West Lothian buses

[Swanny200]

Think those are fair comments.

I think people obviously remembered stuff like North Devon and assumed that the First of 2018 would be the same as First 2012 despite evidence to the contrary. Also, the view that this might be more lucrative territory has been mentioned before (in terms of Winchburgh) but on a wider basis, it's probably seen as a growth area.

Of course, the whole impact of Covid on ridership and economics has skewed things. Still, I don't see either upping sticks any time soon and for the same reasons

• Lothian have made a substantial high profile investment and not on a whim
• First can't be seen to back down against such a high profile incursion or else it will be open season on all

That dynamic alone makes for interesting viewing

Talking about expansion, with Winchburgh there was this grand plan, (A Cinema and retail park was mentioned when I was still up there), in terms of W.L growth with new housing and expansion, has there been a lot of take up, I know that Whitburn obviously expanded westwards and obviously the likes of Armadale, the bottom end of Pumpherston and the new A89 estate between Uphall Station and Broxburn too got new housing, did the passenger numbers improve with all these new estates being built or did people just end up using their cars because of the proximity to the M8 and A89?

 

[smtglasgow]

I’ve no idea where they’ve got to with expanding Winchburgh, but the plans to build near the airport and next to RBS seem to be more advanced. The tram is a big factor here, but there’s still plenty of opportunities for bus services (especially if there’s some developer funding going). Having a few thousand homes around the Maybury area could transform the prospects of all the services travelling into Edinburgh from West Lothian along the A8, whoever is running them.

 

[Swanny200]

I’ve no idea where they’ve got to with expanding Winchburgh, but the plans to build near the airport and next to RBS seem to be more advanced. The tram is a big factor here, but there’s still plenty of opportunities for bus services (especially if there’s some developer funding going). Having a few thousand homes around the Maybury area could transform the prospects of all the services travelling into Edinburgh from West Lothian along the A8, whoever is running them.

Been a couple of years since I was there so I didn't know they were building next to RBS, I remember someone saying once that if they continued building in the Central Belt, you wouldn't know where Edinburgh stopped and Glasgow began.

 

[Bususer86]

I’ve no idea where they’ve got to with expanding Winchburgh.

They've got a good deal of housing done with more being built, an initial few retail bits (Sainsbury's local, dominoes, takeaway, relocated pharmacy) and have properly started on the new high school plus are on the way to starting the new junction to the motorway and building the marina.

Not sure what the plan is if there is any still there for the proposed rail station?

 

[Swanny200]

They've got a good deal of housing done with more being built, an initial few retail bits (Sainsbury's local, dominoes, takeaway, relocated pharmacy) and have properly started on the new high school plus are on the way to starting the new junction to the motorway and building the marina.

Not sure what the plan is if there is any still there for the proposed rail station?

I remember the Rail station being talked about before the new development was agreed, I would imagine it would have to be put at the bowling club end of town rather than the Station Road end, it is still a fair way from the new scheme at the far end of the town so if a station was built I suppose you might pick up some bus traffic from there to the railway station, I imagine Winchburgh to Edinburgh would be a damn sight quicker by rail than the bus.

 

[overthewater]

With the housing, the new developments are as it stands: West side of Whitburn (Heartlands) Winchburgh master plan, Pumpherston, Broxburn eastern side, the site around Armadale Rail station and the bit between East Calder and wiki which only has lothian service.. Unfortunately to answer Swanny200 it would seem most of these new users have stuck to using their cars or jumping on the trains as most of the train station ridership keeps on growing. The master plan for Winchburgh has still not even come close to half way yet, so were still got many years to come to get this fully completed. Train station is also still in the plans but that in part with the new Slip roads for the M9,

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In relation to the new West lothian tenders, well they never come out today. You have to wonder if they have been delayed again?

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Now to business, and the last page of replies. The loyalty on this thread is breathtaking and as TGW has said, it clearly colouring people perception of fair comment and observations. The words " WE TOLD YOU SO".. comes to mind so many times in this thread but its become clearly by the day certain people do not want to hear the truth... As Plato once said " no one is more hated than he who speaks the truth" and its a shame people dont like hearing it.

We told you, First were not going to disappear, They revised the network brought in better buses and got cheaper fares in, We told Green arrows are crap, WE told you original 281 was silly route,. we told you X17 was bad, we told the X38 has come far too late.. Everytime we try and make it clear its not going to work its like we're just anti Lothian, and didnt know what we were talking about, and it we just ended up making some people more bad tempered. Lothian should have come in earlier, and should have created better ideas, it is infuriating, how badly mismanaged and incompetent this venture has been along with ALL the money that has been wasted for what? Lothian two best route just copy cats of Eastern Scottish bus routes which have been around since the 1980s..

