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West Midlands Franchise ITT released by DfT

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miami

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I'm sure there are very real safety issues which explain where the guard was on my trip today (as it happens I travelled from Crewe to Brighton without showing my ticket at Crewe, on the train, at Euston, while walking across london, at Victoria, on the GeX, or at Brighton. One wonders why I spent the £90+).

Slightly concerning that 350s need so much support from a guard doing their essential safety tasks, compared with other rolling stock operated by ATW which allows guards to check tickets on a 3 car train in the 8 minutes between Nantwich and Crewe.
 
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the sniper

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Yes lots. A report from Halcrow showing the very high level of passengers travelling without valid tickets is bundled with the other documents. Bidders are required to come up with a strategy to reduce ticketless travel (page 30 of the briefing document).

Only in certain areas, one of which isn't the corridor on which paulweaver was travelling. Rugby-Nuneaton-Stafford-Stoke-Crewe only had 3.6% fare evasion in the survey. Euston-Milton Keynes-Northampton only had 1.7% fare evasion in the survey. Whatever strategy is offered will likely make little difference to the way the Trent Valley is worked.

One wonders why I spent the £90+

Well for a start you wouldn't have been able to have a moan about it not being checked if you hadn't brought it. Look on the bright side...
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure there are very real safety issues which explain where the guard was on my trip today

I don't think there are[1], as when LM first started out you were near certain to get your ticket checked, and guards mostly dispatched from the passenger saloon.

[1] Sort of. I am of the view that dispatch with a droplight is safer as you can watch the train out - but I don't think this is the reason for guards not dispatching from saloons, as sometimes they *do* do this. If it was safety-related, it would be banned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only in certain areas, one of which isn't the corridor on which paulweaver was travelling. Rugby-Nuneaton-Stafford-Stoke-Crewe only had 3.6% fare evasion in the survey. Euston-Milton Keynes-Northampton only had 1.7% fare evasion in the survey

Probably because the vast majority of the latter's passengers are travelling on season tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One wonders why I spent the £90+

Because you're an honest person and believe in paying for services you use, even if there is no enforcement of payment?

It does slightly rile when you know that others won't have been quite so scrupulous, though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Do LM have gate lines at any of their stations?

Yes, quite a number of them, but they are, at minor stations, normally unused. They are used at MKC and EUS for fairly long periods but are often left open in the evenings.

If remote monitoring is feasible, this could allow them to be used much more heavily, even when stations are totally unstaffed. That would give an improvement for probably a relatively low cost.
 

The Ham

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[1] Sort of. I am of the view that dispatch with a droplight is safer as you can watch the train out - but I don't think this is the reason for guards not dispatching from saloons, as sometimes they *do* do this. If it was safety-related, it would be banned.

SWT's guards mostly dispatch from the saloons. Given the long length of their trains (often 10/12 coaches in the peaks and serving stations that can mostly have that many coaches from the platforms) by the time a train has finished leaving a platform it can be going at a reasonable pace (even with the limitations of the third rail), as such it is going to take quite some time for the train to come to a stop, which could effectively negating most of the benefits of watching the train out.

There is a fine line to be had, as clearly it is safer to have platform screens and doors which would get rid of a lot more problems (including possibly umbrellas near OHLE), but that would require trains to stop at exactly the same place every time which could then start to increase the case for automated (or at least semi automated) trains. It would also mean the need for standardisation of trains calling at those platforms.
 

WestCoast

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Do LM have gate lines at any of their stations?

In the West Midlands, many of the major interchanges for LM services like Coventry, International and New Street are now gated by Virgin (although more because they have to as a franchise commitment rather than they want to).

LM gates University in Birmingham, but the passage is very narrow for the traffic it handles and the gates are usually open off-peak. LM seems very tolerant when it comes to passengers with wrong tickets too. Twice I've witnessed a guard show grace on a passenger with a Virgin only ticket and once on the wrong booked train. It's very passenger friendly and makes travelling with LM pleasant but I can't see the DfT being pleased.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm sure there are very real safety issues which explain where the guard was on my trip today (as it happens I travelled from Crewe to Brighton without showing my ticket at Crewe, on the train, at Euston, while walking across london, at Victoria, on the GeX, or at Brighton. One wonders why I spent the £90+).

