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West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform
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Steve Harris
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In your opinion !! Back in the real world...
I used to work with a person who had "learning difficulties" who was perfectly able to travel on their own. However, due to their condition the journey had to be structured (ie the first journey would be with a "minder" so they got accustomed to the station layout and route). On the second and subsequent journey's they would be fine on there own.
They would be f*ed though they got thrown off at an unfamiliar station on route they hadn't been to before.
Why should they be discriminated against living an independent life just in case the railway company chuck them off at a unfamiliar station ?
Edit: Although they had "learning difficulties" they were actually quite clever and probably know more than you regarding Spreadsheets (which they excelled at)! Pardon the pun.
alistairlees
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There are some extraordinarily anti-customer comments in this thread. I expect that almost all of the affected people will each be telling many other people how awful train travel is. And those people will either be passing on the story to many more people, or not deciding not to travel by train when they might have done. Or both. And those people with first hand experience of this will, of course, be thinking twice about train travel.
The affected customers deserve at the very least, a good explanation of what happened, why it happened, and what’s being done to prevent it from happening again. I don’t mean the unfortunate suicide here; I mean the many opportunities that there were to help the customers afterwards.
Communicating with the affected customers, and offering some sort of goodwill gesture, as well as a full refund, would seem to be the right start. There is at least a chance of starting to turn the narrative in the favour of train travel then.
The affected customers deserve at the very least, a good explanation of what happened, why it happened, and what’s being done to prevent it from happening again. I don’t mean the unfortunate suicide here; I mean the many opportunities that there were to help the customers afterwards.
Communicating with the affected customers, and offering some sort of goodwill gesture, as well as a full refund, would seem to be the right start. There is at least a chance of starting to turn the narrative in the favour of train travel then.
I have plenty of real world experience of looking after those with learning difficulties. Enough to know that anyone who isn’t able to replan their journey shouldn’t be travelling unsupervised by public transport, end of.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Presumably everyone would be entitled to 100% Delay Repay anyway, given the extent of their delay? Presumably the 'single railwayman on the platform' (mentioned up thread) made this clear? At least if most people claimed the TOC will have their contact details to be more pro-active.
They weren't forgotten about at Spalding. There were a huge number of problems all occurring at once combined with the station not being staffed on a Sunday and there being nobody locally who had the keys to open the toilets and waiting room (ironically, unfortunately, a bit of local knowledge would at least have allowed them to open the staff mess room/toilet facilities for which there is a key accessible to railway staff on site which given it was effectively an emergency would have been quite reasonable) which lead to BTP having to break in in the end. It was ridiculous but there were people working constantly to try and sort it out and getting nowhere fast. If it hadn't been a Sunday there are several large supermarkets right outside with toilets that could have been used but alas - closed.
That is very different to this case where it appears people were set down by a train being turned around short and in normal circumstances they would be a priority to have picked back up again including if need be making additional calls. It appears for whatever reason someone dropped the ball and failed to take them into account in decision making/forgot about them.
Mcr Warrior
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Indeed. Somewhat surprising that some posters on here seem to be suggesting that such a sub-optimal level of customer experience is quite acceptable.
What arrangements would you make from Hemel Hempstead at night?
I don't think anyone's saying it's acceptable, but in the real world things go wrong - that's what seems to have happened here. But what do you want? Public humiliation and scrutiny for those who made those decisions and possibly made a mistake by a panel of 'Railforums Armchair Experts' able to pass sanctions varying from a 10 year stint of bog cleaning at a major station to full scale dismissal without appeal?
I maintain, a sensible adult should be capable of taking a sensible decision - if after an hour a train hasn't turned up, particularly when there has been a significant disruption, then take responsibility for your journey and get home, sort out the complaint and recompense later.
Baffling why the railway has such an appalling reputation isn't it. . . .
The kind of legal action that would have forced them to pay me the compensation i was due for a 2hr delay caused by their door fault that they thought they'd try and get away with hiding. Of course, most people would have been unsuccessful as they wouldn't have the ability to access the records so wouldn't have been able to prove the fault was logged. They try it on, it's how they are trained. It's difficult for £The family" to admit it.
This attitude is disappointing at best and because of that, your claimed experience is genuinely concerning. People who aren't able to re plan their journey must make up a significant number of rail passengers, many of which will be far more intelligent than you or I. Even those who can look through a time table and work out an alternative route, or work out that another station is only a 10 minute brisk walk away, or have the people skills to converse with staff are often significantly hindered in their attempt by rail staff turning the situation into a bigger farce than it was in the first place. The only people in this situation who "can't replan a journey" seems to be the Train Operating Company. Perhaps they shouldn't do their job unsupervised.