The lack of creativity has been so disappointing, and Lothian has not come in as some saviour, to save us from the nasty Firstbus because they had already upped it game well before Lothain come a knocking, that what people who are not on either side can see, we do not have any cloudy judgement. TGW is also right No-one is disputing the quality of service, the buses, the staff, the right to launch such a competitive venture, thats it. Its all higher up that caused this and I think the staff have been treated poorly with such bad management. Just throwing out some bus route was never going to cut it, I think this will have damaged Lothian reputation around West Lothian with the cuts that have already taken place. Lets not talk about the zone tickets.

Service X38 is now been scraped, along with the Green arrow, they should have back by now, Every other company in Scotland has now reinstated their near full network ( Lothian has a few minor gaps like no12, no36 which I think are staying every 30mins from this point wards, even the 45 has come back. ) The reason the X17 was changed was all LCB " X " operate into Edinburgh and its seems LCB has given up... Didn't we tell you they were never that busy. What is strange is, Broxburn is one of the areas which does not have Train station so it would been a good place to pick up more communtors I dont think all those people were heading into the Centre of Edinburgh

I don't think we have seen the END of LCB, not by a long shot but I think we will see further cut back, and will most likely only see the X18, X27/28 routes being left, with everything else getting the chop.

West Lothian will continue to grow, and they is possibility for more bus passengers within West Lothian area, including the Amazon, Sky, The Centre, while the trains will pick up everyone for parts of Edinburgh Park and Edinburgh City centre. Heartlands is promised a new park n ride with the M8. But traffic management and transport policy has failed and has still not going to be sorted, the two biggest flash points in Edinburgh is Bypass and Maybury road, and whats being done to fix that? Nothing...

If I was Lothian and I had all that money, I would have went into West Lothian with a complete different master plan ( that master plan from 2018 has clearly been proven to have failed)

* Created a new bolt on zone for the ride card
* Spoken with West lothian and Edinburgh council about taking on X40 earlier and boosting it to operate every 30mins between ERI Via Stration P&R - Hermiston P&R - livingston - St johns - Deans ( with new bus infrastructure at Gilmerton jct with the bypass to allow Dalkeith passengers to switch to this service) with a few extra peaks to allow direct buses into Edinburgh city centre, if people were able to buy Daytickets or use weekly 2 zone ridercards im sure many wouldn't mind switching buses
* New X20 route: Livingston to some parts of housing scheme- M8 - Ingliston to be combined with the 200 to operate every 15mins to North Edinburgh
* New fast route,
# Livingston - st Johns - Fastlink - Broxburn - winchburgh - Kirkliston, plus
# Livingston - st Johns - Fastlink - Broxburn around part of new scheme for commuters - edinburgh
Of course have the 38 every 30mins to plug the gap when first went to every 30mins.

With the Green Arrows:
Ex1 should have been Edinburgh - Western Approach road - Sighthill - ( a link bus to connect to south Gyle) - Hermiston - M8 - Boghall - Western inch - Whitburn. At least it give passenger a proper real choice.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Service X38 is now been scraped, along with the Green arrow, they should have back by now, Every other company in Scotland has now reinstated their near full network ( Lothian has a few minor gaps like no12, no36 which I think are staying every 30mins from this point wards, even the 45 has come back. ) The reason the X17 was changed was all LCB " X " operate into Edinburgh and its seems LCB has given up... Didn't we tell you they were never that busy. What is strange is, Broxburn is one of the areas which does not have Train station so it would been a good place to pick up more communtors I dont think all those people were heading into the Centre of Edinburgh

I don't think we have seen the END of LCB, not by a long shot but I think we will see further cut back, and will most likely only see the X18, X27/28 routes being left, with everything else getting the chop.

Do you honestly think that's going to happen - huge investment just to whittle it down to three routes running out of a whole new depot?

It's clearly been proven that the company is committed to stay - obviously parts of the venture haven't worked and aren't going to return. If they weren't committed then the covid-19 crisis would be the perfect 'excuse' to end or largely reduce the LCB operation with the furlough scheme ending next month.


What does the fact that they're not tell you? It might not be the outcome you desire but the facts speak for themselves....

 

[ScotRail158725]

Do you honestly think that's going to happen - huge investment just to whittle it down to three routes running out of a whole new depot?

