West Highland 37s - THE END?

[joeholmes]

Yorkie will be very shocked to hear about this!


WHAT?!

Enthusiasts let set fire to them ([ljg;klggf;f) disgusting Skipful (disgusting, rubbish) Skips

Please think before you post.

But no, I'm not shocked. EWS were expected to win the contract, and we all know what that Canadian company are up to. We all know how much they hate British locos. So, no I am not shocked.

However, fortunately there are many obstacles they must overcome so you'll be sure that 37 haulage will continue for a few months and we will get a few weeks notice before the end.

Fingers crossed that we can wait until Summer to have our 37 trips, but if the end is sooner than that we'll have to bring them forward. (Anyone interested who is not already on the list PM me)

As a half Canadian spending most of his holidays in Canada, meeting some fantastic rail-enthusiats Im tell you now, they certainly do not hate British Loco...

Yorkie, im sorry to say, but you are using a generlisation to portray the Canadiam ethusiasts.. General Motors are a fantastic company.. Please Yorkie, re-think what you said

Merry Christmas All

J.Holmes

 

[yorkie]

As a half Canadian spending most of his holidays in Canada, meeting some fantastic rail-enthusiats Im tell you now, they certainly do not hate British Loco...

Yorkie, im sorry to say, but you are using a generlisation to portray the Canadiam ethusiasts.. General Motors are a fantastic company.. Please Yorkie, re-think what you said

Merry Christmas All

J.Holmes

Sorry Joe you mis-understand. I wasn't actually talking about General Motors, and I never mentioned them. Nor did I mention Canadian enthusiasts.

I was talking about, and did specify, EWS (in particular their CEO)

 

[bunnahabhain]

Why should EWS portray their company image as one that runs grotty 40 year old Locomotives when they can show potential customers that they run modern, clean and reliable services.

 

[AlexS]

Yeees.

But unfortunately, the American build quality is lightyears ahead of the British. The Class 60s took literally years to introduce, because they were of an awful build quality. That as much as anything was a killer for the industry. The Class 66s are the best things to happen to railfreight in years. Instead of a shaky unreliable fleet of 47s, 56s and so on, EWS have a fleet a quarter of the size and twice as reliable. Yes, they may make the railway scene for enthusiasts boring, but at the end of the day I would rather have a railfreight industry that is growing that I feel too bored to go and see, as opposed to one in a terminal decline because the shuddering heaps that should be hauling the trains have collapsed on a mainline.

The Class 59s started it off as the most reliable locomotives in Britain. Regardless of whether a locomotive is British, American, Russian or Cuban, if it is reliable enough to help railfreight grow instead of decline, I'd happily throw away the native locomotives to ensure that continues.

Compare the foreign built recent products to ones built here.

Alstom Pendolinos built in Birmingham: awful
Alstom Adelantes built in Birmingham: awful
Alstom Coradias built in Birmingham: awful
Siemens Desiros built in Germany: Good quality
Bombardier Turbostars built put together in this country from foreign parts: Good
General Motors Class 66: Excellent
Brush Class 60: Oh dear
General Motors Class 59: Excellent

It seems to me that British industrial construction is either getting worse, or foreign construction is getting better and making us look bad.

Either way, at the end of the day it is the fact that the foreign locomotives are far better machines for the job in hand than our own knackered/unreliable examples. Running a business means that you buy the best you can. General Motors are the best locomotive builders. I salute EWS for buying the 66s.

EWS don't hate Britain, the other products on offer were simply far superior to our own offerings.

 

[joeholmes]

I agree fully Alex!

Joe

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

Yeees.

But unfortunately, the American build quality is lightyears ahead of the British. The Class 60s took literally years to introduce, because they were of an awful build quality. That as much as anything was a killer for the industry. The Class 66s are the best things to happen to railfreight in years. Instead of a shaky unreliable fleet of 47s, 56s and so on, EWS have a fleet a quarter of the size and twice as reliable. Yes, they may make the railway scene for enthusiasts boring, but at the end of the day I would rather have a railfreight industry that is growing that I feel too bored to go and see, as opposed to one in a terminal decline because the shuddering heaps that should be hauling the trains have collapsed on a mainline.

The Class 59s started it off as the most reliable locomotives in Britain. Regardless of whether a locomotive is British, American, Russian or Cuban, if it is reliable enough to help railfreight grow instead of decline, I'd happily throw away the native locomotives to ensure that continues.

Compare the foreign built recent products to ones built here.

