West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform

[Wolfie]

And yet passengers get taken to court for a lot less. Unless you are claiming passengers should also not be taken to court over £50 or less?
If "insert TOC name here" is going to take me to court for 50p (as is on record at least one ToC trying), why shouldn't I take them to court for £50?

Absolutely. Some folk on here think that anything that TOCs do when passengers make an error is fine but passengers should suck it up when TOCs do. There is an old phrase about geese of both genders and sauce.....

 

[Robertj21a]

Apologists who think that "operational decisions" are more important than providing passengers with an acceptable service are what helps to give railway companies a bad name. The railways do not exist to suit what is easiest for managements - they exist to provide a service to the public.

Yes, accidents and fatalities do occur occasionally, and people accept the inevitable delays. What they do not accept is gross incompetence disguised as flimsy excuses such as management-speak.

Terminating a train at somewhere like Hemel Hempstead can only be described as doing what is easiest for the railway company. Terminating at Watford would mean more problems for the railway company, but would have been a much better solution for the people who matter -- the passengers dumped in (to them) an unfamiliar location, (mis)led to expect another train within 30 minutes or so, and with no information about possible alternative services.

Good, common sense, comments. Such a shame that a few rail staff simply can't understand.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Reminds me of an incident a few years ago between Xmas and new year , where on a crowded train from Barrow everyone got detrained at Carnforth at a moment's notice (someone knew it was going to happen ive no doubt), promised a bus to take us all to Lancaster There were about 80 people. Needless to say Arriva Northern sent a minibus and we actuly had to ring Northern (no staff at Carnforth and it was freezing) who had to hastily get a bigger coach arranged To be fair i got all my money back as i was going to London and was about 4 hours late!!!

 

[Wolfie]

Sensible, affluent, pukka passengers who can afford the fares, please. That £500 per day overtime I command won’t pay itself, will it?!

How about, since you were so keen for passengers to use other means of transport (I believe that National Express was mentioned), that they vote for a party that promises to slash subsidies to the railway? If you pee off enough passengers that is exactly what could happen.....

 

[allotments]

“I am sorry that you were held up in disruption on 30 April. I can certainly appreciate your frustration.

We are aware of the issues that took place with the train you were travelling on and I can give you my assurance that the events of that evening are being internally investigated. This train was originally due to stop at Milton Keynes however, due to a miscommunication, it carried on through to Hemel Hempstead as you have described. Following on from this, there were further issues with trains serving Hemel Hempstead going south which was mainly due to drivers reaching their legal limit on driving hours which inevitably caused several cancellations into the evening to and from London Euston. We were attempting to arrange rail replacement services for customers at Hemel Hempstead however, due to engineering works over the weekend, they were all fully booked and unfortunately, could not be sourced.

Customers are very understanding and realise things will occasionally go wrong on a complex rail network. What they are far less tolerant of is any failure to keep people informed about what is happening and when they can reasonably expect to reach their destination. I have noted the lack of information or assistance once you finally arrived into London Euston, for which I am very sorry. This is a cornerstone of our training and a message we regularly refresh. We are doing all we can to improve this part of our service.

We are working with Network Rail and other Train Operating Companies and will continually strive to provide a service which is punctual and reliable. You can therefore be assured that we will monitor the trains you use and all of our other services against both criteria every day. It is with this in mind that your comments and observations have now been logged in full and will be used to help us improve the service that we offer.”

 

[lovedthelevers]

Thank you for sharing the outcome. How do you feel about the response?

 

[robbeech]

That seems reasonable, even if it is a generic response (which i don't think it is).

 

[Western Sunset]

I think it's rather a good letter. Mentions specifics as to what went wrong and ends by looking forward. Has the feel of being genuine in what the writer is saying, as does the apology.

 

[allotments]

Thank you for sharing the outcome. How do you feel about the response?

still thinking about it

seems the initial problem was not being detrained at MK

error forgiven

Fully support drivers not working excessive hours - safety first even if inconvenient

Communication on platform was limited to a departure board showing delay and cancellation with one announcement about an expected train at 23:49 I think - but I didn't hear it clearly. In any case that train skip stopped as did another afterwards

Comms very poor and impersonal over 2 hours 45 minutes. Passengers felt abandoned.

On arrival at Euston no help but passenger needs were predictable. There should have been a staff presence to help with onward travel. Some passengers might not have the means to get home without it.

