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West Yorkshire.... Common Sense???

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clagmonster

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The instructions section of the routeing guide says the following:
"It is appreciated that on occasions customers may claim that the National
Routeing Guide now prevents them from travelling via a route that was
previously valid for them to travel on under the ‘any reasonable route’ ruling.
In such instances the following procedures should be followed."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

Now, the route via Brighouse was reopened to passenger services after privatisation, so it is possible that it was reopened after the routeing guide was introduced. In that case, at the end of the use of reasonable routes, Halifax-Mirfield via Leeds would surely have been considered reasonable, as the only alternative would be an even longer detour via Manchester. Therefore, there would surely be a case in this instance to lodge a routeing dispute.

Now, if this were succeed, leaving the fares as they are would surely create all sorts of anomalies, so surely the most logical thing to do would be to making the current fares route 'not Leeds' and introduce route any permitted fares at a slightly higher rate than the Halifax-Leeds fare. Presumably the West Yorks concession fares would still be 50p single.

In the meantime, I agree that the best solution is to split the ticket if wanting to take this route. In the case of concession fares, the most logical place to do this would be Leeds.
 

dan_atki

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Fairs are set in the main by a centrally managed system that would be Illigal in any other Industry. Imaging if Arriva and First Bus Companys started to fix fairs between them....

Eh? Could we have a source for this statement please?

Collusion does not occur in the rail industry at all. Fares for each flow are priced by a pre-determined 'lead operator' on that flow, normally the TOC who operates the most distance/frequency on that flow. ORCATS distribution then divides up the revenue an allocates it for each of these flows to each of the operators who could have been used.

E.g. Take Luton to Bedford. First Capital Connect operate the most frequent service so price the fare and get the most income from it. However, East Midlands Trains also operates on the route at a lesser extent and receive a lesser share of the income of sales of this particular ticket to reflect this.

TOCs were so afraid of being brought against the courts for collusion when London zonal fares were introduced (obviously, they'd have to agree, set, and implement fares to reflect a zonal structure), the only answer was for ATOC to take control themselves for National Rail fares entirely within the London Travelcard zones.

As I said, if you know something we don't about fares being set centrally and not as I've described above, then I'm sure a lot of us will be very interested to hear it.

I agree. What could have been an interesting and useful debate about Sunday services, and the possibility of alternative routes on Sundays only, has been ruined by the aggressive, confrontational and arrogant nature of the OP's posts.

Let's hope that this can be achieved in subsequent posts. I'm not locking this topic just yet but I've got my sights on new posts within.
 

bnm

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What TOC do You own then, so I can use My democratic right to Aviod it?

I'm wondering whether uksweet thinks that the post count league table (ie Greenback is a "TOC Owner") is actually a real statement? :D

I'n certainly not, nor ever have been a "Retail Service Manager":lol:
 

dan_atki

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I'm wondering whether uksweet thinks that the post count league table (ie Greenback is a "TOC Owner") is actually a real statement? :D

Possibly, but even I think 50p for a First Class ticket is a bargain! ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anybody would be expected to pay Doubble or More.

On a similar note, but not exactly the same situation - there wasn't even a fare for a journey I wished to undertake, let alone a valid routeing:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20388

It is a very interesting course of events, because through my persuasion I managed to get the fare created for the journey. Power to the people, literally. I would suggest you take a similar course of action as I did and see the result.
 

John @ home

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the route via Brighouse was reopened to passenger services after privatisation, so it is possible that it was reopened after the routeing guide was introduced. In that case, at the end of the use of reasonable routes, Halifax-Mirfield via Leeds would surely have been considered reasonable
Very well spotted, clagmonster!

This weekend I will have the chance to check the first (1996) edition of the Routeing Guide, the re-opening date of the line through Brighouse and the history of the West Yorkshire concessionary flat fare. I will report my findings here.
 