Alstom Pendolinos built in Birmingham: awful
Alstom Adelantes built in Birmingham: awful
Alstom Coradias built in Birmingham: awful
Siemens Desiros built in Germany: Good quality
Bombardier Turbostars built put together in this country from foreign parts: Good
General Motors Class 66: Excellent
Brush Class 60: Oh dear
General Motors Class 59: Excellent

It seems to me that British industrial construction is either getting worse, or foreign construction is getting better and making us look bad.

Either way, at the end of the day it is the fact that the foreign locomotives are far better machines for the job in hand than our own knackered/unreliable examples. Running a business means that you buy the best you can. General Motors are the best locomotive builders. I salute EWS for buying the 66s.

EWS don't hate Britain, the other products on offer were simply far superior to our own offerings.

ah someone who finally sees the light!

 

[Julian G]

Even We Shed
new abbreviation for EWS
Oh, well , i guess we will have to live with those Skipful Skips

 

[Max]

Even We Shed
new abbreviation for EWS
Oh, well , i guess we will have to live with those Skipful Skips

:?

Is 'skipful' an adjective? :roll:

 

[Simming]

Enjoy Wee Skips

 

[yorkie]

Why should EWS portray their company image as one that runs grotty 40 year old Locomotives when they can show potential customers that they run modern, clean and reliable services.

Why? Because the so-called "grotty" (unpleasant or of bad quality - hardly applies to the 37s, does it?) locomotives are actually reliable, and offer a faster more efficient service than the 67s. Read Metrocammel's post.

AlexS - your post isn't really applicable to the West Highland Line.

At the end of the day, 67s are not suitable for the WHL and if EWS persist with their demands to remove 37s from the route, it could spell the end for the Fort William sleeper, and that would be very sad indeed.

 

[metrocammel]

Alex S said:

"Alstom Pendolinos built in Birmingham: awful
Alstom Adelantes built in Birmingham: awful
Alstom Coradias built in Birmingham: awful
Siemens Desiros built in Germany: Good quality
Bombardier Turbostars built put together in this country from foreign parts: Good
General Motors Class 66: Excellent
Brush Class 60: Oh dear
General Motors Class 59: Excellent "


Regarding the Turbostars, you've used clever wording there, as there is no-such thing as a "British" train anymore, as Pendolino's were flat-packed from Fiat in Italy and assmembled in Birmingham, not BUILT in Birmingham, in the same way, Turbostars were built flat-packed in France, and brought over and assembled over here. Also, and opposite case of the above is the 56's. They Romanian built examples were attroctious, though the English built ones were pretty reliable, albeit fuel guzzling and loud(!)

But it is a sad day when we have to accept that our railway system relies on all - foreign traction, from 50 years ago when we supplied nearly all the worlds trains, like the Vulcan Foundry in Newton - le -Willows could have up to 10 countries trains in construction in the factory at the same time, and now the site has been demolished. Blame the unions?

 

[metrocammel]

The Fort William sleeper can't be any longer because the convoy down to Euston is at max size in terms of platforms. It's also why the lounge car and seated cars are Mk2 instead of Mk3 - they're shorter.

I dont think that's right, as there replacing the mk2's with mk3 seated / lounge coaches with the refurbishment plan of FSR (which includes painting 90's in Barbie livery)

Also, regarding the old formation of the sleeper, the logistics were very different, and the Fort William bit actually went to Kings Cross until the early/mid 1980's, so the Euston platform length issue never was an issue at one time, as the Aberdeen / Inverness / Fort William beds were once not all together.

 

[AlexS]

eWell, I think the train is 15 coaches now. 6? of those are Mk2s. Add the extra 3? metres longer that a Mk3 coach is and you have an extra 18 metres. That's quite a difference in terms of platform space and in a 15 coach train could in theory tip it over the edge at some of the stopping points (not sure how long Crewe, Preston etc platforms are).

My post may not be entirely relevant to the WHL, but it is true in it's entirity (except maybe about the 390 being built in Brum from new).

Foreign trains are unfortunately far better in quality than our own these days.

The debacle with the Brush Class 60s compared to the seamless introduction of the General Motors Class 59s a few years earlier (on arguably more demanding duties!) proved this rather nicely for the foreign companies.

Plus the foreign MU problem largely stems, I think, from the fact that the last British actual MU manufacturer (Hunslet TPL) went under just after producing the 323s.

All the former manufacturers are owned by foreign companies now, and have taken work outside of Britain.

Regardless of the West Highland Line, these days it annoys me that enthusiasts seem incapable of understanding exactly why the railways no longer buy British, even the British companies like First and National Express.

The Class 37s are wrecked. Unless you can invent a cure for bodyside corrosion and nose sag that costs less than running an already purchased Class 67 with a shareholder incentive, they are not cost effective.

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

y not just double head 20s, or 73s or other branchline-type locomotives?