In my experience that's fairly standard on a lot of commuter operators south of the "Crewe divide" :oops:. Are LM guards on a decent commission for ticket sales? Or is it not such a big thing as LM is (in theory) an Penalty Fares TOC? It's a complete contrast to Northern in my experience, where the guard on my 23.30 service ex Manchester Airport last night was diligently checking all the tickets of the returning revellers! :o
 
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centraltrains

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If remote monitoring is feasible, this could allow them to be used much more heavily, even when stations are totally unstaffed. That would give an improvement for probably a relatively low cost.

Snow Hills 'Back entrance' has remotely operated ones and they're hardly ever on off-peak!
 

the sniper

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Are LM guards on a decent commission for ticket sales?

Ex-Silverlink Guards have had better commission than ex-Central Guards for as long as I can remember. Earlier this year the commission ex-Central Guards get got reduced, which widened the gap further.

Consider how this plays out somewhere like the Trent Valley. A Crewe Guard working a train up through there could do the same number of tickets as a Northampton Guard, but the Crewe Guard will know that they'll likely be getting less than half the commission that their Northampton colleague does for their efforts...
 

All Line Rover

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Adding the Bletchley stop to those services will be detrimental to people travelling to Northampton, Rugby and beyond, because it will extend their journey time and increase overcrowding on those services. People from those stations are already paying much more than Bletchley commuters and get a lousy service with relatively slow journey times, they shouldn't have to lose out again.

This is nonsense.

First, stations north of Long Buckby benefit from, largely non-stop, Inter City West Coast services to/from London during peak hours, while London Midland services along the Trent Valley only call at Milton Keynes south of Rugby.

Second, although Milton Keynes has few non-stop morning peak services to London, its off-peak service is excellent and there are a range of evening peak non-stop ICWC and London Midland services from London.

Third, standard class season tickets are priced as follows:

London Euston to Bletchley: £4348 - 46 miles
London Euston to Milton Kn: £5028 - 49 miles
London Euston to Northamp: £5412 - 65 miles
London Euston to Rugby (LM): £5760 - 83 miles
London Euston to Rug (VTWC): £7844 - 83 miles

Passengers to stations other than Bletchley are not paying "much more". They benefit from a better timetable and faster services and, with the exception of Milton Keynes Central, cheaper fares per mile.
 

tomuk

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Ex Silverlink train crew still get decent commission, ex Central don't get anything worth shouting about anymore.

Is this why ticket checks on the Shrewsbury - Birmingham locals are on the sparse side?
 

Bletchleyite

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London Euston to Bletchley: £4348 - 46 miles
London Euston to Milton Kn: £5028 - 49 miles

While I like Bletchley being cheaper from a selfish perspective, I do wonder if it'd make more actual sense to make all of Wolverton, MKC, Bletchley, Bow Brickhill, Fenny Stratford and Woburn Sands the same price, then permit the double-back via MKC officially[1]. The only reason not to permit it is the price difference.

[1] You can of course do it on a season by purchasing one from MKC, but it doesn't work for day tickets.
 

Ianno87

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This is nonsense.

First, stations north of Long Buckby benefit from, largely non-stop, Inter City West Coast services to/from London during peak hours, while London Midland services along the Trent Valley only call at Milton Keynes south of Rugby.

Second, although Milton Keynes has few non-stop morning peak services to London, its off-peak service is excellent and there are a range of evening peak non-stop ICWC and London Midland services from London.

Third, standard class season tickets are priced as follows:

London Euston to Bletchley: £4348 - 46 miles
London Euston to Milton Kn: £5028 - 49 miles
London Euston to Northamp: £5412 - 65 miles
London Euston to Rugby (LM): £5760 - 83 miles
London Euston to Rug (VTWC): £7844 - 83 miles

Passengers to stations other than Bletchley are not paying "much more". They benefit from a better timetable and faster services and, with the exception of Milton Keynes Central, cheaper fares per mile.

Northampton is the real issue here. A busy station in a growing town, but a comparatively slow journey time (Coventry is a shorter journey time despite being 28 miles further from London - yes I know why this is the case) and less choice of trains than Milton Keynes for most of the day. Granted, the non-stop peak trains introduced a couple of years back have improved the peak service offering somewhat.
 

BHXDMT

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Is this why ticket checks on the Shrewsbury - Birmingham locals are on the sparse side?

That may be down to a lack of working Avantix machines at a specific depot more than anything.

Shrewsbury Guards are usually quite happy to go out and always have Avantix machines available.

The change in commission for ex Central conductors possibly didn't help though.
 
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Class172

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There may be an increase in the amount of rolling stock, but I don't necessarily see that coming from another order for new trains, given there's going to be a surfeit of EMUs released in the next few years (partly due to the Greater Anglia fleet replacement) - we could perhaps see the 360s join the 350s, and there is the long running speculation of the 323s moving south from Manchester.
 

