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West Lothian buses

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Man of Kent

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Lothian Country in total has a PVR of 63

63 buses will need an income of somewhere in the order of £9m to £10m a year* - I suspect at the upper end if LCB's costs are anything like the parent company. If First has only lost £0.9m in revenue, then LCB has a mountain to climb to get near breakeven, never mind make a profit.
*For comparison, Reading publishes a revenue per PVR figure of £150k in its accounts, but barely makes a profit.

Because buying separate Lothian and First tickets in the past was expensive and inconvenient, I often drove to Ingliston Park and Ride and used the tram to get into town if I needed to go to several places. Now I use the X38 instead.

In which case, it sounds as though First haven't lost much revenue from you, and Lothian "group" hasn't gained as much - just the few extra pennies over the tram fare. An even bigger revenue mountain to climb.
 
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Driver362

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63 buses will need an income of somewhere in the order of £9m to £10m a year* - I suspect at the upper end if LCB's costs are anything like the parent company. If First has only lost £0.9m in revenue, then LCB has a mountain to climb to get near breakeven, never mind make a profit.
*For comparison, Reading publishes a revenue per PVR figure of £150k in its accounts, but barely makes a profit.



In which case, it sounds as though First haven't lost much revenue from you, and Lothian "group" hasn't gained as much - just the few extra pennies over the tram fare. An even bigger revenue mountain to climb.
Out of interest What is included in the 150k per pvr? Is this buying, maintaining and servicing. Fuel and drivers wages. I assume some of that goes towards self insurance pot too?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Out of interest What is included in the 150k per pvr? Is this buying, maintaining and servicing. Fuel and drivers wages. I assume some of that goes towards self insurance pot too?
£150k seems a bit heavy. I usually went with £120k all up cost per vehicle per year (maybe I’m cheap) but obviously, depends on the quality of fleet, length of depreciation etc. However, it should cover fuel, maintenance, driver all up costs, mngt and admin, insurances, depot costs etc.

That LCB will have lost a fair sum in that period (up to March) is fairly evident. However, they will have budgeted for some losses obviously. Whether the budget expectations have been met, you can’t say. Nor if the trend was meeting target.
 

overthewater

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Both operators run more-or-less the same corridors from WL into town, not serving the two main hospitals and most university and college campuses. Those nurses and students may have no choice.

It could all change if lcb bids for the x40. I also believe one of them should try again with direct link to North Edinburgh. Hopefully this time silly manamgement will not destroy the route. This would open up a whole new connections for passengers.
 

gavin1985

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Just wanted to throw in my thoughts on all this.
So I live in new builds next to the Sighthill College and I work in Newbridge. For 99% of the time until recently I drove into work with being 10-15 minute drive, however circumstances with the Mrs has changed, she works in the Royal Infirmary and unless its nights or weekends plain refuses to pay for parking, so she buses it to work. Over the past few months I have tested out getting the bus to/from work so we could get rid of one car. At the end of November, I decided it was time to hand my car back (being on lease) and take the plunge to car share.

During the test runs I used the 63 from Sighthill at 650am which gets me to Newbridge just after 710, then a short walk up to the dealership estate for SGN, which isn't too bad, although it feels like a long journey as the bus isn't a limited stop. My other test was to get the 21 on Broomhouse Road and get off at Tesco/PC World then switch over to the X18, this involved a 10 minute wait for the X18. Personally I prefer the X18 due to the limited stops over the 63, even though overall due to the waiting times on the X18 the 63 is the quicker option.

Getting home is entirely different, Newbridge roundabout is a sh!t hole and could easily be waiting up to 10 minutes just to get past it. The route of the 63 isn't the best as it has to deal with Old Liston Road, which can just be soul destroying. For me LCB is the better option getting home, with the introduction of the X38 now gives me the option of the 275, X17, X18 and X38 to Gogar where I get off and switch over to the tram, so I don't have to sit and deal with Gyle traffic on the bus, that being said I could get the 300/400/20 up along Bankhead Avenue, although having done this route to save a 5 minute walk I ended up being stuck at traffic waiting to get onto the roundabout at Calder Road resulting in taking 10 minutes longer than getting the tram and having a slightly longer walk, unless its bank holidays I get the tram and get off at Bankhead, giving myself a 10 minute walk.

