West Lothian buses

[livi man]

They are still stealing first passengers so what is the problem doing same tour route. First are making more out off tours then lcb is on west Lothian

 

[scotrail158713]

That's going back a few decades. At deregulation, LRT extended their 44 from Juniper Green to Balerno and used numbers 83 and 84 for most journeys, which were limited stop - generally confined to the orange coloured fare stage stops. Eastern re-routed the existing 66 etc within the city centre to operate via Princes St. The history of depot locations is quite complicated too.
But although the route and number can play a significant part, there's more to a service attracting passengers and turning a profit than these things alone. Will be interesting to see what Bright Bus contribute to the choice for tourists during 2020.

Forgive me if I’m mistaken but didn’t it just get cut in 2012 and so ECB (or East Lothian Buses as it was at the time) started the 113?

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

What’s the peak requirement of x38 s .? I was looking up the bus times org site last week and seen 7 online on the map , are there any not showing up or is that it , 7 ?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I have to be honest. This is my own view and I will openly admit now before I go on that I have a slight preference to LC but that’s only because it’s handy for me in the mornings heading out to Sighthill, can use my Ridacard and be from City to Sighthill campus in 15 minutes, now you may say the tram does that but it’s rare you get a seat on the tram and I’ve always found the the majority of the tram staff to be quite abrupt, one or two are ok but the rest I’ve seen are just so miserable. Now the X27/X28 is every 15 minutes it’s so much easier, and on some occasions it’s actually faster than the tram, why aren’t LC trying to go for this market, students want to save time and money - it’s a perfect market to go for. LC have been very slow at doing quite a few things. Getting an X38 going, missing parts of routes out that we’re obvious to name a few. LC kept running out of Longstone for ages until they finally got Deans depot which was as far as I’m concerned well below the standards I’d expect from Lothian, now undoubtedly Lothian have got money to play with? Yes. But they keep missing markets that are there for the taking and that’s what’s gonna continue to slow this all down. Network changes were ok but mistakes were made there too. When they miss out an area they keep a pointless bit going. They’ve finally started to change that from the last set of changes. I’m not saying you can’t make mistakes but I’m sorry some of the things LC have done have been daft. The word tickets has been covered more than enough so don’t need to cover that area. They’ve done some good things too, even if it has taken this long to get there.

First changed the network last August to better suit the markets, now that was about time but they still do what bothers me about first, running the wrong buses on the wrong routes. 600’s ending up on 23/24/25 and so on... I get why first changed the network to run from Singles but surely the 23/X23 are busier than the 600, someone prove me wrong please.

I mean I did see a bright bus tour heading into Edinburgh from Deans Yesterday and driver was holding hot drink in one hand and driving the bus with the other. So first aren’t perfect either you know!

Now whilst all of us say First/LC/whoever is better. This is actually not a good thing overall, in the long run when it does all settle down (whoever may win) it’s gonna lead to a much smaller bus network for West Lothian than before LC arrived, I reckon the vast majority of subsidised routes will be gone or scaled back along with Independents services, look at Blue bus for example.

Whoever’s side you may be on just think again what does it actually mean for the passenger? Who knows...

 

[Jordan Adam]

tbh First just run deckers on the 600 for marketing reasons, much the same with Lothian and the X27/X28/275 when they first launched.

Would make more sense to have the E400MMCs on the full length 25s though imo.

 

[PaulMc7]

I have to be honest. This is my own view and I will openly admit now before I go on that I have a slight preference to LC but that’s only because it’s handy for me in the mornings heading out to Sighthill, can use my Ridacard and be from City to Sighthill campus in 15 minutes, now you may say the tram does that but it’s rare you get a seat on the tram and I’ve always found the the majority of the tram staff to be quite abrupt, one or two are ok but the rest I’ve seen are just so miserable. Now the X27/X28 is every 15 minutes it’s so much easier, and on some occasions it’s actually faster than the tram, why aren’t LC trying to go for this market, students want to save time and money - it’s a perfect market to go for. LC have been very slow at doing quite a few things. Getting an X38 going, missing parts of routes out that we’re obvious to name a few. LC kept running out of Longstone for ages until they finally got Deans depot which was as far as I’m concerned well below the standards I’d expect from Lothian, now undoubtedly Lothian have got money to play with? Yes. But they keep missing markets that are there for the taking and that’s what’s gonna continue to slow this all down. Network changes were ok but mistakes were made there too. When they miss out an area they keep a pointless bit going. They’ve finally started to change that from the last set of changes. I’m not saying you can’t make mistakes but I’m sorry some of the things LC have done have been daft. The word tickets has been covered more than enough so don’t need to cover that area. They’ve done some good things too, even if it has taken this long to get there.

