West Yorkshire.... Common Sense???

[313103]

Very quick one.

Today (Sunday) I went to the very good model Rail Show at Halifax, and afterwords wanted to get the Train Home to Mirfield. Having got the Bus to Halifax earlier in the Day."

I have only read the first two pages on this thread and got pretty annoyed with you. I couldnt be bothered to read the other 5 pages, aside from having a go at more or less anyone who might probably know more then say you, you have harked on about the poor service provided by Northern Rail ( which i think you knew that anyway, but just wanted to rant it off on a public forum rather then complaining to the company itself).

My question to you would be if you got the bus there why didnt you get the bus back?

No i dont work for Northern Rail just in case you get paronoid, but i think you are totally unreasonable.

 

[MikeWh]

Also, you incorrectly changed routeing to routing in your quote Deerfold's post. A rout is a heavy defeat, not a description of how to get from a to b.

 

[cuccir]

Ignoring most of the discussion above, there is an interesting argument to be made here (I think) - it does seem a little counter-intuitive that the routeing guide stipulates shorter (mileage) rather than fastest (time). After all, customers don't care how far in space their journey is, they care about how long in time it takes.

Now, I presume that RG doesn't make allowances for the quickest route because at certain times, usually at the start and end of a day's service (see the Cleethorpes to New Clee thread) it can technically be faster to take an extremely long route between two stations?

Returning to the original argument, it does seem a shame that there can't be some sort of allowance made in the routeing guide where a ticket is valid on a longer (mileage) route if it is shown that at the time of departure of the first train, this route was quicker than the shorter route? Perhaps if following this condition all break of journeys would be prohibited, to stop people buying 'cheat' tickets?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I have only read the first two pages on this thread and got pretty annoyed with you. I couldnt be bothered to read the other 5 pages, aside from having a go at more or less anyone who might probably know more then say you, you have harked on about the poor service provided by Northern Rail ( which i think you knew that anyway, but just wanted to rant it off on a public forum rather then complaining to the company itself).

My question to you would be if you got the bus there why didnt you get the bus back?

No i dont work for Northern Rail just in case you get paronoid, but i think you are totally unreasonable.

As other Posters have already said, Northern take little if any notice of and Costomer comments or Complaints.

So, why would a sensible person bother anymore?

The best answer I ever got from them, was when a Rail Replacement bus failed to appear at Brighouse, the reply was : Sorry, We didn't employ anybodt to do it, as We didn't think Anybody would have used it.

AND, Would You like to point out what bit exactly is unreasonable?

Please be speciffic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ignoring most of the discussion above, there is an interesting argument to be made here (I think) - it does seem a little counter-intuitive that the routeing guide stipulates shorter (mileage) rather than fastest (time). After all, customers don't care how far in space their journey is, they care about how long in time it takes.

Now, I presume that RG doesn't make allowances for the quickest route because at certain times, usually at the start and end of a day's service (see the Cleethorpes to New Clee thread) it can technically be faster to take an extremely long route between two stations?

Returning to the original argument, it does seem a shame that there can't be some sort of allowance made in the routeing guide where a ticket is valid on a longer (mileage) route if it is shown that at the time of departure of the first train, this route was quicker than the shorter route? Perhaps if following this condition all break of journeys would be prohibited, to stop people buying 'cheat' tickets?

Thankyou thankyou thankyou. That was exactly My Point.

Just some People fail to see the Bleedin' Obvious.

 

[90019]

I have won the argument on common sense ground

You really haven't.
What you've done here is lost the argument by being, to be frank, an arse towards those who've answered and those who've tried to help. Though, of course, you don't actually want any help from us, as you clearly stated in one of your posts.

BTW, I have just had to correct 6 miss-spellings on Your last Post.

The irony!


I thought you were going anyway, after you said;

BYE.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, why would a sensible person bother anymore?

I don't know, but whatever the answer, it clearly doesn't apply here.

 

[Mr Spock]

Must admit I have not read all posts but going back to the first one the OP states that he had a timetable with him so he must have known that he had just missed a train but bought a ticket anyway.

He then expects to be able to go via an alternative route which is not a shorter or quicker route (end to end) i.e. the 14.48 train gets him there at 16.06 which is 78mins whereas the train via Leeds takes 100mins.

I do realise that at the time he was at the station the train via Leeds would have got him home earlier but it was his decision to turn up when he did.