OwlMan

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In September 2005 the available mapped routes was the same as now (Map SY).
In November 2003 the valid map was PN (see attachment). It was then valid to travel via Leeds and Dewsbury or Leeds & Wakefield as well as via Brighouse; it was also valid via Manchester.

Peter
 

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  • Segment 001 of D 20031212.pdf
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MCR247

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Rubbish again There's a direct Train between Wakefield and Leeds, Via Mirfield, Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford and New Pudsey. are You trying to tell Me that is the same fair?

If not, then Your theory about York - Leeds via Harrogate is wrong too.

A direct train is always valid, whether it is quickest/slowest or shortest/longest
 

Greenback

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Now, the route via Brighouse was reopened to passenger services after privatisation, so it is possible that it was reopened after the routeing guide was introduced. In that case, at the end of the use of reasonable routes, Halifax-Mirfield via Leeds would surely have been considered reasonable, as the only alternative would be an even longer detour via Manchester. Therefore, there would surely be a case in this instance to lodge a routeing dispute.

Now, if this were succeed, leaving the fares as they are would surely create all sorts of anomalies, so surely the most logical thing to do would be to making the current fares route 'not Leeds' and introduce route any permitted fares at a slightly higher rate than the Halifax-Leeds fare. Presumably the West Yorks concession fares would still be 50p single.

In the meantime, I agree that the best solution is to split the ticket if wanting to take this route. In the case of concession fares, the most logical place to do this would be Leeds.

This crossed my mind yesterday afternoon, but I was unsure of the actual geography and didn;t have time to check! I wouldn't be surprised if the fares were lowered when the direct line was reopened, as a way of encouraging use.

I agree that a solution would be to introduce a route 'Not Leeds' and a 'via Leeds' route. In the meantime, two seperate tickets will be necessary, as is the case for in other parts of the country where there aren't permitted routes for the journey you may wish to make.

Let's hope that this can be achieved in subsequent posts. I'm not locking this topic just yet but I've got my sights on new posts within.

I hope so too.

Seems to me that the OP must be auditioning for a spot on Grumpy Old Men!

According to Mrs Greenback, I should be on that show!
 

John @ home

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In November 2003 the valid map was PN ... It was then valid to travel via Leeds and Dewsbury or Leeds & Wakefield as well as via Brighouse; it was also valid via Manchester.
Thanks a lot, Peter.

I suspect the next stage is a FoI request to WYITA asking for a copy of the correspondence between their predecessor WYPTE and other bodies prior to the introduction of this route restriction for a flow where they set the fare.
 

Andrew Nelson

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A direct train is always valid, whether it is quickest/slowest or shortest/longest

Well, that's deffo against Common sense..... Weather legal or not.

But, how about the Fair structure between say Mirfield and Wakefield.

Hardly the Customers fault there are no direct Trains on a Sunday, and the via Leeds fare is far more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Very well spotted, clagmonster!

This weekend I will have the chance to check the first (1996) edition of the Routeing Guide, the re-opening date of the line through Brighouse and the history of the West Yorkshire concessionary flat fare. I will report my findings here.

Brighouse opened 2000 at the Timetable change.

Day before the bank hol Monday we did all WY stations.
 

dan_atki

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Well, that's deffo against Common sense..... Weather legal or not.

Why is it against common sense? Most people would like to make a journey with the least number of changes possible and the Routeing Guide takes this into account.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Very well spotted, clagmonster!

This weekend I will have the chance to check the first (1996) edition of the Routeing Guide, the re-opening date of the line through Brighouse and the history of the West Yorkshire concessionary flat fare. I will report my findings here.

In the '96' version, Halifax had routeing points of Bradford, Manchester and Blackburn. Mirfield had Leeds, Huddersfield and Wakefield.

I don't have the relevant fares data, but Bradford-Huddersfield was on map MM (Bradford-Leeds-York-Doncaster-Sheffield-Huddersfield).
 

Deerfold

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Well, that's deffo against Common sense..... Weather legal or not.