It's staggering that after a incident that in many cases would see more than one person clearing their lockers out the very same day, will already be firmly under the carpet on the railway. To then suggest that after a selection of professional people made such a monumental cockup that it is the passengers that didn't ought to be travelling on their own if they can't deal with the failing of the railway, and it is the passengers who should have just sorted themselves out, and it is the passengers that should KNOW the timetable from nearby stations, to me, in 2021 sums up the UK Railway with gross accuracy. It is soul destroying seeing countless members on here who work for the railway, and countless more workers who do not frequent here fighting hard every single shift to make the railway work for the passengers, to actually focus on the ones that the railway SHOULD be run for, to do their best to provide the highest levels of service they can. Fighting against those who couldn't give a damn whether the passengers get home, couldn't care less if they have a valid ticket if you've not reached your PF / UFN quota, couldn't care less if they have below average social skills, have learning difficulties, are autistic, are physically disabled, and need a little extra help in times of disruption and from what it seems and from what i've discussed with several staff from a range of operators it is an uphill battle, and it isn't going well.
Sadly it seems to be a lot of people's opinion.
There are some extraordinarily anti customer members on the forum, many (not all) of which are of course railway employees. It's little wonder that these things happen, and the customers are treated the way they are when you see the attitude some have. Thankfully, despite what some of the opposite 'extremists' will tell you, its incredibly rare and there is an obvious bias because we always get to hear of it, and we have a keen interest in it, from one side of the fence or another.
Snow1964
Established Member
Whilst emptying a train to turn it is operational, and understandable in circumstances, I am struggling to understand why the passengers disembarked were told there was following trains to take them forward if there wasn’t.
It appears to me someone in control sanctioned lying to fare paying passengers, knowing they had no intention of stopping next train to pick them up, and worst still, some posters on this thread seem to be defending that despicable act.
However you look at it, Control decided to detrain those passengers, so Control had the duty of care to pick them up with next train
It appears to me someone in control sanctioned lying to fare paying passengers, knowing they had no intention of stopping next train to pick them up, and worst still, some posters on this thread seem to be defending that despicable act.
However you look at it, Control decided to detrain those passengers, so Control had the duty of care to pick them up with next train
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Brilliant - so on the basis of a post on Railforums and some info on RTT you can determine "somebody should be fired".
My god, I hope you're *never* called up to do jury service if that's your threshold for guilt, because the poor sod on trial might just as well be taken outside and shot on day 1 without wasting the time of a trial.
I assume you're fully experienced in rail operations and decision making when recovering from an incident?
It's exactly what some are implying.
A sensible adult doesn't make up 100% of the passenger numbers, some people may not be able to drive a car for the same reason they need extra assistance in the event of disruption on the railway.
It's all well and good saying people should take responsibility for their own journey, but there are 2 problems that stick out in this instance. Firstly, cost. A lot of passengers may have been on tickets totalling £10-£15, its entirely possible that many may have to spend several times that to get themselves home and they would not be able to afford that. They've booked tickets on the railway on the basis that the contract says it will get them home. Secondly, communication, again. The alternatives are a bit of a faff. Booking a taxi, waiting for a taxi, paying for a taxi, trying to get a receipt from the taxi driver (blood out of a stone springs to mind), so when you are promised a train, you will favour the train, when it goes by and you're promised teh next one, you'll still favour the train. People are NOT going to say "sod this for a game of soldiers, i'm getting at taxi" when the operator is saying the next train will stop here, they gave that false information, whatever the cause.
Absolutely not, i am showing the SIGNFICANT difference in response. I'm not suggesting anyone should be dismissed at all, i assume (unlikely some) that this is entirely down to incompetence. My point is that in some industries they would not be allowed a second chance but in this industry, it is unlikely it will even get discussed, there are several polite steps between doing sod all and dismissing someone, one of which i feel should be implemented here, preferably closer to doing sod all unless there are factors we don't know about. But of course, that isn't the main focus here, the main focus is the event itself.
I don't get the logic. Passengers tend to expect the railway to look after them to some degree. Boarding your train and then being kicked off it half way to your destination for operational reasons might be something that happens, but I would be going out of my way to ensure those passengers were recovered on to a train as soon as possible and these things are normally considered.
It would be something to be treated as a priority at my own TOC.
221129
Established Member
Or more likely the guard assumed there would be additional stops, the guard or passengers misunderstood the plan or the guard took it upon themselves to misinform the passengers.
Steve Harris
Member
Unfortunately (IMO) you don't show it.. end of.
And by and large the TOC did look after passengers. RRBs were put in place between MK and Watford, many others were helped or diverted to get them home.
What happened here falls firmly into the cock up category, but every company makes mistakes.
I look forward to you getting your TOC up and running and watching you deal with such problems.
Not remotely true. Especially in the eyes of the law.
Any on train staff should make the effort to be aware of vulnerable passengers in situations like this, and any additional needs they may have.