It's clearly been proven that the company is committed to stay - obviously parts of the venture haven't worked and aren't going to return. If they weren't committed then the covid-19 crisis would be the perfect 'excuse' to end or largely reduce the LCB operation with the furlough scheme ending next month.


What does the fact that they're not tell you? It might not be the outcome you desire but the facts speak for themselves....

Have to agree there, covid has been a cop out for failing products and i though LC would go with the new management as thought it was 100% a goner whem covid struck but its clear now they’re here to stay (for a while at least)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do you honestly think that's going to happen - huge investment just to whittle it down to three routes running out of a whole new depot?

It's clearly been proven that the company is committed to stay - obviously parts of the venture haven't worked and aren't going to return. If they weren't committed then the covid-19 crisis would be the perfect 'excuse' to end or largely reduce the LCB operation with the furlough scheme ending next month.


What does the fact that they're not tell you? It might not be the outcome you desire but the facts speak for themselves....

I think @overthewater is suggesting that the depot would go. FWIW, I don't think that's likely given, as you say, the investment that has been made.

In terms of innovation, I don't think LCB can be criticised for copying some of the obvious routes as that is simply capitalising on established, obvious links. It's where they have done something different, such as the Green Arrows, that I question the rationale. Instead, they are now focusing on the core links within West Lothian and that's highlighted by their bolstering of those routes at the expense of other corridors/routes.

@Jordan Adam suggested that First could tweak things and pop a few more into the area to again seek to beat Lothian in sheer numbers, and that's probably where the focus should be. I don't see either party leaving in any great hurry.

 

[overthewater]

Edit: TGW is on the money again, from what I was trying to suggest .

I dont expect the depot to stay either, I believe the cost cutting which has just started will result in the company try to save money everywhere it goes and if the depots are freed up with more space then its would make more sense to move in a bid to save costs. The Huge investment in other parts of Lothian have started to be rolled back. Remember the old management is gone and the new one can do whatever it likes and it has already started do so. I think the 4 routes left at deans would be moved back to either longston and central.

They have already slashed and cut the PVR at deans by 14 aday already with the recent changes, ( they have cleary swapped 4 spare from theX17 to the new 281) so they clearly already going to be job losses unless people are moved to City routes. Or we just going to ignore that part right now? Job scheme ends shortly....

 

[Jordan Adam]

In terms of innovation, I don't think LCB can be criticised for copying some of the obvious routes as that is simply capitalising on established, obvious links. It's where they have done something different, such as the Green Arrows, that I question the rationale. Instead, they are now focusing on the core links within West Lothian and that's highlighted by their bolstering of those routes at the expense of other corridors/routes.

@Jordan Adam suggested that First could tweak things and pop a few more into the area to again seek to beat Lothian in sheer numbers, and that's probably where the focus should be. I don't see either party leaving in any great hurry.

The GreenArrow routes were not bad in concept but more implementation, i've probably said this before but their biggest issue was coverage, they didn't go anywhere and they weren't realistically speaking any better than the alternatives at an overall perspective (cost, journey time etc).

LCs best ideas in my opinion were the X18 (direct bus from Edinburgh-Broxburn to Bathgate, Armadale & Whitburn), 287 (direct link to Wester Inch) and rerouting the X27 to Whitburn, although First were quick on their tails with the X22 for the latter. LC also win when it comes to vehicles, albeit i do question if part of our perception of the vehicles is somewhat deluded as most of us are enthusiasts, enthusiasts have a bad habit of saying one operator is better than the other purely based on vehicle types, as i've said before the average punter couldn't tell a Streetlite and a B7RLE apart. LCs "worst" idea by far was the X17, a totally pointless route imo, Fauldhouse / West Calder don't have the demand for a direct bus link to Edinburgh, nor is there much 'cross county' trade to areas like Craigshill and Broxburn.

At this current moment i can't see Lothian pulling out, maybe in 6 months things will change but not at the moment, they have made a significant cutback (i think it's safe to assume the X38 isn't coming back), however i wouldn't say it's significant enough to say things are "over" for them. The increase in service to Bathgate isn't exactly anything major, it's 1 extra bus per hour, the only reason it's notable is because it means they offer the same frequency as First, however even then the service from Livingston to Armadale is being reduced to half hourly which is 1/3rd of what First offer (6 buses per hour). The main change is the new link between Fauldhouse and Bathgate, arguably the core passenger base will be between Whitburn and Bathgate as these are areas already served by LC (i can't imagine demand from Fauldhouse being strong) so the 281 will probably just take passengers off the slower X18, Birniehill is the only other area along that stretch of route and it's already served by the 287.