Why should EWS portray their company image as one that runs grotty 40 year old Locomotives when they can show potential customers that they run modern, clean and reliable services.

Why? Because the so-called "grotty" (unpleasant or of bad quality - hardly applies to the 37s, does it?) locomotives are actually reliable, and offer a faster more efficient service than the 67s. Read Metrocammel's post.

AlexS - your post isn't really applicable to the West Highland Line.

At the end of the day, 67s are not suitable for the WHL and if EWS persist with their demands to remove 37s from the route, it could spell the end for the Fort William sleeper, and that would be very sad indeed.

 

[yorkie]

As previously mentioned in the topic, double-heading of locos is banned on the West Highland Line. (Certain classes can be double-headed in emergency situations, but not as a matter of course). Top n' tailing would be acceptable but would increase costs. The only currently viable good-value option is for Class 37 haulage.

Regarding the size of the sleeper, bear in mind that the seated & dining coach of the Fort William sleeper are detached at Edinburgh and if demand was there additional coaches could be attached nort of Edinburgh. Extra sleeping cars on the overall train are not an option, but if demand was there the Inverness Aberdeen portions could be shorterned at the expense of lengthening the Fort William portion. The current length reflects the demand, but that could change, and the Fort William sleeper is the hardest to book Bargain Berths for at the moment.

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

As previously mentioned in the topic, double-heading of locos is banned on the West Highland Line. (Certain classes can be double-headed in emergency situations, but not as a matter of course). Top n' tailing would be acceptable but would increase costs. The only currently viable good-value option is for Class 37 haulage.

Regarding the size of the sleeper, bear in mind that the seated & dining coach of the Fort William sleeper are detached at Edinburgh and if demand was there additional coaches could be attached nort of Edinburgh. Extra sleeping cars on the overall train are not an option, but if demand was there the Inverness Aberdeen portions could be shorterned at the expense of lengthening the Fort William portion. The current length reflects the demand, but that could change, and the Fort William sleeper is the hardest to book Bargain Berths for at the moment.

why is double heading restricted? axle weights? i've seen a 67 hauling railhead wagons northbound towards Ft William while I was on the 12xx out of ft bill. so that would be one slow train then.

 

[richa2002]

As previously mentioned in the topic, double-heading of locos is banned on the West Highland Line. (Certain classes can be double-headed in emergency situations, but not as a matter of course). Top n' tailing would be acceptable but would increase costs. The only currently viable good-value option is for Class 37 haulage.

Regarding the size of the sleeper, bear in mind that the seated & dining coach of the Fort William sleeper are detached at Edinburgh and if demand was there additional coaches could be attached nort of Edinburgh. Extra sleeping cars on the overall train are not an option, but if demand was there the Inverness Aberdeen portions could be shorterned at the expense of lengthening the Fort William portion. The current length reflects the demand, but that could change, and the Fort William sleeper is the hardest to book Bargain Berths for at the moment.

Has the double heading ban come in quite recently ? There have been plenty of double headed 37 tours over the WHL recently. http://www.srps.org.uk/railtours/archive/report04.htm#RT-0401

 

[matt]

There has definetely been a double headed 37 over the WHL this year

 

[metrocammel]

No, Ive heard about the double heading as well, and basically it means they couldnt have a train "booked" regularly to be double headed, so a railtour every now & then would be fine, but really double heading 73's or 20's is "pointless" in the fact that they are as "old" (and therefore no good to EWS!) as the current 37's so as I said the only option would be say a 66 with an "ETHEL" type generator, as the 67's are too heavy (and too slow) for the service- and Im sure if they went ahead with them the sleeper (and it's passengers who want a morning start in Fort Bill) would suffer.

Now, I agree that the 37's are getting on a bit (though arguably are still reliable on the FW service) they cannot last forever and when the time comes for a replacement, 67's will not be the sensible (though for EWS the easiest) anwser .

 

[Galvanize]

No, Ive heard about the double heading as well, and basically it means they couldnt have a train "booked" regularly to be double headed, so a railtour every now & then would be fine, but really double heading 73's or 20's is "pointless" in the fact that they are as "old" (and therefore no good to EWS!) as the current 37's so as I said the only option would be say a 66 with an "ETHEL" type generator, as the 67's are too heavy (and too slow) for the service- and Im sure if they went ahead with them the sleeper (and it's passengers who want a morning start in Fort Bill) would suffer.

Now, I agree that the 37's are getting on a bit (though arguably are still reliable on the FW service) they cannot last forever and when the time comes for a replacement, 67's will not be the sensible (though for EWS the easiest) anwser .

Double headed class 73s are not pointless, on diesel power they only have 600hp. If they do too much diesel power, they'll overheat and you won't be going anywhere in a hurry behind them.