First changed the network last August to better suit the markets, now that was about time but they still do what bothers me about first, running the wrong buses on the wrong routes. 600’s ending up on 23/24/25 and so on... I get why first changed the network to run from Singles but surely the 23/X23 are busier than the 600, someone prove me wrong please.

I mean I did see a bright bus tour heading into Edinburgh from Deans Yesterday and driver was holding hot drink in one hand and driving the bus with the other. So first aren’t perfect either you know!

Now whilst all of us say First/LC/whoever is better. This is actually not a good thing overall, in the long run when it does all settle down (whoever may win) it’s gonna lead to a much smaller bus network for West Lothian than before LC arrived, I reckon the vast majority of subsidised routes will be gone or scaled back along with Independents services, look at Blue bus for example.

Whoever’s side you may be on just think again what does it actually mean for the passenger? Who knows...

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. It's definitely not a great position for West Lothian customers at all at the minute with First and Lothian battling so much. They'll just keep taking each other's revenue from routes and that'll just be cuts constantly as a result. Makes me glad to be in Glasgow tbh as we've not got majorly serious competition in most areas. First run the show by a long way and even then there's been a major drop in bus usage and constant cuts. Granted intention to sell also plays a part in that though. I've only ever used Lothian in Edinburgh a couple of times and they're fairly good but I've never used either company in West Lothian at all so can't really comment there

 

[Siemens Trains]

What’s the peak requirement of x38 s .? I was looking up the bus times org site last week and seen 7 online on the map , are there any not showing up or is that it , 7 ?

Could be wrong but I thought it would be eight vehicles.
From what I can make out the standard daytime journey length is 2hrs 40mins for the round trip (including layover) and the frequency is three buses per hour. I'm assuming this covers peak times as well and that the X38 has dedicated stock that no other service runs from.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

How do they cope with timings then ,is that enough or are they late all the time .

 

[Siemens Trains]

How do they cope with timings then ,is that enough or are they late all the time .

The layover at Linlithgow seems quite generous, typically 18 minutes. In the city centre it's a further 12 minutes. So you'd think running to time would be possible, making the X38 more dependable than the offering from First, which seems to attract some criticism for poor punctuality. However given the present state of the East End there's plenty scope for timetables to go badly wrong despite the best of plans.

 

[gavin1985]

So I got on the X18 at Drumbrae at 7am this morning, after using the Lothian 21 from the new builds at Sighthill. Having bought the city West day saver on the m-ticket app, showed it to the driver. He sat there and tried to argue that it wasn't valid in the city.
Even after showing the ticket purchase option on the app he still argued, my reaction was, ok how could I get the tram then?? It clearly says City and City West. Which he still argued with be saying its not valid in the city. He ended up giving up and saying "just get on I'm not going to argue with you".

How do the drivers not know correct the fare zones on the m-ticket app?
cityWEST DAYticket - cityWEST, city zone and on Lothian Buses

Has anyone else had this issue before? It was the first for me after a year on and off using the ticket to get to Newbridge and back from town. Sent a message to Lothian Country on Facebook as soon as I got on this, got a reply and apology from this as I typed this comment. They will "pass the feedback onto drivers on this route".