Long story short, as I only travel in the City and CityWest Zones I would either have to pay £5 for a CityWest Day saver, which there is no bundle packages. Potentially costing me £25 for a week or £100 for the month. Thankfully the Ridacard provides travel CityWest Zones not just City zones. This is what I just do not understand, why there is no Ridacard options outside of the City and CityWest zones?
First buses for me is just not viable option for where I stay and work to get any First buses, this is 1 of the many reasons why I pick Lothian over First. Obviously living in Edinburgh gives me the Lothian bus/tram network.

My guess is, for many people it is all down to where you live and where you work will determine what buses you will get. That being said of course, as many has already pointed out that the car is the main choice for most, which it was with me for at least 8 years due to poor connections in Newbridge for Lothian buses.
If and big if/when LCB introduce Ridacard use on the West only zones, then this is where either they will acquire new passengers or people might switch from First to LCB.
 

Observer

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*I'd assume the X38 number is just admin error at the DVSA side of things.
Or it's getting renumbered because LCB is using it as well.

Just to prove I'm not completely biased, I'm currently on a First 38 from Linlithgow to Winchburgh. It's the only journey I'm making today, so I didn't feel like waiting 20 minutes for an X38.

However, the X38 is 60p cheaper, and this bus is in a terrible state, with loose trim and ingrained dirt everywhere.
Still seeing Scanias getting put on the route, probably what you got.
 
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Or it's getting renumbered because LCB is using it as well.
Perhaps First are expecting to pick up the contract for Edinburgh Council's tendered 38 service between Granton and the Royal Infirmary. Hence one of them would need to be renumbered.
 

ChrisPJ

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Perhaps First are expecting to pick up the contract for Edinburgh Council's tendered 38 service between Granton and the Royal Infirmary. Hence one of them would need to be renumbered.

Worked presumably from Deans which is the nearest depot. Unlikely to contribute anything to the company’s profits
 

oldman

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First have used X for routes running limited-stop in the city before, including the 38. Makes sense to do what LCB have done. Unfortunately they can't make the 23 into an X23 because there they're using that for a different route.

The Lothian 38 is only partly supported by the council, most of it is commercial.
 

scotrail158713

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Just wanted to throw in my thoughts on all this.
So I live in new builds next to the Sighthill College and I work in Newbridge. For 99% of the time until recently I drove into work with being 10-15 minute drive, however circumstances with the Mrs has changed, she works in the Royal Infirmary and unless its nights or weekends plain refuses to pay for parking, so she buses it to work. Over the past few months I have tested out getting the bus to/from work so we could get rid of one car. At the end of November, I decided it was time to hand my car back (being on lease) and take the plunge to car share.

During the test runs I used the 63 from Sighthill at 650am which gets me to Newbridge just after 710, then a short walk up to the dealership estate for SGN, which isn't too bad, although it feels like a long journey as the bus isn't a limited stop. My other test was to get the 21 on Broomhouse Road and get off at Tesco/PC World then switch over to the X18, this involved a 10 minute wait for the X18. Personally I prefer the X18 due to the limited stops over the 63, even though overall due to the waiting times on the X18 the 63 is the quicker option.

Getting home is entirely different, Newbridge roundabout is a sh!t hole and could easily be waiting up to 10 minutes just to get past it. The route of the 63 isn't the best as it has to deal with Old Liston Road, which can just be soul destroying. For me LCB is the better option getting home, with the introduction of the X38 now gives me the option of the 275, X17, X18 and X38 to Gogar where I get off and switch over to the tram, so I don't have to sit and deal with Gyle traffic on the bus, that being said I could get the 300/400/20 up along Bankhead Avenue, although having done this route to save a 5 minute walk I ended up being stuck at traffic waiting to get onto the roundabout at Calder Road resulting in taking 10 minutes longer than getting the tram and having a slightly longer walk, unless its bank holidays I get the tram and get off at Bankhead, giving myself a 10 minute walk.

