1904, when it moved to the Boleyn Ground. The latter is sited on the boundary of the old county boroughs of West Ham and East Ham. The Olympic stadium is located within the borders of the County Borough of West Ham and nearer to the Memorial Ground than the Boleyn Ground.

So you could argue that the club is actually moving closer to it's original location. In any case all 3 locations are within the boundary of Newham, which has existed since 1964.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Away from questions about History, the main issue with Stratford isn't the crowd control getting to the station, but whether AGA have enough sense to run 12 car formations, not 4 cars like they did for the Rugby!

 

[306024]

Away from questions about History, the main issue with Stratford isn't the crowd control getting to the station, but whether AGA have enough sense to run 12 car formations, not 4 cars like they did for the Rugby!

Indeed, couldn't afford the extra unit mileage allegedly. Still after a few games it may not be Abellio providing the service, although whether the other two choices will be any better remains to be seen.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'll be using Stratford International the majority of the time though, which hopefully will whisk me away from the area at 140mph and back to leafy Kent!

Ah, home in time for prawn sandwiches. See, I knew I was right.

Actually that sounds a very pleasant afternoon out. Very envious.

 

[adrock1976]

Well you know nothing of the History of the club that's for sure or geography. :roll: Founded as Thames Ironworks in 1895, the club played at the Memorial Ground (adjacent to current West Ham station) until 1904, when it moved to the Boleyn Ground. The latter is sited on the boundary of the old county boroughs of West Ham and East Ham. The Olympic stadium is located within the borders of the County Borough of West Ham and nearer to the Memorial Ground than the Boleyn Ground.

So you could argue that the club is actually moving closer to it's original location. In any case all 3 locations are within the boundary of Newham, which has existed since 1964.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Away from questions about History, the main issue with Stratford isn't the crowd control getting to the station, but whether AGA have enough sense to run 12 car formations, not 4 cars like they did for the Rugby!

Many thanks for clearing that up.

Regarding the first sentence: I do know that West Ham are not the original or first team to adopt the claret and blue home strips. Neither are Scunthorpe United or Burnley either. Also, I have never resided in, or paid council tax to Newham Council.

West Ham adopted the present claret and blue after my team and the original claret and blue (but not so mighty nowadays) Aston Villa gave a loan of their spare kit to the West Ham team in the first half of the 1900s.

Furthermore, Aston Villa, despite their recent struggles, are unique in that they are the only UK team (to the best of my knowledge) that play in claret and blue to have won the European Cup every time they have reached the final - albeit the 1982 final remains the one and only time Villa have done that. I would like to mention that it was done the proper way i.e. the pre-requisite for entering the tournament was that you had to actually win the top flight division, which Villa did in 1981 - none of this nonsense of finishing third or fourth that you get today.

Anyway, the above should really be in the Football thread in General Discussion. Moving on, I feel that the crowd control may be easier at Stratford, due to various stations and modes of transport dotted around nearby. This would ideally mean that the crowds would disperse in various directions gradually.

 

[EM2]

Furthermore, Aston Villa, despite their recent struggles, are unique in that they are the only UK team (to the best of my knowledge) to have won the European Cup every time they have reached the final

Er, Nottingham Forest? The only team to be champions of Europe more times than they have been champions of their country.