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West Riding train services in 1964 - a map

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YorksLad12

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Keep up the good work!
It would be interesting, but perhaps not essential, to use dashed (or hollow) lines for those segments where the service wasn't very frequent, even by the standards of the day...
I'm more keen on 'tramlines' than dotted lines, but they're a pain to do (effectively, one thin white line on top of a coloured one, so harder to shuffle around - it's the way the arrows are done).

Version 0.16 attached, taking into account more comments. Unfortunately I've had to put a kink into the Dearne Valley Line near Brightside so I could make some space further up, and the two Castleford stations are not anatomically geographically correct. If they were there'd be a strange pair of crossovers, the same colour, in a very small space. I still need to check out the comment about ex-GC trains taking a different route at Woodhouse, and there really ought to be an arrow at Victoria for trains to Nottingham.

Beck used to do this by hand. So much respect for him.
 

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unslet

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The direct line from Melmerby to Thirsk was already closed. I would suggest the onward destination shown as Thirsk would not be shown.It would have been a faffing journey involving a reversal at Northallerton.
 

Bevan Price

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Not worth including on the map, as it did not serve local stations, but until circa 1964/65, some expresses between Sheffield & Leeds avoided Rotherham by running via Wombwell (West), and then the connection from Monk Spring Jn to Cudworth.

And a technicality -- I suppose you show the ECML north of Doncaster (the black line) that way for reasons of clarity, but it actually runs to the west of Thorne & Goole, so I found it slightly confusing when I first looked at the latest version.
 

alistairlees

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It’s a great map. Only one small thing: I think goldsborough was closed before 1964. The network was so different in 1984 when I travelled on it!
 

YorksLad12

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Not worth including on the map, as it did not serve local stations, but until circa 1964/65, some expresses between Sheffield & Leeds avoided Rotherham by running via Wombwell (West), and then the connection from Monk Spring Jn to Cudworth.

And a technicality -- I suppose you show the ECML north of Doncaster (the black line) that way for reasons of clarity, but it actually runs to the west of Thorne & Goole, so I found it slightly confusing when I first looked at the latest version.
Ta. Yes, if it didn't call at any intermediate stations, safe to leave that off. And yes on the ECML; I'd forgotten to include it as there are no stations between York, Selby and Doncaster, then realised that Selby was directly under York! And saved lots of fiddly bits where the other two lines would have crossed twice. I wanted to put the curve towards Doncaster in north of Thorne North rather than split the two Thorne stations but there's not enough room for the station label.

It’s a great map. Only one small thing: I think goldsborough was closed before 1964. The network was so different in 1984 when I travelled on it!
You know, I was so happy that I'd remembered Goldsborough (soon to be Flaxby, all being well) that I neglected to check when it closed. Something for version 0.17 :)
 

zin92

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A really good map. A minor quibble is that where you have blobs, it's not always obvious what the through routes through the blob are. For example, Shipley: which of Leeds-Bradford, Leeds-Skipton and Skipton-Bradford are through routes? I'm guessing that it's possible to travel Leeds-Bradford and Leeds-Skipton without changing but that Skipton-Bradford needs a change at Shipley. Similarly Low Moor and Penistone.

Regards
 

eastwestdivide

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I'm more keen on 'tramlines' than dotted lines, but they're a pain to do (effectively, one thin white line on top of a coloured one, so harder to shuffle around - it's the way the arrows are done).
Odd that there's no such line style (stroke style) of two parallel lines. I just looked in Inkscape, Adobe Illustrator and Affinity Designer, and couldn't see any easy way to do it in any of them. Surprisingly, those line styles do exist in Adobe InDesign (where it's known as stroke type - there's thick-thick and thin-thin)

I still need to check out the comment about ex-GC trains taking a different route at Woodhouse, and there really ought to be an arrow at Victoria for trains to Nottingham.
Bodged blue arrow on the attached shows the rough location for your GC to Nottingham arrow
 

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YorksLad12

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A really good map. A minor quibble is that where you have blobs, it's not always obvious what the through routes through the blob are. For example, Shipley: which of Leeds-Bradford, Leeds-Skipton and Skipton-Bradford are through routes? I'm guessing that it's possible to travel Leeds-Bradford and Leeds-Skipton without changing but that Skipton-Bradford needs a change at Shipley. Similarly Low Moor and Penistone.