But, how about the Fair structure between say Mirfield and Wakefield.

Hardly the Customers fault there are no direct Trains on a Sunday, and the via Leeds fare is far more.

Are you now arguing there should be *more* restrictions on which routes can be taken?
 

Andrew Nelson

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Are you now arguing there should be *more* restrictions on which routes can be taken?

No, if a direct is not running, then I just think it is unfair to make people pay for a much longer journey trough no fault of their own....

That would be the ONLY time I think a TOC could penalise for breaking journey and leaving the Station.

So: if I travel Mirfield to Wakefield via Leeds, because there is No Direct Service, the fair should be the same as direct, as long as I dont go through the Barriers at Leeds.

We don't expect people pay more to travel between Newcastle and Edinbrough when the direct ECML is shut afterall.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you now arguing there should be *more* restrictions on which routes can be taken?

How the heck can You think that from what I just said?
 

Deerfold

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How the heck can You think that from what I just said?

Calm down.

You said that you thought it was against common sense that you could always catch a direct train even if it wasn't the quickest route.

Presumably the only alternative would be that sometimes you couldn't.
 

MikeWh

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There is a bit of a difference between the ECML being shut for engineering works when of course the tickets will be allowed via a diversionary route, and a line being shut every Sunday.
 

Deerfold

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There is a bit of a difference between the ECML being shut for engineering works when of course the tickets will be allowed via a diversionary route, and a line being shut every Sunday.

It's not shut - just infrequent. Every 2 hours + occasional GC trains which don't stop at useful places for the OP - Brighouse is a bit short and Wakefield Kirkgate's an overshoot - and I wouldn't wish WK on anyone!
 
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hairyhandedfool

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No, if a direct is not running, then I just think it is unfair to make people pay for a much longer journey trough no fault of their own....

They are not being made to do any such thing. The choice they are left with is....

Pay more to go via Leeds, or

Wait for the train to Huddersfield.
 

yorkie

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How the heck can You think that from what I just said?
I share the view of Deerfold that you implied that you believe direct trains that take a long way round should not be valid for such journeys, although you actually said it was "against common sense".
 

Andrew Nelson

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I share the view of Deerfold that you implied that you believe direct trains that take a long way round should not be valid for such journeys, although you actually said it was "against common sense".

Sorry, that is NOT what I said.

I Said commonsense would dictate tho' it may be a legal route, it is much longer, and more importantly slower.
So, against Common Sense, not against the Rules.

IF, You can cast Your mind back to the begining, I sugested somthing that would get Me between two points QUICKER, that's what this thread was suposed to be about, before some started talking about bargain at only 50p / £1.00 and before anybody actually looked at the old RG.

Do You go out of Your way to twist what People actually say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's not shut - just infrequent. Every 2 hours + occasional GC trains which don't stop at useful places for the OP - Brighouse is a bit short and Wakefield Westgate's an overshoot - and I wouldn't wish WW on anyone!

No, it is not every 2 hours.

It is shut. there are NO Trains between Mirfield and Wakefield, and why the heck would I go to Huddersfield to go to Wakefield?
 
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dan_atki

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Do You go out of Your way to twist what People actually say.

And do you go out of your way to make snide remarks at everyone who says something you disagree with?

Take this as your last warning - next time the thread will be locked and you will be infracted. This forum is not here to vent personal grievances towards other members and you've had enough warnings.
 

yorkie

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Sorry, that is NOT what I said.

I Said commonsense would dictate tho' it may be a legal route, it is much longer, and more importantly slower.
So, against Common Sense, not against the Rules.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=503479&postcount=72

No, MCR said it is "against common sense" in response to MCR247 saying it was "valid", to me (and Deerfold and, doubtless, many others) that reads as you saying that common sense would make it not valid.

MCR247 said:
A direct train is always valid, whether it is quickest/slowest or shortest/longest
You replied:

uksweet said:
Well, that's deffo against Common sense..... Weather legal or not.
 