MCR247

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I was thinking the other day, if say the new operators had enough 323s (or equivalent new stock) to run every cross-city as a 6 car, would this reduce capacity by a significant amount? Or at least the resilience? And maybe cause an increase in delays to XC services
 

Class172

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I'm rather confused also. All the stations on the route can support 6 car trains as far as I am aware (ie no SDO issues etc.), so I don't see why running all services this length would have any adverse effects. :?
 

JamesTT

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'Where
DCO is proposed, the Department would require the
Franchisee to
undertake appropriate consultation (with passengers and the
workforce) including about supporting the continual development and
expansion of the professional skills of on-
train staff, in particular in
relation to on-
board customer service to which passengers attach most
value'
 

Ianno87

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I'm rather confused also. All the stations on the route can support 6 car trains as far as I am aware (ie no SDO issues etc.), so I don't see why running all services this length would have any adverse effects. :?

There would be a tiny, tiny effect of trains taking slightly longer to clear junctions and signal sections (New St throat being most critical), but that would be about it. Negligible in grand scheme of things (and probably more than offset anyway by passengers having more doors to board/alight through).
 

TH172341

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I too can't see or haven't heard any issue with running all Cross City services as 6 car unit diagrams. Simply require more stabling facilities and a drawing up of new diagrams. Additional 323s from Northern would enable all diagrams including the future Bromsgrove extras to be six car with decent slack.

Interesting regarding the commission rates; perhaps if they upped them a bit we might see a greater level of ticket checks. The Snow Hill line I'm finding has got worse and worse in that respect; more times than not you'd be able to run the risk of not needing to get a ticket. I seriously don't see why the ticket checks aren't being performed when frequent travels with Northern, Cross Country and Greater Anglia have virtually always had a ticket check.

In respect to DCO it's a potential on West Midlands, however in practicality terms not easy. The Desiros I understand would be very difficult to retrofit with the required equipment, and the 172s not easy either due to the restricted cab space. So unless you resorted to the mirror style that Chiltern utilise it's not a cheap or easy process without having a widespread fleet replacement. My personal view is to retain the current conductor role, but greater encouragement to carry out the revenue checks, or go TfL style and staff the barrier stations from open to close, with more barriers fitted at outer extremity stations.
 

MCR247

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Not sure why it would, we don't treat 6 cars any different to 3.

I'm rather confused also. All the stations on the route can support 6 car trains as far as I am aware (ie no SDO issues etc.), so I don't see why running all services this length would have any adverse effects. :?

Fair enough, I was just wondering because I use them quite a bit and whilst ~2 mins delay is normal between Kings Norton and New St, I've noticed the 6 cars tend to arrive a bit later and lose a few minutes.
 

40129

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The main problem with 6-car Cross City line trains imo is the northbound platform (3?) at Barnt Green. This is quitte narrow and on the outside of a tight curve. How 6-car operation here can be considered safe I do not know, as it appears impossible for the conductor to be able to see all the doors before closing them
 

TheDavibob

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The main problem with 6-car Cross City line trains imo is the northbound platform (3?) at Barnt Green. This is quitte narrow and on the outside of a tight curve. How 6-car operation here can be considered safe I do not know, as it appears impossible for the conductor to be able to see all the doors before closing them

Doubt it's any tighter a curve than Sutton Coldfield's -- the conductor stands in the middle of the train on a six-car one, so can see fully in both directions.
 

40129

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Doubt it's any tighter a curve than Sutton Coldfield's -- the conductor stands in the middle of the train on a six-car one, so can see fully in both directions.

You may well be correct re the tightness of the curve in comparison with Sutton Coldfield but the platform at Sutton is quite a lot wider. The problem at Barnt Green is a combination of a tight curve and a narrow platform. AIUI a conductor at Barnt Green cannot see the front and rear cars of a double set standing in the middle
 

Ianno87

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Fair enough, I was just wondering because I use them quite a bit and whilst ~2 mins delay is normal between Kings Norton and New St, I've noticed the 6 cars tend to arrive a bit later and lose a few minutes.

It may in fact be, as the other posters suggest, 6-cars taking longer to despatch at some stations due to platform curvature. And in the peaks, more passengers being attracted to them due to being more likely to get a seat and/or they are 6-car at those times simply because that is when the biggest volume of people are trying to get on them (thus delaying them more)
 
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