Regards
Point taken. I tried to be consistent; the colours show (through) routes, which is why I'm still in two minds about Leeds-Bradford, but I don't think there was a self-contained service then. The long tick marks show where services or routes intersect, usually not involving a change. The blobs show stations where there are major intersections (although, let's be fair, it's also where lines intersect at odd angles!).

In the real world there's be a timetable for each route which would make it clearer. And the answer is no, I'm not doing that :lol:


Odd that there's no such line style (stroke style) of two parallel lines. I just looked in Inkscape, Adobe Illustrator and Affinity Designer, and couldn't see any easy way to do it in any of them. Surprisingly, those line styles do exist in Adobe InDesign (where it's known as stroke type - there's thick-thick and thin-thin)


Bodged blue arrow on the attached shows the rough location for your GC to Nottingham arrow
Interesting on those other packages. I suppose one way to do it would be to compose the line as a series of rectangles (with curves where required), combine them then give the final shape a border. Frankly, easier to copy, paste and change the width & colour - just more difficult to edit afterwards.

I added the arrow to Victoria but it looks too cramped given how close it is to Midland so will move the "to Chesterfield, Nottingham, Leicester and London" label and arrow to Woodhouse and slide the Kivetons a bit to the right.

And then... I think we're almost there! Next (and final) version should be version 1, with the explanatory text.
 

JRT

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Presumably the GC arrow could share that label with the corresponding Midland arrow with a bit of jiggling
The GC route went a different route, to Nottingham Victoria

A really good map. A minor quibble is that where you have blobs, it's not always obvious what the through routes through the blob are. For example, Shipley: which of Leeds-Bradford, Leeds-Skipton and Skipton-Bradford are through routes? I'm guessing that it's possible to travel Leeds-Bradford and Leeds-Skipton without changing but that Skipton-Bradford needs a change at Shipley. Similarly Low Moor and Penistone.

Regards
There was definitely a Leeds City– Bradford Forster Square and a Skipton– Bradford at the time, as they were the original Services. The Carlisle– Nottingham train didn't call at Shipley as there were no platforms on the north side (now 1&2). Some Morecambe–Leeds trains called at Bradford . The Skipton– Leeds locals did a complicated manœuvre to call at Shipley.
 
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Revaulx

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Point taken. I tried to be consistent; the colours show (through) routes, which is why I'm still in two minds about Leeds-Bradford, but I don't think there was a self-contained service then. The long tick marks show where services or routes intersect, usually not involving a change. The blobs show stations where there are major intersections (although, let's be fair, it's also where lines intersect at odd angles!).

In the real world there's be a timetable for each route which would make it clearer. And the answer is no, I'm not doing that :lol:



Interesting on those other packages. I suppose one way to do it would be to compose the line as a series of rectangles (with curves where required), combine them then give the final shape a border. Frankly, easier to copy, paste and change the width & colour - just more difficult to edit afterwards.

I added the arrow to Victoria but it looks too cramped given how close it is to Midland so will move the "to Chesterfield, Nottingham, Leicester and London" label and arrow to Woodhouse and slide the Kivetons a bit to the right.

And then... I think we're almost there! Next (and final) version should be version 1, with the explanatory text.
I don’t think Chesterfield was served from Victoria by 1964. All the intermediate stations on the GC London extension north of Nottingham, including the Chesterfield loop, closed in 1963.
 

eastwestdivide

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The GC route went a different route, to Nottingham Victoria
Yes but I was suggesting that, in order to save space, the two arrows on the two routes could share a list of destinations. But you'd have to remove Chesterfield from the list if the Chesterfield loop closed before the date of map.
 

YorksLad12

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Chesterfield Central closed in 1963, as did Killamarsh Central, so safe to assume that anything running that way was an express rather than a stopping servce (but will check, obvs). That just means adding Chesterfield (and Leicester?) to the arrow coming out of Dore & Totley, and removing the arrow I'd just added at Woodhouse.