Deerfold

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No, it is not every 2 hours.

It is shut. there are NO Trains between Mirfield and Wakefield, and why the heck would I go to Huddersfield to go to Wakefield?

I'm sorry-i'm confused.
I was referring to the halifax to huddersfield
Train being every 2 hours. I thought you were going to mirfield, not wakefield
 

Andrew Nelson

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I'm sorry-i'm confused.
I was referring to the halifax to huddersfield
Train being every 2 hours. I thought you were going to mirfield, not wakefield

So, again, it's MY fault that You didn't bother reading the post.

But then it's My fault for actually writing in correct English.

Forget it, some people can't understand simple concepts.

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CLOSE AND DELETE SOME POSTERS JUST AREN'T INTELIGENT ENOUGH TO CONCEVE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QUICKER LONGER AND CONVINIENCE.

BTW, Metro say they beleve Halifax - Leeds - Mirfield IS a valid route, and only needs One Ticket.

BYE.
 
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bnm

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smiley-bangheadonwall-yellow.gif
 

Deerfold

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Very quick one.

Today (Sunday) I went to the very good model Rail Show at Halifax, and afterwords wanted to get the Train Home to Mirfield. Having got the Bus to Halifax earlier in the Day.

Am I missing something? Why do you need a train that goes to wakefield.

And as for correct english, your spelling and grammar has to be amongst the worst I've ever seen on this board - I was refraining from commenting on it, but I can't let that pass when you comment on it being correct.

You really don't have to insult everyone - I was trying to understand so I could help. I think I'm seeing why you're having such problems if this is how you deal with life as well as the internet.

For what it's worth I don't think it's a ridiculous route to go via Leeds on a Sunday when it's quicker but that doesn't mean you should be told it's valid when it's not. Fortunately I'm usually on a day rover in West Yorkshire so don't have to worry about routeing.
 
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Andrew Nelson

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Am I missing something? Why do you need a train that goes to Wakefield.

And as for correct English, your spelling and grammar has to be amongst the worst I've ever seen on this board - I was refraining from commenting on it, but I can't let that pass when you comment on it being correct.

You really don't have to insult everyone - I was trying to understand so I could help. I think I'm seeing why you're having such problems if this is how you deal with life as well as the Internet.

For what it's worth I don't think it's a ridiculous route to go via Leeds on a Sunday when it's quicker but that doesn't mean you should be told it's valid when it's not. Fortunately I'm usually on a day rover in West Yorkshire so don't have to worry about routing.

The post You were replying to (Not the thread) was about Mirfield to Wakefield.

As for grammar, when I went to school, People spoke English.

My spelling may not be perfect, as at 78, My keyboard skills may not be what they were.

If, You just read the first post, and then answer Nealy 4 Days later, then It's quite obvious why You get confused.

I have won the argument on common sense ground, as to rule on routing, that is subject to an obvious disagreement between a TOC, and the group paying / Subsidizing the Service. Metro say Yes, Northern say No.


BTW, I have just had to correct 6 miss-spellings on Your last Post.

The Customer (Metro) sets the priorities, and therefore are the ones who can play the trump card.
 

Royston Vasey

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The post You were replying to (Not the thread) was about Mirfield to Wakefield.

As for grammar, when I went to school, People spoke English.

My spelling may not be perfect, as at 78, My keyboard skills may not be what they were.

If, You just read the first post, and then answer Nealy 4 Days later, then It's quite obvious why You get confused.

I have won the argument on common sense ground, as to rule on routing, that is subject to an obvious disagreement between a TOC, and the group paying / Subsidizing the Service. Metro say Yes, Northern say No.


BTW, I have just had to correct 6 miss-spellings on Your last Post.

The Customer (Metro) sets the priorities, and therefore are the ones who can play the trump card.

The guy was apologising to you, not blaming you! His spelling and grammar is fine whereby Yours [sic] is not.

"Miss-spellings" :D
 
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