 

[Techniquest]

Those who have commented on how modern, foreign stock is better (with the Desiros, let's not go there. We've got a Siemens fridge in the staff room, I reckon it'll go down in 6 months), congratulations, I agree. I'm actually beginning to enjoy the GM stock, bring on haulage behind a Yinger!

Don't get me wrong, 37s, 47s, OHLE locos or HSTs will always be preferred here, but 66s and 67s (heck, I'd have a 59 up front without concern!) are also entering my Rateable Traction lists. 66014 Edinburgh to Fort William, I'd not be fussed, it's loco haulage! It's not a unit. Best of all, it's a TRAIN, my preferred method of UK travel!

Anyway, I'd glad spm_43030 and 50149 entered the debate to raise their points, but like them I will leave this so-called 'debate' where it is, as it's simply stupid now. 37 fans dominate this discussion too much and they don't want to see improvements anywhere, ever, so long as the 37s still run. Fools. I'm jumping on the GM bandwagon while it's still fairly empty.

And with that, I conclude my opinions on this circular topic.

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

*looks at FGW Fan and points to another empty wagon travelling next to him*

there's only room for one ego on this bandwagon - that's MINE!

 

[yorkie]

Those who have commented on how modern, foreign stock is better (with Anyway, I'd glad spm_43030 and 50149 entered the debate to raise their points, but like them I will leave this so-called 'debate' where it is, as it's simply stupid now. 37 fans dominate this discussion too much and they don't want to see improvements anywhere, ever, so long as the 37s still run. Fools. I'm jumping on the GM bandwagon while it's still fairly empty.

I'd say the "fools" are the people who ignore the limitations and characteristics of the West Highland Line, and ignore the real issues.

 

[AlexS]

I'd say the physical condition of the Class 37s is a real issue.

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

i say who cares, it is still a loco hauled passenger train in the UK which is rather rare.

 

[RJ]

Apart from half hourly services from Liverpool Street to Norwich. Plus GNER services.

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

Apart from half hourly services from Liverpool Street to Norwich. Plus GNER services.

ok point taken. let me rephrase, loco haled train by a diesel locomotive with no DVT, and needs to run around the train, in the old school way, by which i define loco hauled (ie, the caledoinan sleepers from edinburgh to inverness/aberdeen, ft bill; the penzance sleeper; and erm... that's about it really).

 

[Techniquest]

Apart from half hourly services from Liverpool Street to Norwich. Plus GNER services.

ok point taken. let me rephrase, loco haled train by a diesel locomotive with no DVT, and needs to run around the train, in the old school way, by which i define loco hauled (ie, the caledoinan sleepers from edinburgh to inverness/aberdeen, ft bill; the penzance sleeper; and erm... that's about it really).

Yep, just the Edinburgh to Fort William/Inverness/Aberdeen sleepers, Paddington to Penzance 'Night Riveria', occasional ATW ADEXs (although those will end soon enough), that's it to my knowledge.

Oh, and Liverpool Street to Norwich isn't loco-hauled. That's the primary job of DBSOs and DVTs. Norwich to Liverpool Street on the other hand...Now THAT's loco haulage. :P

Re: your previous post, what do you mean about this forum only being big enough for one ego? Could just about squeeze me in there I reckon.

 

[Watcher In The Rye]

Apart from half hourly services from Liverpool Street to Norwich. Plus GNER services.

ok point taken. let me rephrase, loco haled train by a diesel locomotive with no DVT, and needs to run around the train, in the old school way, by which i define loco hauled (ie, the caledoinan sleepers from edinburgh to inverness/aberdeen, ft bill; the penzance sleeper; and erm... that's about it really).

Yep, just the Edinburgh to Fort William/Inverness/Aberdeen sleepers, Paddington to Penzance 'Night Riveria', occasional ATW ADEXs (although those will end soon enough), that's it to my knowledge.

Oh, and Liverpool Street to Norwich isn't loco-hauled. That's the primary job of DBSOs and DVTs. Norwich to Liverpool Street on the other hand...Now THAT's loco haulage. :P

Re: your previous post, what do you mean about this forum only being big enough for one ego? Could just about squeeze me in there I reckon.

i just don't want to open the whole debate over whether HSTs are DMUs or loco hauled, etc. but yeah.

nah, your head would explode as my ego would have sucked the intelligence out of you as ell as everyone else in here

 

[Techniquest]

*Grabs special ego-deflecting shield, special effects LOTR-style*

Re: Whether HSTs are loco-hauled or not, my opinion parks up in the loco-hauled camp. But that's a debate reserved for 2006, when we've run out of current news to debate over.