Am now looking in a stern manner for the person who suggested including it... ;)
 

Bevan Price

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Another minor correction - there was no station at Kirk Sandall in 1964
 

eastwestdivide

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and removing the arrow I'd just added at Woodhouse.
Back in posts 42 and 44 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ices-in-1964-a-map.214154/page-2#post-4998440), services including the Newcastle-Bournemouth were mentioned as serving Sheffield Victoria and the GC mainline southwards in 1964. If that's so, then they would have reversed at Sheffield Vic, and run through Darnall and Woodhouse to turn south onto the GC mainline via that arrow. The GC mainline there was only closed as a through route in 1966, so it is a valid "onwards" arrow for the map, with perhaps just destination "Nottingham and the South". On the other hand, it seems like there were only a few services left running that way by then*, so perhaps not of great use on a map like this.
Chesterfield GC was only served by a loop off the GC mainline, and closed in 1963.

*research needed. Watch this space.
Edit: 2 or 3 each way, depending on the day of the week, through Sheff Vic from the north to Nottingham according to Timetable World's scan of the NE timetable, but were there perhaps others only between Sheff Vic and Nottingham? They wouldn't appear in a NE timetable
 
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YorksLad12

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Another minor correction - there was no station at Kirk Sandall in 1964
I wouldn't call that minor, but not the end of the world. Odd that Barnby Dun was still open, although they are/were quite close.

Back in posts 42 and 44 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ices-in-1964-a-map.214154/page-2#post-4998440), services including the Newcastle-Bournemouth were mentioned as serving Sheffield Victoria and the GC mainline southwards in 1964. If that's so, then they would have reversed at Sheffield Vic, and run through Darnall and Woodhouse to turn south onto the GC mainline via that arrow. The GC mainline there was only closed as a through route in 1966, so it is a valid "onwards" arrow for the map, with perhaps just destination "Nottingham and the South". On the other hand, it seems like there were only a few services left running that way by then*, so perhaps not of great use on a map like this.
Chesterfield GC was only served by a loop off the GC mainline, and closed in 1963.

*research needed. Watch this space.
Edit: 2 or 3 each way, depending on the day of the week, through Sheff Vic from the north to Nottingham according to Timetable World's scan of the NE timetable, but were there perhaps others only between Sheff Vic and Nottingham? They wouldn't appear in a NE timetable
Ta. I think I'll sacrifice operational accuracy here. Really, the note then needs moving back to Victoria, as you would travel from there to "Chesterfield", "Nottingham" and "Leicester" but not calling at Darnall or Woodhouse on the way - which was my worry to start with.

Design-wise it would be easier if Victoria were to the right of Midland. If I did that, I'd never hear the end of it!
 

30907

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The Skipton– Leeds locals did a complicated manœuvre to call at Shipley.
That was after the local services were withdrawn.
Just realised that Shipley should be shown solely on the Bradford line, with a direct (red) line across the top, as no Leeds-Skipton line trains called back in 1964.
 

YorksLad12

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That was after the local services were withdrawn.
Just realised that Shipley should be shown solely on the Bradford line, with a direct (red) line across the top, as no Leeds-Skipton line trains called back in 1964.
This brings us back to the vexed question of reinstating the Leeds-Bradford Line.

The 1964 timetable has services running:
  1. Bradford FS - Shipley - Leeds City
  2. Bradford FS - Ilkley - Skipton
  3. Bradford FS - Shipley - Keighley - Skipton
  4. Leeds City - Ilkley
It is reasonable - I think - to leave it, as you can catch a train from Leeds to Shipley (the one to FS). The first stop for some of the Leeds-Skipton services is Keighley, but there's no separate line for that.
 

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Bevan Price

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For information, the 1963/64 Winter Timetable (LMR) showed only these trains south of Sheffield Victoria on the GC London Extension.
22:22 (SX) York - Swindon
23:05 Manchester Central - London Marylebone
10:08 York - Bournemouth West
18:40 York - Swindon

10:50 Bournemouth West - York
19:15 Swindon - Sheffield Victoria
21:55 (SX)/22:45(SO) London Marylebone - Manchester Piccadilly
21:50 Swindon - York
No booked stops between Sheffield Victoria & Nottingham Victoria
Two each way also ran on Sundays
A few extra South Coast services ran SO in the Summer 1964 timetable.

Diverted sleepers (usually Euston) were running between Marylebone & Manchester, but not via Sheffield.
 

30907

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For information, the 1963/64 Winter Timetable (LMR) showed only these trains south of Sheffield Victoria on the GC London Extension.
22:22 (SX) York - Swindon
23:05 Manchester Central - London Marylebone
10:08 York - Bournemouth West
18:40 York - Swindon

10:50 Bournemouth West - York
19:15 Swindon - Sheffield Victoria
21:55 (SX)/22:45(SO) London Marylebone - Manchester Piccadilly
21:50 Swindon - York
No booked stops between Sheffield Victoria & Nottingham Victoria
Two each way also ran on Sundays
A few extra South Coast services ran SO in the Summer 1964 timetable.