 

[Baileygirl]

Must be one of their friendly drivers people keep going on about.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Bus 103's panel has been repainted. https://www.flickr.com/photos/126644399@N06/49128392187/in/pool-3426208@N20/ (Not my photo)

 

[Bus9120UK]

Bus 184 on the X27 today.
Bus 829 on the 43 today.
Also looks like the 275 is being operated by only Single Deck vehicles today.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Bus 184 on the X27 today.
Bus 829 on the 43 today.
Also looks like the 275 is being operated by only Single Deck vehicles today.

the 275 has been allocated 103-107 since the timetable change, 829 was on the X28 yesterday. 184 was on the X18 aswell however the X18/X27 interwork at Whitburn (stupidest thing LC have done so far)

 

[Bus9120UK]

the 275 has been allocated 103-107 since the timetable change, 829 was on the X28 yesterday. 184 was on the X18 aswell however the X18/X27 interwork at Whitburn (stupidest thing LC have done so far)

On Sunday it was double decks on the 275. I agree with you about the X18 & X27 interworking.

 

[Lothian285]

Also 760 was on the 280 yesterday and is on the X28 today.

 

[Siemens Trains]

So I got on the X18 at Drumbrae at 7am this morning, after using the Lothian 21 from the new builds at Sighthill. Having bought the city West day saver on the m-ticket app, showed it to the driver. He sat there and tried to argue that it wasn't valid in the city.
Even after showing the ticket purchase option on the app he still argued, my reaction was, ok how could I get the tram then?? It clearly says City and City West. Which he still argued with be saying its not valid in the city. He ended up giving up and saying "just get on I'm not going to argue with you".

How do the drivers not know correct the fare zones on the m-ticket app?
cityWEST DAYticket - cityWEST, city zone and on Lothian Buses

Has anyone else had this issue before? It was the first for me after a year on and off using the ticket to get to Newbridge and back from town. Sent a message to Lothian Country on Facebook as soon as I got on this, got a reply and apology from this as I typed this comment. They will "pass the feedback onto drivers on this route".

Can't say I've had such an issue, although I don't tend to buy day tickets any more and just stick to contactless capping. I'm not sure if capping works on the X18 yet though.

In general I've found that bus drivers aren't especially clued-up on ticket validity but on Lothian they tend to give passengers the benefit of the doubt. They don't go out of their way to antagonise passengers and a courteous explanation usually does the trick if there are any misunderstandings. Not sure that mentioning the tram as justification would have helped clarify anything to the bus driver.

I did have continual problems with Stagecoach drivers being very wary of One-Ticket, often requesting authorisation over the radio, but I was only once thrown off (going about half a mile down the road so was happy to walk anyway).

What has probably happened in your case is that the driver mistook the CityWEST DAYTicket for CountryWEST DAYTicket, both of which are £5. For services like the X18 (which do very little trade in the cityWEST zone) drivers are probably more familiar with either lothianWEST DAYTickets at £7.50, valid in the city, or CountryWEST DAYTickets at £5, not valid in the city.

 

[Weemidi135]

829 on the 43s today

 

[Siemens Trains]

829 on the 43s today

Another case of a bus drawing up squint at this location making it difficult to pass on the offside if the 63 is in the other stance.

Obviously you can burl around the square if school coaches (for example) need to turn. But for a new terminus the design seems quite badly thought-out.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Another case of a bus drawing up squint at this location making it difficult to pass on the offside if the 63 is in the other stance.

Obviously you can burl around the square if school coaches (for example) need to turn. But for a new terminus the design seems quite badly thought-out.

Most new terminus layouts seem poorly thought out and done on the cheap.

 

[overthewater]

It's refreshing to see proper and well thought out post on this thread, instead of pure bias in peoples replies.

Actually what does it mean for the passenger? Well, I'll tell you what it means if LCB wins.. It means the hardcore first passengers that couldn't afford to switch to LCB will be royally screwed when their only ticketing options is pay more for less.. If anyone believe that is a good outcome, well I just don't know, how people can accept this.

What I said last week is just as true this week.. FIRST 38 and LCB X38 during off peak are carrying 4 to 5 passengers if your lucky, neither is going to set the heather alight. No one is going to break eve.