The LNWR response recognises this.

I still don't understand why one of many southbound Avanti trains could not have made an unscheduled stop to pick us up.

The bit I'm unsure about is whether passengers can trust that something like this (abandonment and lack of help at Euston) won't happen again when the service is recovering late at night.

That seems reasonable, even if it is a generic response (which i don't think it is).

Maybe someone with the authority can move this comment to the original (now closed) thread, likely without the need to reopen it.

I'd prefer to see other members feedback here actually.

Without any of the heated off topic personal comments that may have caused the original thread to have been locked.

 

[lovedthelevers]

It's an honest response, and it does recognise their mistakes, the main one being the mis-communication that meant you didn't stop at Milton Keynes. It doesn't excuse it, but Control is extremely busy with these kinds of difficult incidents, and communications can be missed or passed on too late.

Edit: I am really sorry, but I reviewed and strongly disliked my phrasing in my initial statement about Hemel and have to re-type it as it wasn't 100% factual in the way I wrote it. I don't want to mislead allotments, who btw has a great and positive attitude to their awful experience.

Corrected : For various reasons, Avanti services do not stop at Hemel. This will be down to things such as train crew knowledge, dispatch procedures, stop car boards etc.

 

[Llanigraham]

I still don't understand why one of many southbound Avanti trains could not have made an unscheduled stop to pick us up.

Perhaps someone could explain how drivers get "Special Stop Orders" like should have happened here.

 

[tspaul26]

Based on my experience, this looks like a mixture of standard ‘lines to take’ mixed with a hefty portion of bespoke material. This fact alone indicates to me that the matter is indeed being looked into - and at a relatively high level to boot: this sort of letter doesn’t get issued unless someone higher up has seen it first.

It does seem to me that the best way of sorting the mess would have been to have someone meet the train at Euston - the other thread suggested that WMT have a 24hr presence there - in order to provide advice and assistance and to make the necessary arrangements.

This has the potential to lead to a highly valuable ‘lessons learnt’ exercise if managed properly. We’ve just been doing something similar at work for a railway client.

 

[allotments]

It's an honest response, and it does recognise their mistakes, the main one being the mis-communication that meant you didn't stop at Milton Keynes. It doesn't excuse it, but Control is extremely busy with these kinds of difficult incidents, and communications can be missed or passed on too late.

Unfortunately, for various reasons (platform length, driver training, dispatch facilities) Avanti services are not allowed to stop at Hemel.

OK now I understand why Avanti couldn't pick us up. Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

It's an honest response, and it does recognise their mistakes, the main one being the mis-communication that meant you didn't stop at Milton Keynes. It doesn't excuse it, but Control is extremely busy with these kinds of difficult incidents, and communications can be missed or passed on too late.

Unfortunately, for various reasons (platform length, driver training, dispatch facilities) Avanti services are not allowed to stop at Hemel.

I did rather suspect that HML wouldn’t have been the preferred detraining point.

MKC is much better equipped and, importantly is staffed all the time.

 

[Robertj21a]

A well written letter, very surprising these days.

 

[MotCO]

OK now I understand why Avanti couldn't pick us up. Thanks

But again, it would have been better if this was explained at the time or in the apology, rather than relying on the expertise on this forum.

 

[ABB125]

Out of interest, why aren't Avanti allowed to stop at Hemel Hempstead?

 

[MotCO]

Out of interest, why aren't Avanti allowed to stop at Hemel Hempstead?

Short platform by the sound of it, or are you saying why couldn't the passengers be picked up through the guard's door?

 

[dave4jackie]

Out of interest, why aren't Avanti allowed to stop at Hemel Hempstead?

See post 310

 

[etr221]

I noticed that nothing was said about the - AIUI - total (or almost) so lack of information provided to the passengers at HML between them being unloaded at c2200, and a train actually picking them up.

My inclination would be to reply, thanking them, and hoping that you will hear more once they have conluded their inveastigation.