Diverted sleepers (usually Euston) were running between Marylebone & Manchester, but not via Sheffield.
Thanks. And by Summer 64 IIRC (research upthread) the Swindons had gone.
(Edit: no they hadn't!)
 
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Bevan Price

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Thanks. And by Summer 64 IIRC (research upthread) the Swindons had gone.
No. The Swindons were still in the Summer 1964 and Winter 1964/65 timetables. (LMR). Will check 1965/66 timetables tomorrow (hopefully)
 

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This is a rally good piece of work. It's both practical and visually appealing.

One tiny niggle - the route via Heckmondwike should have a connecting spur to the Horbury route, to cater for the Saturdays Only Castleford - Blackpool North. You might choose to omit this, as it would pass right through the word "Ravensthorpe".

I've learned a lot from this piece of work, and from the contributions to this thread. Keep up the good work - and thanks everybody.
 

YorksLad12

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This is a rally good piece of work. It's both practical and visually appealing.

One tiny niggle - the route via Heckmondwike should have a connecting spur to the Horbury route, to cater for the Saturdays Only Castleford - Blackpool North. You might choose to omit this, as it would pass right through the word "Ravensthorpe".

I've learned a lot from this piece of work, and from the contributions to this thread. Keep up the good work - and thanks everybody.
I think (I thought) I asked that question myself, about the spur through Ravensthorpe Lower and on to Thornhill (thence to Kirkgate). I can fairly easily slip the Calder Valley Line out to Kirkgate. Getting through to Castleford, however, will take some thinking... and a bit of line-crossing, at first glance. I might have to cheat...

I'm aiming to have Version 1 out on Monday; partly because I've a job intervew on Wednesday and I really need to focus on that! I'm just sorting out the tick marks, which have become a bit unruly.
 

CW2

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I think (I thought) I asked that question myself, about the spur through Ravensthorpe Lower and on to Thornhill (thence to Kirkgate). I can fairly easily slip the Calder Valley Line out to Kirkgate. Getting through to Castleford, however, will take some thinking... and a bit of line-crossing, at first glance. I might have to cheat...

I'm aiming to have Version 1 out on Monday; partly because I've a job intervew on Wednesday and I really need to focus on that! I'm just sorting out the tick marks, which have become a bit unruly.
Good luck with the interview.
As for this issue, it doesn't deserve a lot of time to be spent on a once a week summer Saturdays only train, and certainly not a whole separate line.
I'd suggest an open (uncoloured) line connecting the Kirkgate to Mirfield line with the Mirfield to Heckmondwike line is all it merits, if anything.
 

30907

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No. The Swindons were still in the Summer 1964 and Winter 1964/65 timetables. (LMR). Will check 1965/66 timetables tomorrow (hopefully)
Apologies, don't know how I missed them (except that one ran via Doncaster).
 

YorksLad12

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Good luck with the interview.
As for this issue, it doesn't deserve a lot of time to be spent on a once a week summer Saturdays only train, and certainly not a whole separate line.
I'd suggest an open (uncoloured) line connecting the Kirkgate to Mirfield line with the Mirfield to Heckmondwike line is all it merits, if anything.
And one between Normanton and Kirkgate. Also, turns out to be more difficult than I thought extending the line out, as the Hallam Line gets in the way as it runs though the Kirkgate circle.
 

Grumpy

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If you're including seasonal trains then there used to be a train from the North East to Blackpool that ran via Harrogate and Otley. Not sure if it was still running in 1964.
Around about this time there were also some York-Selby-Hull trains that routed via Church Fenton. These were loco hauled and ran that way to avoid reversal at Selby. Not sure if they made intermediate calls.
And speaking of Selby, Hemingborough station, approx 2 miles east was still open and had through trains to Leeds.
 

Bevan Price

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No. The Swindons were still in the Summer 1964 and Winter 1964/65 timetables. (LMR). Will check 1965/66 timetables tomorrow (hopefully)
Can now confirm that the York/Swindons remained in the timetables up to the final 1966 timetable before the GC London Extension closed south of Rugby in 1966.
 
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