First could easily extend the X23/X24 and even the 26 to provide 4-6 extra buses per hour between Livingston and Bathgate however i do think fares will be the bigger factor rather than service frequency.

 

[CN04NRJ]

TGW is on the money again.

I dont expect the depot to stay either, I believe the cost cutting which has just started will result in the company try to save money everywhere it goes and if the depots are freed up with more space then its would make more sense to move in a bid to save costs. The Huge investment in other parts of Lothian have started to be rolled back. Remember the old management is gone and the new one can do whatever it likes and it has already started do so. I think the 4 routes left at deans would be moved back to either longston and central.

They have already slashed and cut the PVR at deans by 14 aday already with the recent changes, ( they have cleary swapped 4 spare from theX17 to the new 281) so they clearly already going to be job losses unless people are moved to City routes. Or we just going to ignore that part right now? Job scheme ends shortly....

In your (laughably 'non biased' ) doomsday scenario have you taken into account any further service increases that are going to happen before the end of October?

In terms of new management doing 'whatever they want so far' - all I've seen so far is the selling off of unrequired and unnecessary assets (vehicles) , downsizing of LMC (inevitably) and the cautiously optimistic reintroduction of services.

Everyone back in work by the end of October at LB/ECB/LCB is all I've heard - not so much as a hint at any redundancies (voluntary or otherwise). Unless you know something the rest of us don't?

You've seem to have forgotten the new single decks due in service soon (and resulting internal cascades) and in the other thread it's been suggested that the LB decker order is simply postponed until next year. So much for the end of investment.

 

[overthewater]

Everyone back in work by the end of October at LB/ECB/LCB is all I've heard - not so much as a hint at any redundancies (voluntary or otherwise). Unless you know something the rest of us don't?

I would be extremely surprised if the X38 or even Ex2 comes back in October, I think the TC would take a rather dim view that the coaches from Ex2 were sent of to well paid Rail contract work instead of being used on current bus network ( which they would have been paid for by Scottish goverment) thus they might not get them back on.

in the other thread it's been suggested that the LB decker order is simply postponed until next year. So much for the end of investment.

So is First group order and stagecoach order.

We have been here before every time Im seen where the winds is blowing... IF it doesn't and we see improvement between now and xmas I will humble bow down and say sorry, and say you were right alot with a few others. I know where the smart money would be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TGW is on the money again.

I dont expect the depot to stay either

For clarification, I expect Lothian to retain Livingston depot whereas @overthewater is suggesting otherwise.

 

[overthewater]

For clarification, I expect Lothian to retain Livingston depot whereas @overthewater is suggesting otherwise.

That is what I meant aswell. I was trying to say what TGW said about what I was trying to say was correct

Sorry TheGrandWazoo

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The GreenArrow routes were not bad in concept but more implementation, i've probably said this before but their biggest issue was coverage, they didn't go anywhere and they weren't realistically speaking any better than the alternatives at an overall perspective (cost, journey time etc).

I'd argue that that is the concept in where they run. The implementation (e.g. right vehicles, on schedule etc) was actually ok. Just the concept of running to towns with existing rail links and hoping to carve a niche with no real USP was the issue with Green Arrows but that's just my opinion.

 

[CN04NRJ]

So is First group order and stagecoach order.

Precisely, so investment isn't being rolled back just in the Lothians (as you said) - just postponed nationwide. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'd argue that that is the concept in where they run. The implementation (e.g. right vehicles, on schedule etc) was actually ok. Just the concept of running to towns with existing rail links and hoping to carve a niche with no real USP was the issue with Green Arrows but that's just my opinion.

By concept i was more referring to the idea of an express service under a separate brand with higher spec vehicles, although that doesn't matter too much. The best demand for such a service would've been Edinburgh - M8 - Boghall - Blackburn - Whitburn. That way you cover the areas that currently don't have a direct rail link to Edinburgh and as such potentially build up more local passengers.

The problem with the EX2 is that Linlithgow is at the edge of the Lothian Councils region, Lothian are unlikely to operate a service outside the region so it's unlikely that it would ever be extended. It's the same reason they don't have any services to Harthill.

 

[GusB]

This thread has caused arguments and division from the outset, and yet again we have the same old arguments being brought up yet again.

To discuss Lothian Country services, please do so here:

Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

New thread to discuss the service bus operations of Lothian Buses and subsidiaries - continuation of this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lothian-buses-and-ecb-discussion.151391/

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To discuss First's services in West Lothian, please do so here:

First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

Combined thread carrying on the discussion from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-midland-bluebird.130883/ and the First operations from here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-lothian-buses.166740/

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