I have to be honest. This is my own view and I will openly admit now before I go on that I have a slight preference to LC but that’s only because it’s handy for me in the mornings heading out to Sighthill, can use my Ridacard and be from City to Sighthill campus in 15 minutes, now you may say the tram does that but it’s rare you get a seat on the tram and I’ve always found the the majority of the tram staff to be quite abrupt, one or two are ok but the rest I’ve seen are just so miserable. Now the X27/X28 is every 15 minutes it’s so much easier, and on some occasions it’s actually faster than the tram, why aren’t LC trying to go for this market, students want to save time and money - it’s a perfect market to go for. LC have been very slow at doing quite a few things. Getting an X38 going, missing parts of routes out that we’re obvious to name a few. LC kept running out of Longstone for ages until they finally got Deans depot which was as far as I’m concerned well below the standards I’d expect from Lothian, now undoubtedly Lothian have got money to play with? Yes. But they keep missing markets that are there for the taking and that’s what’s gonna continue to slow this all down. Network changes were ok but mistakes were made there too. When they miss out an area they keep a pointless bit going. They’ve finally started to change that from the last set of changes. I’m not saying you can’t make mistakes but I’m sorry some of the things LC have done have been daft. The word tickets has been covered more than enough so don’t need to cover that area. They’ve done some good things too, even if it has taken this long to get there.

First changed the network last August to better suit the markets, now that was about time but they still do what bothers me about first, running the wrong buses on the wrong routes. 600’s ending up on 23/24/25 and so on... I get why first changed the network to run from Singles but surely the 23/X23 are busier than the 600, someone prove me wrong please.

I mean I did see a bright bus tour heading into Edinburgh from Deans Yesterday and driver was holding hot drink in one hand and driving the bus with the other. So first aren’t perfect either you know!

Now whilst all of us say First/LC/whoever is better. This is actually not a good thing overall, in the long run when it does all settle down (whoever may win) it’s gonna lead to a much smaller bus network for West Lothian than before LC arrived, I reckon the vast majority of subsidised routes will be gone or scaled back along with Independents services, look at Blue bus for example.

Whoever’s side you may be on just think again what does it actually mean for the passenger? Who knows...

 

[Jordan Adam]

FIRST 38 and LCB X38 during off peak are carrying 4 to 5 passengers if your lucky, neither is going to set the heather alight. No one is going to break eve.

This

"Some people" seem to think the X38 is going to be a huge money maker with busy buses all day. But in reality on most runs it's going to run very quite (near empty), this is not the fault of Lothian or the X38 but just down to the fact that demand isn't very high along the corridor and it's very over saturated with buses. You've got 7 buses per hour (9 from Linlithgow) off peak along a corridor that in reality off peak would probably easily get away with just 2 per hour. There will be peak buses that get busy, however that's a very small portion of the day in comparison, you're talking a half a dozen runs each direction per day. First's 38 may remain profitable as a whole, however most if not all of that will be down to the Linlithgow - Stirling sections.

 

[Weemidi135]

Another case of a bus drawing up squint at this location making it difficult to pass on the offside if the 63 is in the other stance.

Obviously you can burl around the square if school coaches (for example) need to turn. But for a new terminus the design seems quite badly thought-out.

Do you have a PCV Licence? Do you often drive into said bus stop??

 

[overthewater]

This

"Some people" seem to think the X38 is going to be a huge money maker with busy buses all day. But in reality on most runs it's going to run very quite (near empty), this is not the fault of Lothian or the X38 but just down to the fact that demand isn't very high along the corridor and it's very over saturated with buses. You've got 7 buses per hour (9 from Linlithgow) off peak along a corridor that in reality off peak would probably easily get away with just 2 per hour. There will be peak buses that get busy, however that's a very small portion of the day in comparison, you're talking a half a dozen runs each direction per day. First's 38 may remain profitable as a whole, however most if not all of that will be down to the Linlithgow - Stirling sections.

The biggest flash point when the 38 run every 30mins was Saturdays, It might be more worthwhile just having 20mins service overall. I think even with all the extra housing being built, demand for Edinburgh off peak will still not raise to make it worthwhile running every 15mins, People in winchburgh might rather go to Linlithgow, Broxburn for the pool or even Livingston ( the later 2 have a 30min service so that is enough) Kirkilton also has Gyle etc People will still take this the wrong way.

Come January another bus is added into the mix, with the Winchburgh bus grant.