Long story short, as I only travel in the City and CityWest Zones I would either have to pay £5 for a CityWest Day saver, which there is no bundle packages. Potentially costing me £25 for a week or £100 for the month. Thankfully the Ridacard provides travel CityWest Zones not just City zones. This is what I just do not understand, why there is no Ridacard options outside of the City and CityWest zones?
First buses for me is just not viable option for where I stay and work to get any First buses, this is 1 of the many reasons why I pick Lothian over First. Obviously living in Edinburgh gives me the Lothian bus/tram network.

My guess is, for many people it is all down to where you live and where you work will determine what buses you will get. That being said of course, as many has already pointed out that the car is the main choice for most, which it was with me for at least 8 years due to poor connections in Newbridge for Lothian buses.
If and big if/when LCB introduce Ridacard use on the West only zones, then this is where either they will acquire new passengers or people might switch from First to LCB.
I think you’ve hit it nail on - Lothian works for some, First works for some.
There’s just some members who, rightly or wrongly, have a love, or hate, for one company over the other, and couldn’t comprehend using the “other one”.
 

PaulMc7

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I think you’ve hit it nail on - Lothian works for some, First works for some.
There’s just some members who, rightly or wrongly, have a love, or hate, for one company over the other, and couldn’t comprehend using the “other one”.

For me as a neutral who never needs to use either it's just good to see a proper, long term battle between 2 different operators. People will prefer one or the other as expected but that's a good thing. Think it will go on a good while yet too
 

Stopper

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To be honest, I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘some people prefer Lothian, some people prefer first’.

First ran the 38 for years and years and routinely provided an awful, uncomfortable, unreliable service. I regularly used it for some time between the likes of Newbridge, Winchburgh, Linlithgow and Stirling etc. It seemed to be late around 60-70% of the time, especially the further East you went. Their buses were/are uncomfortable, dirty and had things rattling about for the entire journey. It got to the point that you simply couldn’t rely on First to provide you with a bus journey, especially if you needed to be somewhere for a certain time (buses were regularly over half an hour late as recently as last year).

Lothian have appeared in the last year (perhaps at the right time, after ScotRail shafted Linlithgow and First were continuing to be poor), and provided Linlithgow (and now the entire Lin-Edi corridor) with very high quality buses and high quality reliability. The EX2 is an excellent service, and is very busy at peak times. The X38 is a far superior service to the First 38 in every single way. Lothian have better buses, better seats, better Wi-Fi and better reliability. These aren’t really a matter of opinion, they are just true. I’m not convinced that First will survive East of Linlithgow.
 
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For me as a neutral who never needs to use either it's just good to see a proper, long term battle between 2 different operators. People will prefer one or the other as expected but that's a good thing. Think it will go on a good while yet too
Actually, I can't really understand why a neutral would view a long term battle between 2 operators as a good thing. This 'war' is just de-stabilising the West Lothian market and I don't see much growth happening. There is definitely not enough demand for the number of buses per hour that most of the routes now have. Both operators will be shelling out for buses that are little use to passengers either because they bought a return ticket, m-ticket, season pass etc tying them into one particular company, or because both services are running together. But inevitably passengers still need to pay for the waste and losses incurred when an operator drops out, as the other will be damaged finanically and have to recover its outlay. That may well mean higher fares, reduced frequency, less resources and shorter routes in future than you might have had otherwise.
 

livi man

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Well done to lothian for working Christmas and new year and giving first guys well deserved rest
 

ScotRail158725

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One thing i have noticed is how terrible the X38 branding is, all of them having coning off at the corners if it hasnt already fell off
 

Volvodart

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The new timetables are now up on the First website. It appears only the X38 is running with no other numbers. So the 27 is serving Ladywell West most of the day apart from the morning peak..
 
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Jordan Adam

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To summarise the changes in full

21: Minor changes.
X22: Renumbered from 22, All journeys now operate Shotts to Edinburgh, X22/X23 offer a 15 minute frequency between Edinburgh and Howden Road. In the evening the X22 operates half hourly Edinburgh - Livingston with a hourly extension to Whitburn.
23: Timeable missing, looks like there's no real change though, based on the times of the X23/X24 there will now be a 10 minute frequency between The Centre and Deans North on the 23/X23/X24 combined.
X23: Now operates Edinburgh - Deans North. Combines with Service X22, There's now a 7 day half hourly service across the majority of the route.
X24/X25: Renumbered from 24/25, Minor timetable alterations, i'd assume there's also a change to stopping places.
26/26A: Minor changes.
27: Extended to Ladywell West.
600: STILL OPERATES TO WHITBURN, minor changes i'd assume to adapt around the X22
X38: Renumbered from 38... Minor changes.