 

[tony_mac]

thinking about it a bit more, it probably isn't reasonable to just allow quickest routes. I think it would be too confusing to have routes that are only allowed depending on the timetable, or when a train is delayed etc. Disallowing break of journey would also be confusing and impossible to police.

As has been pointed out, it would also allow crazy journeys like the Cleethorpes to New Clee route. Although you could avoid some of them with other rules, it could easily become unfeasibly complex.

BTW, I don't remember many (if any) people here that thought that the staff were acting at all unreasonably.
I certainly don't.

 

[Greenback]

I get the feeling that the OP wanted to go via Leeds, which is why he turned up when he did and got so upset when he was told, correctly apparently, that the route is not techincally valid.

Most people seem to agree that there should be two routeings, one allowing travel via Leeds, as this will enhance the customer's choice even more. However the OP doesn't agree and believes the fastest journey should also be permitted.

Unfortunately, the thread has agan become mired in insults and rudeness form the OP.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I get the feeling that the OP wanted to go via Leeds, which is why he turned up when he did and got so upset when he was told, correctly apparently, that the route is not techincally valid.


Yes it IS.

Most people seem to agree that there should be two routeings, one allowing travel via Leeds, as this will enhance the customer's choice even more. However the OP doesn't agree and believes the fastest journey should also be permitted.

What did You not understand there? "one allowing travel via Leeds" was the Quicker at that moment in time, and would be for over an Hour.

Unfortunately, the thread has agan become mired in insults and rudeness form the OP.

Metro, says it IS vallid HE Who pays the Piper Ect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

thinking about it a bit more, it probably isn't reasonable to just allow quickest routes. I think it would be too confusing to have routes that are only allowed depending on the timetable, or when a train is delayed etc. Disallowing break of journey would also be confusing and impossible to police.

As has been pointed out, it would also allow crazy journeys like the Cleethorpes to New Clee route. Although you could avoid some of them with other rules, it could easily become unfeasibly complex.

BTW, I don't remember many (if any) people here that thought that the staff were acting at all unreasonably.
I certainly don't.

Well, You obviously haven't bothered, at least two People have said that a refund should have been given immediately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

thinking about it a bit more, it probably isn't reasonable to just allow quickest routes. I think it would be too confusing to have routes that are only allowed depending on the timetable, or when a train is delayed etc. Disallowing break of journey would also be confusing and impossible to police.

As has been pointed out, it would also allow crazy journeys like the Cleethorpes to New Clee route. Although you could avoid some of them with other rules, it could easily become unfeasibly complex.

BTW, I don't remember many (if any) people here that thought that the staff were acting at all unreasonably.
I certainly don't.

"acting at all unreasonably"

Well, how about telling the Passenger about restrictions that We all agree most People would not be aware of, until after the transaction was made.

It's impossibe to make it any clearer than that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have only read the first two pages on this thread and got pretty annoyed with you. I couldnt be bothered to read the other 5 pages, aside from having a go at more or less anyone who might probably know more then say you, you have harked on about the poor service provided by Northern Rail ( which i think you knew that anyway, but just wanted to rant it off on a public forum rather then complaining to the company itself).

My question to you would be if you got the bus there why didnt you get the bus back?

No i dont work for Northern Rail just in case you get paronoid, but i think you are totally unreasonable.

No? But You are I presume by the RMT logo an Industry Insider.

AND, I would like Sombody, Anybody to point out exactly where I have been Unreasonable.... Especialy when You admit You haven't even bothered to properly read the post.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Well, You obviously haven't bothered, at least two People have said that a refund should have been given immediately....

Lets get that cleared up.

The ticket office clerk MAY decide to non-issue the ticket within a reasonable time. Otherwise you should apply for a refund. You would receive the fare paid for the ticket, minus a reasonable admin fee (in Northern Rail's case £5).

The railway was not at fault in this case, as far as I can see you decided you would prefer not to travel given the train times (something you might have been wise to check before buying the ticket).

If you alienated the clerk, or they don't like the way you dress, or whatever actually happened, and they won't non-issue it, the only remaining option is a refund.

"That'll be £4.50 please".

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Must admit I have not read all posts but going back to the first one the OP states that he had a timetable with him so he must have known that he had just missed a train but bought a ticket anyway.

He then expects to be able to go via an alternative route which is not a shorter or quicker route (end to end) i.e. the 14.48 train gets him there at 16.06 which is 78mins whereas the train via Leeds takes 100mins.

