West Yorkshire mass transit

[Glenn1969]

WYCA is working on a mass transit network that will costs £4.2bn and will submit a business case to Government next year

The plan will link the whole county using existing lines and some disused routes like Spen Valley and Bradford- Halifax via Queensbury and is planned to help connectivity with HS2 and NPR

I wondered what people think of the concept and whether it is a good idea?

Every possible stop in Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax, Dewsbury and Wakefield for new multi-billion pound mass transit network - YorkshireLive (examinerlive.co.uk)

 

[Halifaxlad]

Thanks for creating this!

I was looking at the map this morning someone posted on SM.

It looks very interesting, as for Bradford - Halifax it looks like they're proposing of going via Queensbury Tunnel which may explain the rumors circulating of it being used for a tram a while back.

Otley is proposed although that also looks like a tram, disappointingly despite the fact its perfect for heavy rail!

Dissapointly it doesn't use much of the disused line between Dewsbury & Wakefield via Thornhill Edge/Horbury Bridge.

The most interesting thing I find is the indicate route of the NPHR line, between Elland & Brighouse. That appears to be following the M62.

Edit: Queensbury Tunnel is being considered!
(I don't understand why)

 

[mister-sparky]

Never going to happen...

 

[Halifaxlad]

The full documents can be found here:

Our vision for the future of transport in West Yorkshire

Our vision for transport goes beyond getting people from A to B. It’s about getting all of us – our people, our communities, our businesses – to where we want to be as a region.

www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk

 

[YorksLad12]

Every time someone (usually WYCA, since 2014) comes up with a scheme like this I remember the song "Send me the pillow that you dream on..."

We couldn't get the funding for Leeds Supertram. Then we couldn't get the funding for Leeds NGT Trolleybus. Now they want to send a tram to the Airport... when they're consulting on a very expensive rail station...

 

[Glenn1969]

I hope the fact that the whole county will benefit means this time they do get the funding

 

[geordieblue]

I do think a metro system would be better - less capital cost, faster journeys, and more capacity (albeit not reaching much of Leeds / Bradford without extensive tunnelling)

 

[Andyh82]

It'll never happen

They'll get funding for a study and spend millions on that, and then either this government, or the next government, or the government after that, or the government after that will have a review, or many reviews, and axe it or scale it back

Like others have said, they couldn't even sign off Leeds Supertram, how many years and variations of Transpennine electrification have we had by now, and I still can't see any wires going up, even relatively straight forward things like a new station struggle to get off the ground. There's about half a dozen in west yorkshire alone that have been on the short list for about 20 years.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think the Supertram scheme failed because it didn't cover a wide enough area and the other 4 authorities wouldn't back a scheme that only covered one part of Leeds

 

[YorksLad12]

I think the Supertram scheme failed because it didn't cover a wide enough area and the other 4 authorities wouldn't back a scheme that only covered one part of Leeds

In part, Leeds Supertram failed because it was one line; then they (we - I was there) were encouraged to think big by DfT, which is where the other two lines came from; then the money suddenly wasn't there. It was a 'Leeds' scheme but quite well supported.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks for creating this!

I was looking at the map this morning someone posted on SM.

It looks very interesting, as for Bradford - Halifax it looks like they're proposing of going via Queensbury Tunnel which may explain the rumors circulating of it being used for a tram a while back.

Otley is proposed although that also looks like a tram, disappointingly despite the fact its perfect for heavy rail!

Dissapointly it doesn't use much of the disused line between Dewsbury & Wakefield via Thornhill Edge/Horbury Bridge.

The most interesting thing I find is the indicate route of the NPHR line, between Elland & Brighouse. That appears to be following the M62.

Edit: Queensbury Tunnel is being considered!
(I don't understand why)

File this under "Believe it when I see it" I think...

Plenty of others will pick out the negatives so let's look at the positives. It's certainly ambitious, but I'll need a proper look over the documents rather than a quick scan to see how much thought has been put into it and how realistic it is. A quick scan of the first map shows lots of lines but most of them are bus routes that already exist. The ambition is the most impressive part to be honest though. Much of it is things that have already been proposed at various times, just never all at once. I suppose if WY (mostly Leeds) does get some form of light rail perhaps Leeds Council will axe the ludicrous White Rose station plan, but I've ranted about that enough on here.
Also wasn't one of the Queensbury tunnels stealthily put beyond use over Christmas a year or two ago?

