West Yorkshire.... Common Sense???

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Andrew Nelson, 26 Sep 2010.

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  1. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    Very quick one.

    Today (Sunday) I went to the very good model Rail Show at Halifax, and afterwords wanted to get the Train Home to Mirfield. Having got the Bus to Halifax earlier in the Day.

    I was told by the Clark that I had to go via Huddersfield as this was the ONLY valid route.

    as it was 13.15, I had to wait for the 14.48 apparently, and change at Huddersfield onto the 15.58 getting into Mirfield at 16.06, almost a full 3 hours!!!!

    I couldn't see much sense in this, so I called the Peeps at Northern, to ask if this was correct, as being a normal person, I have a Metro Timetable in My back pocket at all times, and could see, if I got the 13.28 to Leeds, and then the 14.44 to Mirfield, I could be home at 15.08, a smidge under an Hour earlier.... And as this is only about 4 miles further (I can't say 100% accurately, since NR removed the Mileage Tables from the Timetables) maybe a bit more, but not much.

    Bear in mind, that Sunday service is only once every 2 Hours on both the Leeds to Huddersfield Local routes, and Monday to Saturday there are direct Halifax to Mirfield Trains, that take rather less than One Hour, a person should be able to take the quicker route, even if it is slightly longer.

    I can understand this being not possible on a Weekday, but with such poor service on Sundays surely common sense should dictate otherwise????

    When We have anomalies like the Middlesbrough round robbin, why are Passengers who have some intelligence expected to sit around all day.

    BTW, I have a OAP pass, so the fair would be the same flat 50p.

    Oh, I forgot, ovbviously the ticket said "any permitted"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Sep 2010
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  3. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Some ticket clerks can be a pain, I'd have got on the train and asked the (probably) friendly guard for the best ticket.

    I can't find 50p fares in Avantix Traveller, are they single fares? A return from Brighouse to Leeds would certainly have done the trick!
     
  4. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    As I said "I have a OAP pass, so the fair would be the same flat 50p."

    Yes, 50p / Single Journey.
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    It's only £1 then to go via Leeds, 50p Halifax-Leeds; 50p Leeds-Mirfield. Did the ticket clerk offer that? I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if not!
     
  6. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    That's not the bloody point. Why should I double the cost?
     
  7. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    Well if it wasn't a valid route that'd be your only option
     
  8. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    Okay.

    1) A ticket that says "Any Permitted" when there is only one is not helpful.

    2) The Leeds route is on the journey Planner anyway, without and extra information about is not being a valid option.

    3) How could it be fair to expect anybody to have a journey with 2 hours waiting time, when there is a sensible alternative?

    Just a thought.
     
  9. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    1) Any permitted means, any permitted route, opposed to 'Route xx' found on some tickets
    2) If you had a printout of this with you, then they couldn't really have charged you extra
    3) Well you should have checked the times? It isn't their fault
     
  10. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    1) As You say, any permitted, unless You have the Holy Grail (Routing Guide) this means nothing.

    2) Sorry, don't carry a Laptop and Printer at all times.

    3) It's their fault there is only 1 Train every 2 hours.

    (Sorry, if Your another Northern Troll).
     
  11. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I think £1 is a very cheap price to pay! You don't have to double the cost, you can take the next train via the cheaper route. £1 is still a bargain! If £1 is too much, you could take the bus?

    I'm reluctant to spend further time trying to help with someone with that sort of attitude, sorry.
     
  12. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    I'm really sorry, that you'd of have to part with 50p to get home an hour earlier. Its 50p?!

    No, its your fault for not reading the timetable before you turned up. And actually East Coast says you can only travel via huddersfield
     
  13. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

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    So would it make a difference if the choice of fares was £50 or £100? This is just plain daft, yet another example where the tyranny of the routing guide works against any sensible passenger.
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm not so sure it does work against the passenger in this case. It is a lot further via Leeds. It's 9.5 miles direct (although you nearly always would have to go into & out of Huddersfield first! So call it 15.75 miles) versus 29 miles via Leeds.

    Maybe Leeds should be a higher priced Any Permitted and via Brighouse should be "Route Brighouse", but really you should expect to pay a premium to go such a long way round. £1 is a bargain.