I do realise that at the time he was at the station the train via Leeds would have got him home earlier but it was his decision to turn up when he did.

No, I turned up when I did, becaus I thought there would be no problem doing what I wanted to do. I would have thought the Woman in the Ticket office should have stated what She did before. Instead of after the transaction.

She stated the Routing after I had paid, and without Me even asking, I hadn't asked as I had no idea it could have been a problem. As You say it was Quicker from that point in Time, maybe if I waited 100 years, I'd get a rocket Train in 3 Mins. But it's not going to happen.

Real People don't want to sit about for an Hour and a Half, they'd rather be in a Train moving, 'cos with Northern, what's to say the next one's even going to turn-up?

At 78, I think I've earnt the right to have an opinnion, and not to be patronized by little boys like 90019 who obviously are hardly out of short trousers.

You can have an opinion, but if You can't be bothered to find out the facts, it makes it an opinion nothing more. And as My late Husband used to say, Opinions are like bottoms, everyone has one, but I may not need to see it.

 

[Greenback]

Metro, says it IS vallid HE Who pays the Piper Ect.

Well, if the RG says it is not a permitted, that is the definitve answer, I'm afraid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lets get that cleared up.

The ticket office clerk MAY decide to non-issue the ticket within a reasonable time. Otherwise you should apply for a refund. You would receive the fare paid for the ticket, minus a reasonable admin fee (in Northern Rail's case £5).

The railway was not at fault in this case, as far as I can see you decided you would prefer not to travel given the train times (something you might have been wise to check before buying the ticket).

If you alienated the clerk, or they don't like the way you dress, or whatever actually happened, and they won't non-issue it, the only remaining option is a refund.

"That'll be £4.50 please".

I wouldn't like to think that a clerk treated someone any differently because of they way they dress.

 

[Royston Vasey]

She stated the Routing after I had paid, and without Me even asking

That is good customer service, surely? She made sure you got the right train and prevented you from encountering problems by trying to use an incorrect ticket? As it sounds like the lady implied, she doesn't make the rules up.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...I wouldn't like to think that a clerk treated someone any differently because of they way they dress.

I agree, but I don't know what happened, and I believe that whatever is said here in this thread is not likely to be the whole story, no matter how well intentioned it is.

 

[tony_mac]

Well, how about telling the Passenger about restrictions that We all agree most People would not be aware of, until after the transaction was made.

We do not all agree that most people would not be aware of it.
I imagine that most people wouldn't have thought about going via Leeds, and would have instead chosen to travel on the sensible route via Huddersfield.

You have your opinion, but your repeated protestations that it is universally held is a little tiresome.

at least two People have said that a refund should have been given immediately.

I had forgotten about that bit - I was one of them!

Yes, I agree that they absolutely should have refunded you, but I think that is the only thing they did wrong. And, for all I know, that refusal may have been precipitated by your behaviour. It would still have been wrong, but perhaps understandable.
Although, for the sake of 50p, I think that I would probably have let it go.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Well, if the RG says it is not a permitted, that is the definitve answer, I'm afraid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I wouldn't like to think that a clerk treated someone any differently because of they way they dress.

"something you might have been wise to check before buying the ticket"

Why?

I didn't think there would be a problem, She did however, but failed to mention it, without prompting until afterwords.

I notice nobody has mentioned the comment She made about "Not running the Trains"

By the way, I'm only 5' 2" and hardly a threat to anybody. Much like that chap in the Wheelchair bullied by several Northern Staff am Manchester London Road the other week.

 

[90019]

At 78, I think I've earnt the right to have an opinnion

You have the same right to an opinion as every one else, age doesn't come into it.

and not to be patronized by little boys like 90019 who obviously are hardly out of short trousers.

I really hope you're not like this in real life, though if you are, I'm not surprised you have problems with an attitude like that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By the way, I'm only 5' 2" and hardly a threat to anybody. Much like that chap in the Wheelchair bullied by several Northern Staff am Manchester London Road the other week.

The one whose story turned out to involve a lot of lying and exaggeration?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You have the same right to an opinion as every one else, age doesn't come into it.



I really hope you're not like this in real life, though if you are, I'm not surprised you have problems with an attitude like that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The one whose story turned out to involve a lot of lying and exaggeration?

What are those big brave Northern Staff so afraid of?