I always enjoy a challenge
My point was that people saying the passengers should have just got on with it after a bit don't appear to have gotten the passenger mentality in mind, which is that the railway is there to look after them, that's why they've paid for their ticket. That they've been forgotten having been kicked off a train probably genuinely wouldn't occur to them. Given many passengers struggle to cope with equating a departure screen to a train in the platform or similar it seems a bit unreasonable to expect them to decide "right, we've been forgotten about, let's sort it out ourselves" - they just don't do that.
I've done it myself once having been stranded at Amsterdam Centraal one day for hours in a storm - eventually I gave up, did some research online and found a bus that happily was running and took me and my friends to our destination. But it took a long time for us to get to that point and that is seasoned travellers and railway workers.
I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be hung over it though, though I would expect at least slot in the incident debrief to be "OK guys, we left some passengers at Hemel for hours - we need to make sure that doesn't happen again" - that's why TOCs post survey links for passengers to complete with post disruption feedback on how it was handled.
From a railway operating point of view it is basically a regrettable oversight. From a customer service perspective it's pretty unfortunate and that is what we are all being pushed to get right at the minute.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Three recent SWR examples of decisions which were both user-hostile and operationally counter-productive.
1. Trains to Kingston on adjacent platforms at Waterloo. "Control" decides to run one of them, which was scheduled to have left 20 minutes ago, fast to Strawberry Hill, leaving the other to serve intermediate stations. Not ideal, given this is the evening peak and the seco0nd train will consequently be heaving. But at least they announce that before the other train leaves (their usual trick - let one train go and then announce the other is skip stopping)
However, while the passengers are crossing over, the platform staff discover that they include a wheelchair user. Further delay whilst a ramp is found to disembark him from the first train and a different ramp is found (because, naturally 455s and 707s don't fit the same design of ramp) to embark him on the other. By the time this is all done both trains are delayed even further. Did it not occur to anyone to make the first train skip-stop all stations except the one the wheelchair user needed?
2. Problem somewhere on the Kingston Loop, so a train was diverted at New Malden, running instead to Surbiton. Fine, there are plenty of buses from Surbiton to Kingston, Teddington etc. Except we are all turfed off at New Malden, where alternative onward travel opportunities are hard to come by. Not only was this customer-hostile, but operationally crass as well because the train was held at New Malden for nearly ten minutes while the guard checked each of the ten carriages for stowaways, causing a long delay to following trains on the Down Slow. "Tipping Out" at Surbiton could have been done in the bay, without delaying any following train.
3. My wife, turfed off at Wimbledon for some operational reason, in vain sought assistance from station staff as to how to get home. When I later took this up at a "Meet the Manager" session the very senior person I was talking to seemed to think that it was unreasonable to expect staff to know about, let alone advise on, services provided by "a competitor". But the local buses are complementary to, not competing with, the rail network, and in any case the rail operator in this case was expecting the buses to bail them out by accepting their passengers.
(And connecting rail services are not run by the TOC's "competitors"- if I buy a ticket from company A and part of the journey has to be made by company B, company B is a subcontractor - and the main contractor is responsible to the customer for any failings of its subcontractors)
I'm so glad I don't have to commute by SWT/SWR any more. I had theirvictim support "customer service" line on speed dial.
1. Trains to Kingston on adjacent platforms at Waterloo. "Control" decides to run one of them, which was scheduled to have left 20 minutes ago, fast to Strawberry Hill, leaving the other to serve intermediate stations. Not ideal, given this is the evening peak and the seco0nd train will consequently be heaving. But at least they announce that before the other train leaves (their usual trick - let one train go and then announce the other is skip stopping)
However, while the passengers are crossing over, the platform staff discover that they include a wheelchair user. Further delay whilst a ramp is found to disembark him from the first train and a different ramp is found (because, naturally 455s and 707s don't fit the same design of ramp) to embark him on the other. By the time this is all done both trains are delayed even further. Did it not occur to anyone to make the first train skip-stop all stations except the one the wheelchair user needed?
2. Problem somewhere on the Kingston Loop, so a train was diverted at New Malden, running instead to Surbiton. Fine, there are plenty of buses from Surbiton to Kingston, Teddington etc. Except we are all turfed off at New Malden, where alternative onward travel opportunities are hard to come by. Not only was this customer-hostile, but operationally crass as well because the train was held at New Malden for nearly ten minutes while the guard checked each of the ten carriages for stowaways, causing a long delay to following trains on the Down Slow. "Tipping Out" at Surbiton could have been done in the bay, without delaying any following train.
3. My wife, turfed off at Wimbledon for some operational reason, in vain sought assistance from station staff as to how to get home. When I later took this up at a "Meet the Manager" session the very senior person I was talking to seemed to think that it was unreasonable to expect staff to know about, let alone advise on, services provided by "a competitor". But the local buses are complementary to, not competing with, the rail network, and in any case the rail operator in this case was expecting the buses to bail them out by accepting their passengers.