    I think if someone had paid £3.20 for a SDS and had a polite word with the guard, they'd probably be shown discretion and allowed to go via Leeds. But when someone who gets tickets at dirt cheap prices starts having a go, I'd expect that to get their backs up and for the customer to be rightly charged £1.
     
  15. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    It is on the National Rail journey planner, which shows that you need to buy two separate tickets.

    Admittedly, the website is rubbish, and it doesn't tell you this until you check the fares.
     
  16. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    There are a huge amount of fare anomalies in West Yorkshire. For example, Huddersfield to Castleford is valid via Leeds yet is considerably cheaper than the Huddersfield to Leeds fare. Huddersfield to Wakefield has Rte Leeds and Rte Not Leeds fares, quite sensibly. But other stations which have 2 routes, such as Bradford, do not. Huddersfield to Bradford only has one Any Permitted fare, which is valid via Leeds, but is about half the price of Huddersfield to Leeds. The list is endless. I wrote a lengthy paper nearly 2 years ago on this which was passed onto the pricing teams at TPE, Northern and Metro. Both TPE and Metro said they shared my concerns on the myriad problems but the fares were set by Norther and all they could do was talk to Northern. Northern appears to have completely ignored it, saying how complicated it is to fix and how short staffed they are. But since then have managed to create more anomalies elsewhere.

     
  17. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    "Huddersfield to Bradford only has one Any Permitted fare, which is valid via Leeds"

    So, what You are saying is, a journey that DOES have a direct journey on a Sunday can use 2 trains via Leeds, and yet mine who has no direct journeys can't.

    And Yes You HAVE to go via Huddersfield, as there are no Brighouse to Mirfield Trains on Sundays.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Okay, forget the 50p or £1, if I was paying the normal fair, this would be more than double.

    It matters not one iota if it's 1p to 2p. It is double the fair on a journey only considdered because of the frankly apauling service offererd by Northern.

    In Manchester there are new services introduced with an Hourly frequency from the outset.

    Anybody who actually uses the service between say Leeds and Huddersfield on a Sunday, knows these Trains are often full and standing. There are the passengers, give Us the service. (Both TPX and Northern).
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Well, I obviously didn't check the prices, as I said I have a flat fair Pass.

    But please send Me the link that mentions two seperate tickets.

    Ta.
     
  18. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    Two issues here really (which are linked but separate):

    * An apparently inadequate Sunday service on the routes you wanted to travel
    * An absence of through fares enabling you to take an alternative route

    There's no way round this as such, in that the restrictions you had to deal with conform to the routeing guide etc; the other route is not valid. So I'd suggest your only action - and one which above posts suggest might not work that well - would be to write to WYPTE&Northern to point out this anomaly and suggest that they either put on more trains, or make a 'via Leeds' route/fare available.
     
  19. 185

    185 Established Member

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    Two points.

    1. Any Permitted, as great as it sound (ie Via Paris?) actually means "Any of the permitted routes", and not wherever you want, unfortunately.

    2. Generally, with West Yorkshire 50p elderly / disabled fares, most of us guards with common sense aren't bothered about their routing. The 50p charge is a total nuisance - indeed the two neighbouring PTEs, Merseytravel and GMPTE both give their elderly/disabled totally free travel, so in my view any guard that picks on routing of these 50p concession tickets (assumning all the journey is in West Yorks) has far too much time on his hands, and should be concentrating the 11 real fare dodgers hiding in the bog.
     
  20. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    I totlay agree, I realy shouldn't have bothered mentioning the Pass. The point stands, whatever You are expected to pay.

    But, My point still stands, if You have ristrictions, You must make them clear, and until the Routing Guide is available for Public View. The TOC's legaly do not have a leg to stand on, if they peanalise Passengers for doing somthing that nobody has actually said wouldn't have been the sensible thin to do in this situation.

    As You rightly point out, nobody but the most pedantic of "Jobsworths" would even have batted an eylid at this, if I had indeed gon the quicker, and more convinient Long way around.

    Just the clark at Halifax, whith an attitude problem.

    (Thats for another time though).
     
  21. Greenback

    Greenback Emeritus Moderator

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    The routeing guide is available for public view.
     