Really?

Was that a Press release from Northern?

I'd like to see that, can You give Me a link please?

By the way, why do You cherry-pick the post to miss-represent what was actually said?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We do not all agree that most people would not be aware of it.
I imagine that most people wouldn't have thought about going via Leeds, and would have instead chosen to travel on the sensible route via Huddersfield.

You have your opinion, but your repeated protestations that it is universally held is a little tiresome.

I had forgotten about that bit - I was one of them!

Yes, I agree that they absolutely should have refunded you, but I think that is the only thing they did wrong. And, for all I know, that refusal may have been precipitated by your behavior. It would still have been wrong, but perhaps understandable.
Although, for the sake of 50p, I think that I would probably have let it go.

No, that wasn't the only thing that was wrong, She failed to tell me about restrictions before the transaction, but was happy to tell Me afterwords, without being asked....

If She hadn't said anything more after the transaction, I'd have got the Train, the Guard would have said nothing, and I'd not have started the thread.
She made a mistake. And then refused to rectify it.

As for the continuous 50p jibe, don't forget, that's what Gordon Brown thought was an acceptable rise in the Weekly pension a few Years ago.

 

[Greenback]

I think this whole thread must be some sort of a joke. I think it;s time for it to be closed, before things get any worse.

 

[90019]

What are those big brave Northern Staff so afraid of?

Realy?

Was that a Press relese from Northern?

I'd like to see that, can You give Me a link please?

His story was picked apart on various forums including here and digitalspy.
Here are links to the threads for you to read through;
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1333391
http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35872

This post gives a particularly good analysis;
http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=488844#post488844

By the way, why do You cherry-pick the post to miss-represent what was actually said?

I separated the relevant paragraph that I intend to respond to, in this case I split a paragraph into two parts to answer them separately.
Can I ask how you think I misrepresented your post?

 

[tony_mac]

No, that wasn't the only thing that was wrong, She failed to tell me about restrictions before the transaction, but was happy to tell Me afterwords, without being asked....

and if you had a refund, then that wouldn't have been a problem, would it?

While they should point out the ticket restrictions, they are not under any obligation to tell you things that you should know. They would not tell you 'this ticket isn't valid via London, Bristol, Glasgow, etc...'.

I don't know why she decided to tell you, but that was being helpful more than anything. We don't know if / how you asked for a refund, and if / how it was refused.

If She hadn't said anything more after the transaction, I'd have got the Train, the Guard would have said nothing, and I'd not have started the thread.

The guard may have charged you full price for a valid ticket, who knows. He would have been entitled to.

If you were so sure that you were right, you could have just boarded the train anyway.

She made a mistake.

No, I don't think she did.

And then refused to rectify it.

She was quite possibly wrong - but only the two of you know the exact circumstances.

But anyway, you have your beliefs, which obviously aren't going to change, however much is written on the subject.
But not everybody shares them.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

and if you had a refund, then that wouldn't have been a problem, would it?

While they should point out the ticket restrictions, they are not under any obligation to tell you things that you should know. They would not tell you 'this ticket isn't valid via London, Bristol, Glasgow, etc...'.

I don't know why she decided to tell you, but that was being helpful more than anything. We don't know if / how you asked for a refund, and if / how it was refused.


The guard may have charged you full price for a valid ticket, who knows. He would have been entitled to.

If you were so sure that you were right, you could have just boarded the train anyway.


No, I don't think she did.


She was quite possibly wrong - but only the two of you know the exact circumstances.

But anyway, you have your beliefs, which obviously aren't going to change, however much is written on the subject.
But not everybody shares them.

No, that is quite true, but most do. Also most said the Guard wouldn't have had a problem either.

So, if She'd either pointed out the routiong before the Transaction, of not bothered saying anything after then, there would not be a problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

His story was picked apart on various forums including here and digitalspy.
Here are links to the threads for you to read through;
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1333391
http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35872

This post gives a particularly good analysis;
http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=488844#post488844




I separated the relevant paragraph that I intend to respond to, in this case I split a paragraph into two parts to answer them separately.
Can I ask how you think I misrepresented your post?

Good God, how naive are You, a person joins the forum for the sole intention of "putting the Record Straight" and You actually believe them.

That would set the alarms ringing immediately.