(And connecting rail services are not run by the TOC's "competitors"- if I buy a ticket from company A and part of the journey has to be made by company B, company B is a subcontractor - and the main contractor is responsible to the customer for any failings of its subcontractors)
I'm so glad I don't have to commute by SWT/SWR any more. I had their
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And almost all of them DO make the effort (and more) and whilst it isn't a service i require, i'm grateful for the effort they do put in, in as i mentioned before what appears to be an uphill battle for them.
allotments
Member
Passengers' trust in the railway is inevitably damaged when a train full of passengers’ welfare is jeopardised by being set down on a cold night for operational reasons in the middle of nowhere mid-journey, promised following trains fail to materialise, communication is inaccurate and operational needs are seen to have been continuously put first.
Each of 10 passing southbound trains could have stopped to take us to Euston.
Along the lines of the attached document which discusses passenger behaviour on stranded trains, should passengers now refuse to disembark when requested mid-journey for fear of being abandoned?
The loss of trust can only be addressed by a full explanation of what went wrong and what has been done to prevent recurrence.
Each of 10 passing southbound trains could have stopped to take us to Euston.
Along the lines of the attached document which discusses passenger behaviour on stranded trains, should passengers now refuse to disembark when requested mid-journey for fear of being abandoned?
The loss of trust can only be addressed by a full explanation of what went wrong and what has been done to prevent recurrence.
Attachments
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Been a lot of hot air in this thread. Clearly, this was a pretty poor experience - I’m wondering if you were forgotten about while the maelstrom of picking up the service swirled in Control. It seems the most likely explanation.
You should complain to the train operator, LNWR, who should at the very least offer you 100% Delay Repay and hopefully address your other concerns.
I’d ignore the rather anti-passenger sentiments in this thread. I’ve been there and got the t shirt both as a customer and working TOC-side when it comes to incidents like this and it’s obviously not good enough, and a complaint is warranted.
jamesst
Member
Easiest answer, whack a complaint in and see what comes back. If you don't like the response escalate it.
Far easier to be honest than asking here where everyone thinks there an expert and most forum topics collapse into mud slinging!!
Far easier to be honest than asking here where everyone thinks there an expert and most forum topics collapse into mud slinging!!
I agree that some operating staff do not look for other solutions to a problem. I recall some time go there was a problem between Orpington and Sevenoaks in the height of the evening rush hour. The solution was to turf passengers out at Orpington and try to source Replacement Bus Services. As anyone would know, conjuring up RRBs cannot be done in 5 minutes, so there was a massive crowd at Orpington, which spilled onto the road outside, blocking it, and further delaying any RRBs that might arrive.
The less obvious, but more practical solution, would be to divert trains at Chislehurst to Sevenoaks via Bat and Ball, and for passengers looking for Chelsfield, Knockholt and Dunton Green to change at Sevenoaks for a London-bound train to call at these stations.
This would have avoided all the crowding issues, would not require RRBs, and would have got passengers home much quicker. Willl this ever happen in future? Nah, not a chance.
43096
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Realtimetrains shows the 2349 as passing rather than stopping - which tallies with your experience: Realtime Trains - Departures from Hemel Hempstead
Yes it did. The RTT listing linked to above shows the 2349 skip stopped.
Fundamentally disagree - just remind yourself, who are they recovering the service for? In case it's not clear: it's the customers. Ultimately they pay the staff's wages. Typical railway attitude that sees the customer as an inconvenience.
And if we're talking about recovering the service, the above RTT extract shows just how bad a job they made of it. "Gave up and went home" would be a more apt description of the service recovery. Not the first time I've been aware of such incompetence with LNR, either.
Mcr Warrior
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Here's what London Northwestern Railway's Passenger's Charter document has to say on the matter...
"In the unfortunate circumstances when delays do occur though, we also proactively manage the incident to reduce the possibility and likelihood of significant disruption to your journeys as a result."
That'll be right then?!
Be interesting to see what lessons, if any, LNR do take on board from all this.
"In the unfortunate circumstances when delays do occur though, we also proactively manage the incident to reduce the possibility and likelihood of significant disruption to your journeys as a result."
That'll be right then?!
Be interesting to see what lessons, if any, LNR do take on board from all this.
allotments
Member
@43096 thank you +++ for the realtimetrains data
I immediately got an ominous feeling that we were being abandoned when stepping out onto the platform seeing the departure board only showed delayed or cancelled trains
Not sure you can expect stranded passengers to make their own arrangements, whatever that means. Not everyone will know where to go or what to do, and not everyone can affird fifty quid for a taxi, especially if they aren’t sure that they’d get it back.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Did you talk to the railwayman on the platform? Did he do anything to help?
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