  22. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    I don't wish to get into an argument but I do find your attitude somewhat irritating.

    The local train services in West Yorkshire are mainly subsidised by Metro, ie West Yorkshire Tax Payers. The level of service provided is generally good, and is no doubt about right for level of traffic on offer or the amount of revenue available. There are many parts of the country which have no Sunday service at all.

    Just because the timetable on offer does not meet your needs does not mean there is anything drastically wrong with it. Nor does it mean you can go whereever you want with whatever ticket you want. To compare with buses in your area, someone who didn't have a free travel pass couldn't buy a First Day ticket which is only valid on First Buses, then decide to use it on a service offered by Centrebus just because they didn't like the times or couldn't be bothered to wait for a First Bus. The timetables are published for a reason.

    And on the subject of Manchester there are many routes which, by comparison, have a far lower quality of service than West Yorkshire.


    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    No, the clerk does not have an attitude problem, I think you do. The Clerk appears to have done their job and has given you the correct information as to where and when your ticket is valid. Just because you do not like the information you are given does not mean they have an attitude problem.

     
  23. Greenback

    Greenback Emeritus Moderator

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    Why has the clerk got an attitude problem? You were given the correct information, as has been established earlier in this thread.
     
  24. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Erm......

    http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

    No passwords, no internal only document, free to view by anyone.....

    Surely by now Greenback, you will have recognised the passengers right to criticise any railway staff as either jobsworths, poorly trained, idiotic, or a combination of them all. They can never be right, helpful, informative or anything positive because that would mean the op would have put up with actually having to abide by the rules and being inconvenienced by them.

    Customers are always right remember!;)
     
  25. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    I imagine there is nothing clearer than telling somebody the restriction, in person.
    But, when they actually do that, they are 'jobsworths'?

    Personally, I think that for 'Any Permitted' tickets then the quickest route should also be valid, as well as the shortest route. You could disallow break of journey if it causes major fare anomolies.
     
  26. Greenback

    Greenback Emeritus Moderator

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    Indded!

    If you ask a question and don't like the answer, it's not the fault of the person who replies, assuming that the answer is correct! In this case, I'm wondering if a 'discussion' ensued, which led the OP to label the clerk as having an attitude problem.

    On the face of it, that seems like a sensible suggestion.
     
  27. reb0118

    reb0118 Established Member Fares Advisor

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    On a similar thought:-

    There are no through services on the EGS (Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Shotts) line on a Sunday. There is, however, a two hourly service from West Calder to Edinburgh only. On a Sunday, therefore, can a passenger use a ticket (route any permitted) from Livingston South to Glasgow Cen/Qst and travel via Haymarket & Falkirk?

    eg a SDS priced @ £6.50
     
  28. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

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    Not exactly the best organised or most convenient document though, is it? If you consulted this for every new journey, you'd miss the train. This is a specialist document masquerading as something for the general public, and needs a lot of work doing!
     
  29. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    I find it quite simple to use, most journeys can be worked out in five to ten minutes.
     
  30. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I can't disagree with that! When someone posts here asking for advice and within a very short space of time calls people trolls and moaning over 50p, alarm bells start ringing.

    reb0118 - If that's the shortest available route, I'd say yes. If it's just infrequent on a Sunday then, no.

    Infrequency isn't an excuse to go via an invalid route (but if you ask a guard nicely they may show discretion).

    uksweet - I don't think the Routeing Guide is the best of documents to use, but at least it's not kept secret and is available for free (the restriction codes for off-peak tickets are another matter...!), but really this is a journey of 29 miles via Leeds compared to 9 direct and 15 via the shortest available train. I don't see how the RG is at fault here.

    This isn't a routeing issue; it's a frequency issue.

    Northern do not decide on frequency. It will be decided by West Yorkshire PTE. A higher frequency means charging more taxes, something I'd support but many car owners wouldn't.
     
  31. Oswyntail

    Oswyntail Established Member

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    And I presume you know roughly what you are doing. If you are an infrequent rail traveller, this is likely to deter you rather than encourage, in the same way that the plethora of restrictions on fares does. There is a different way of doing things via network theory that would take the burden off the customer while ensuring fairness for providers. But it would take a lot of groundwork.
     
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