 

[Greenback]

Unless of course they got on a Leeds train and were charged another fare. As others have said, the guard would have been entitled to do this. Many will unless the passneger asks them if it's alright in advance. Obviously that wouldn't apply if the person didn;t know about the prohibited routeing.

In that case, the passenger would have been justified in complaining that they weren't told about the routeing.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Unless of course they got on a Leeds train and were charged another fare. As others have said, the guard would have been entitled to do this. Many will unless the passneger asks them if it's alright in advance. Obviously that wouldn't apply if the person didn;t know about the prohibited routeing.

In that case, the passenger would have been justified in complaining that they weren't told about the routeing.

Okay, but don't You think I should be told previous to any transaction, as aposed to afterwards, a simple Yes or no will surfice.

 

[90019]

Good God, how naive are You, a person joins the forum for the sole intention of "putting the Record Straight" and You actually believe them.

That would set the alarms ringing immediately.

He made a very good and in depth anaylsis of the video, the fact he was a new member is irrelevant.

Can you please answer the question in my previous post.

 

[Mr Spock]

No, I turned up when I did, becaus I thought there would be no problem doing what I wanted to do. I would have thought the Woman in the Ticket office should have stated what She did before. Instead of after the transaction.

She stated the Routing after I had paid, and without Me even asking, I hadn't asked as I had no idea it could have been a problem. As You say it was Quicker from that point in Time, maybe if I waited 100 years, I'd get a rocket Train in 3 Mins. But it's not going to happen.

Real People don't want to sit about for an Hour and a Half, they'd rather be in a Train moving, 'cos with Northern, what's to say the next one's even going to turn-up?

At 78, I think I've earnt the right to have an opinnion, and not to be patronized by little boys like 90019 who obviously are hardly out of short trousers.

You can have an opinion, but if You can't be bothered to find out the facts, it makes it an opinion nothing more. And as My late Husband used to say, Opinions are like bottoms, everyone has one, but I may not need to see it.

Of course you could have always asked if the ticket was valid via Leeds before buying it.

Are you saying that if somebody just misses a train then they should be able to go anyway they want if another route might get them there a bit earlier than the next train their ticket is valid on?

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion and funnily enough that applies to 90019 as well.

Obviously you did not find out the facts as you would then have known that you could not go via Leeds before you bought the ticket.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Of course you could have always asked if the ticket was valid via Leeds before buying it.

Are you saying that if somebody just misses a train then they should be able to go anyway they want if another route might get them there a bit earlier than the next train their ticket is valid on?

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion and funnily enough that applies to 90019 as well.

Obviously you did not find out the facts as you would then have known that you could not go via Leeds before you bought the ticket.

Okay I'll say it again. Why would I. I thought I'd do somthing sensible, and as it happens quite correct. Any journey is valid as long as You don't use more than three trains, and take more tha 3 trains. Metro Rules.

The routing guide has changed, but again We have to take Your word for it as almost everybody else can't make head nor tail of it.

As for 90019 if again you bothered to read the post it says quite clearly "You can have an opinion, but if You can't be bothered to find out the facts, it makes it an opinion nothing more." So, what part of that says He can't have an opinion?

It quite clearly says the Oposit.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

"something you might have been wise to check before buying the ticket"

Why?....

Common sense? Did you KNOW it was valid via Leeds? ofcourse not, you assumed, wrongly, that it was. If you had asked you would have known for definite that it wasn't, with no upset, grief or arguements.

....I didn't think there would be a problem, She did however, but failed to mention it, without prompting until afterwords....

I would have said it would have been better if she had mentioned it before selling the ticket, but she didn't have to mention it at all. In many ways it was good that she did, but as it happens not to suit you I suspect you won't agree.

I would be interested to know exactly how she told you.

 

[Deerfold]

Okay I'll say it again. Why would I. I thought I'd do somthing sensible, and as it happens quite correct. Any journey is valid as long as You don't use more than three trains, and take more tha 3 trains. Metro Rules.

Now those rules really are kept hidden. I've never heard of them and can't find any mention of them on Metro's website. I wonder how many rail staff have?

 

[Mr Spock]

Any journey is valid as long as You don't use more than three trains, and take more tha 3 trains. Metro Rules.

The routing guide has changed, but again We have to take Your word for it as almost everybody else can't make head nor tail of it.

If you knew this Metro rule about 3 trains why did you just not get on the train anyway?

I have never mentioned the routing guide as I have never seen it or had recourse to needing it so don't blame me for that one.