Also asking (1) why there was no communication to HML? Was it (a) no means of doing so? (b) they thought there was nothing to say? or (c) they disn't think there was anyone to communicate to (i.e they were fogotten/overlooked)?
and (2) why none of the Avanti [I know there's been an explanation above, I would still be asking the question] or LNWR trains that sped through could have stopped to pick them up?
and, perhaps, (3) why the oiginal train was terminsted at HML rather than elsewhere?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The four platforms at Hemel Hempstead are each approximately 12 carriage lengths long, including platform two adjacent to the 'Up Fast' line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The four platforms at Hemel Hempstead are each approximately 12 carriage lengths long, including platform two adjacent to the 'Up Fast' line.

The whole south WCML (other than Bushey) has platforms at least 240m long (12x20m), but an 11-car Pendolino is a bit longer, somewhere around 260m.

 

[lovedthelevers]

I'm embarrassed and have corrected my post #310 about Hemel. The way I detailed it wasn't factual, although it is still the case that Avanti do not stop there. I can envision them stopping in an emergency situation to evacuate passengers, but not to pick any up.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Was there any offer of compensation beyond the standard Delay Repay?

 

[allotments]

Was there any offer of compensation beyond the standard Delay Repay？

Raising awareness by having the incident properly investigated and documented, including here in public - so that the performance history can be reviewed and there is accountability - compensates me just fine.

I want the railway to be successful.

 

[Horizon22]

That's a decent response. As I suspected, miscommunication seems to be the root cause of things here (the terminating at Hemel instead of MKC and subsequently not organising at least one train to stop). They also touched on the areas that they know passengers care deeply about it.

I think the OP has been very understanding about this and I think LNWR realise that, in this incident, there was a catalogue of failings.

Also asking (1) why there was no communication to HML? Was it (a) no means of doing so? (b) they thought there was nothing to say? or (c) they disn't think there was anyone to communicate to (i.e they were fogotten/overlooked)?
and (2) why none of the Avanti [I know there's been an explanation above, I would still be asking the question] or LNWR trains that sped through could have stopped to pick them up?
and, perhaps, (3) why the oiginal train was terminsted at HML rather than elsewhere?

1a) Seemingly unstaffed at the time of the incident I believe, which probably effects b). c) It appears not - although I have my suspicions about that - because they mention trying to secure replacement transport but being unable to.
2) Probably comes down to miscommunication about the trains booked to stop and the issue was somewhat overlooked by apparently larger priorities
3) The post says it was meant to terminate at MKC but a communication error prevented this. Where the chain broke (a termination order would normally go control -> station supervisor / controller -> platform staff -> crew and parallel informing the signaller) is of course unknown.

 

[43066]

Raising awareness by having the incident properly investigated and documented, including here in public - so that the performance history can be reviewed and there is accountability - compensates me just fine.

I want the railway to be successful.

It’s good to see you’ve received a detailed and relevant response letter. A satisfactory outcome all round I’d say.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The fact they actually explained the various things that went wrong is actually really nice to see. So often when I've had issues you get a hand wavy "sorry, we'll try better next time" response.
I'm not sure how much the average passenger cares, but certainly as someone who likes to understand the goings on, that would make me a bit happier.

 

[plebb11]

I was there that night, and there was a very helpfull (however with little information) member of staff on his own down stairs in the ticket office.

I felt abit sorry for the guy with everyone bombarding him with questions, and how little information he had available, he made several calls in front of us and clearly gave us the advise he was given.

He advised us to travel via private means either - taxi, Uber or local bus 320 if I recall to Watford junction statoon to connect to a last running overground service. He also said to reclaim this via delay repay.

I think there could have been better stations to stop the train ie Watford or Milton Keynes but somebody made this decision somewhere else and obviously has no understanding of connections for passengers.

 

[lovedthelevers]

I was there that night, and there was a very helpfull (however with little information) member of staff on his own down stairs in the ticket office.

I felt abit sorry for the guy with everyone bombarding him with questions, and how little information he had available, he made several calls in front of us and clearly gave us the advise he was given.

He advised us to travel via private means either - taxi, Uber or local bus 320 if I recall to Watford junction statoon to connect to a last running overground service. He also said to reclaim this via delay repay.

I think there could have been better stations to stop the train ie Watford or Milton Keynes but somebody made this decision somewhere else and obviously has no understanding of connections for passengers.

Milton Keynes would have been preferred, but as per the letter LNWR sent this didn't happen due to a mis-communication. I don't think anyone else has mentioned it, but there were OLE problems on the Down Slow at Watford, so this was not available to turn the train either. That left Hemel as the only option before Euston.