Quite a good set of changes, it's almost as if First and Lothian were listen to what i had been saying continuously months back in that another Edinburgh - Bathgate service was pointless and that they should focus on a Edinburgh - Blackburn - Whitburn service! Obviously the X22 offering a half hourly service to Shotts will be a huge bonus too.
 
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lastbus

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To summarise the changes in full

21: Minor changes.
X22: Renumbered from 22, All journeys now operate Shotts to Edinburgh, X22/X23 offer a 15 minute frequency between Edinburgh and Howden Road. In the evening the X22 operates half hourly Edinburgh - Livingston with a hourly extension to Whitburn.
23: Timeable missing, looks like there's no real change though, based on the times of the X23/X24 there will now be a 10 minute frequency between The Centre and Deans North on the 23/X23/X24 combined.
X23: Now operates Edinburgh - Deans North. Combines with Service X22, There's now a 7 day half hourly service across the majority of the route.
X24/X25: Renumbered from 24/25, Minor timetable alterations, i'd assume there's also a change to stopping places.
26/26A: Minor changes.
27: Extended to Ladywell West.
600: STILL OPERATES TO WHITBURN, minor changes i'd assume to adapt around the X22
X38: Renumbered from 38... Minor changes.
701: Unchanged (Shotts now get 3 buses per hour).

Quite a good set of changes, it's almost as if First and Lothian were listen to what i had been saying continuously months back in that another Edinburgh - Bathgate service was pointless and that they should focus on a Edinburgh - Blackburn - Whitburn service! Obviously the X22 offering a half hourly service to Shotts will be a huge bonus too.
I would suggest the 701 has maybe been included in the forthcoming timetables by mistake and will end 25th of January as per the service registration as it makes no sense for this to continue to operate.
 

Jordan Adam

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I would suggest the 701 has maybe been included in the forthcoming timetables by mistake and will end 25th of January as per the service registration as it makes no sense for this to continue to operate.

Yes you're right, i had forgotten than the 701 was only registered as a temporary service until the 25th. Post amended.
 

overthewater

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So the x22 is going to Edinburgh. I wonder where reg has gotten to.

It very unlikely stuarts 34a will continue to operate to livingston beyound March. If there had any sence they would just operate the same route as blue bus.

Big question are;

How will lcb responded?
How is first paying for this, is its losses being covered by the tours?
 

overthewater

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That explains its. I heard some thing when I first asked, but about this. Without all the facts what can you do. Tech its only 6 extra buses 5 for x22 livingston and one for ladywell west.

I see first has pulled out craigshill to broxburn and Edinburgh. Has lcb cornered the market here?

Is Criagshill lcb stronghold or just not that busy?
 

Jordan Adam

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That explains its. I heard some thing when I first asked, but about this. Without all the facts what can you do. Tech its only 6 extra buses 5 for x22 livingston and one for ladywell west.

I see first has pulled out craigshill to broxburn and Edinburgh. Has lcb cornered the market here?

Is Criagshill lcb stronghold or just not that busy?

Given that First proposed to axe the Craigshill - Edinburgh link prior to LCB moving in i can't imagine there's much market there anyway, at First's perspective it's better to protect the Deans market with an extra service rather than a pointless hourly service to Craigshill which is flooded by LCB. They still have the 27 though. Also the increase for the X22 looks closer to 6-7 buses once you include Shotts (yes the 701 launched the other week already covers this, however for simplicity sake it makes more sense to include the extension).

I still think First needs something to combat the X18 however as this is a corridor where they've somewhat lacked to do much.
 

Jordan Adam

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23 is coming of and numbered x23 x22 is covering 701 when changes happen

Are you sure? The timings of the X23/X24 suggest that there will be a 10 minute frequency to Deans combined with the 23, neither the X22 or X23 serve Kirknewton. The service hasn't been cancelled either.
 
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