There will be further changes in January, the reason for the temp is because the 22 changed in October and there is a 90 day clause. Would it not have made more sense to just clamp on existing 22 as the buses have 2min layover at Eastfield, and made it a though service? I wonder if something bigger is afoot.

First Scotland east new service
Bus registration details

• Registration number
  PM0000923/348
• Licence Number PM0000923
• Variation number 0
• Status New
• Service number. 701,
• Service type Normal Stopping
• Start point Whitburn Cros
• Finish point Shotts Springhill Road
• Via Harthill
• Date received - 14 Nov 2019
• Effective date - 23 Dec 2019
• End date - 25 Jan 2020

• Supported by subsidies? No

 

[Siemens Trains]

Do you have a PCV Licence? Do you often drive into said bus stop??

No, I can't claim any experience in this field at all. My comment wasn't relating to your own competence but because it seems quite difficult to bring buses into this new terminus. The bus in the photo is squint with respect to the kerb line, something I imagine you wouldn't do deliberately. Of course I could be wrong - maybe it's easy to park up within the marked box.

As you probably know, the shelter here was demolished by a bus not long after it opened. Obviously I have no idea exactly how that happened but I could speculate that the difficulty of turning a bus exactly into the right position had something to do with it.

The frustrating thing is that this teminus is new and was a condition for the housing development. I feel the developer didn't want to set aside any more than the bare minimum amount of land, and this has led to a design that is a bit too tight in everyday use.

 

[overthewater]

Yet there is two bay for the bus to pull into. Also there were plans to have a thought road instead of that bus stop but I'm lead to believe First made no real effort to change it?

 

[Siemens Trains]

Yet there is two bay for the bus to pull into. Also there were plans to have a thought road instead of that bus stop but I'm lead to believe First made no real effort to change it?

The other bay is used by the 63, also taking layover here.

At the moment it isn't too congested because there are fewer bus movements than in the past, so I know it sounds like I'm making a fuss about nothing. But when the terminus was envisaged there was also Davidson's 474 bus which terminated here, and Horsburgh's 7 passed through hourly (now it is just occasional). Thinking about it the 63 came and went twice per hour at that time - not sure if it actually terminated here or at Tesco. School coaches need to turn here as well, but that's just twice per weekday.

I think you're correct that First didn't make much effort to contribute to the design. In those days First had two 43s taking layover at this end, to avoid having two vehicles in the bus station at the same time. But with no interest in the other services and considering the short-sighted attitude that prevailed at that time I image they wouldn't get too involved. As you say, the idea of a through route for buses was thrown out because First had no plans to change the existing 43 route. Thinking about it, even in 2013 they may well have known they would never need to use the new terminus.

I understand there was a hope that a bus terminus in the development could be located closer to the railway station, allowing alternative ways of travelling here and perhaps meaning rail replacement buses could have used it.

Anyway, this is a little off topic as only the 7 is a true West Lothian service.

 

[Baileygirl]

There will be further changes in January, the reason for the temp is because the 22 changed in October and there is a 90 day clause. Would it not have made more sense to just clamp on existing 22 as the buses have 2min layover at Eastfield, and made it a though service? I wonder if something bigger is afoot.

The 22 has not changed since May although other services were changed in October.

I notice that the X27 going through Eliburn is lightly loaded off peak. Could this be that it now takes a longer route to/from the Centre or are passengers snubbing it due to the Blue Bus drivers blaming Lothian for their services being withdrawn.

Also heard that West Lothian Council are paying for the 71 through Breich but has not said who is running it.

 

[overthewater]

The 22 has not changed since May although other services were changed in October.

It clearly did get a change in October.
Bus registration details

• Registration number PM0000923/333
• Licence Number PM0000923
• Variation number 3
• Status Registered
• Service number. 22
• Service type Normal Stopping
• Start point Harthill, Eastfield
• Finish point Livingston, the Centre
• Via Whitburn, Blackburn, Seafeild, Livingston Village
• Date received 13 Sep 2019
• Effective date 28 Oct 2019
• End date
• Supported by subsidies? In Part
• Local authorities covered by route Strathclyde Partnership for Transport West Lothian Council

 

[Baileygirl]

Yes you're right, they removed the late evening buses when West Lothian Council removed the funding