Dewsbury to Wakefield via Thornhill (assuming you mean the route that passes high over Horbury Bridge on the big brick viaduct) closed for a reason: after Thornhill the biggest place it comes close to serving is Crigglestone which isn't exactly a metropolis. That route in particular is more use as a cycle way than a rail route, so it could replace the Spen Valley greenway (from a leisure aspect rather than transport) if that ends up with trams or light rail. To be honest given that this is a WYCA project I'm surprised they aren't proposing to reopen it!

 

[Andyh82]

It’s just one of those presentations full of bullet points and flow charts, and maps with lines on and proposed volumes and projections. Many hundred words, with very little substance that we’ve seen time and time before.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I cannot really see anything in there that isnt currently served by a bus well enough except for perhaps North Leeds

 

[Glenn1969]

It's about connectivity and improving links to HS2/HS3/NPR. And being linked by a bus isn't enough if you want to encourage modal shift given how poor the image of buses is

 

[37424]

Looks like the usual fantasy nonsense that will never happen

From the point view near to where I live Cleckheaton reopening the Spen Valley line is of limited benefit I think most people want to go to Leeds rather than Bradford and there is not much reason to go to Dewsbury these days other than the Hospital.

 

[Glenn1969]

I get the point but think it is about improving connectivity Bradford to Dewsbury and Dewsbury to Wakefield - both of which are currently hard to do by rail. We will see whether the scheme gets funded in 2022. The other difference is the devolution deal and the upcoming arrival of the elected Mayor which puts us on a par with Manchester, Liverpool and Tees Valley

 

[LittleAH]

I admire the vision and I think there's a lot of potential in a mass transit system in West Yorkshire. But some of the suggestions are nonsense - especially what looks to be the utilisation of tram-trains on busy heavy rail networks that won't have the capacity.

 

[Halifaxlad]

It's been on the news, an interesting money point is that money is available and WYCA have to bid for it. I don't know if this differs from before.

Another thing is Boris has previously voiced his support (admittedly indirectly) for a Leeds Mass transit system. Don't forget the tory's are keen to demonstrate their commitment to the North.

Obviously WYCA will probably be bidding for more than we are likely to get. Personally I can't ever see it reaching Halifax especially via Queensbury Tunnel. (Not that I see much point in that anyway)

Very keen to see a route through Cleckheaton as that are certainly would benefit.

 

[37424]

It's been on the news, an interesting money point is that money is available and WYCA have to bid for it. I don't know if this differs from before.

Another thing is Boris has previously voiced his support (admittedly indirectly) for a Leeds Mass transit system. Don't forget the tory's are keen to demonstrate their commitment to the North.

Obviously WYCA will probably be bidding for more than we are likely to get. Personally I can't ever see it reaching Halifax especially via Queensbury Tunnel. (Not that I see much point in that anyway)

Very keen to see a route through Cleckheaton as that are certainly would benefit.

I think the Queensbury one is fantasy land, and I'm not convinced about the Spen Valley route either, its a frequent 40 min Bus ride to Leeds from Cleckheaton where most people want to go, along with a frequent bus service to Bradford, Heckwondwike and Dewsbury for that matter. If it was done it would also still need to allow for the cycleway as well otherwise expect a lot of local agro.

Some of the Leeds based ones may be more viable.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I had a go with some crayons a while ago for those interested.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1lr0uUekiFjb2-U-SK6CN_X3A5lIDMKy7&usp=sharing

Ive filtered out a lot of crayoning to just the key routes I feel this should concentrate on. They're is also a layer showing rail lines for comparison.

 

[YorksLad12]

When we started work on Low Moor Station, more than a few people pointed out it was being built in the 'wrong' place, as it would have to be rebuilt "when the Spen Valley route reopened". We duly pointed out that it wasn't reopening and wasn't likely to either... that route should have been kept open but it isn't coming back, even as a light rapid transit system. Sorry!

 

[Halifaxlad]

When we started work on Low Moor Station, more than a few people pointed out it was being built in the 'wrong' place, as it would have to be rebuilt "when the Spen Valley route reopened". We duly pointed out that it wasn't reopening and wasn't likely to either... that route should have been kept open but it isn't coming back, even as a light rapid transit system. Sorry!

I hope someone tells that to WYCA then because it is part of their plans!

Edit: An interchange at Low Moor, as for the exact route I'm not so sure.

 

[Glenn1969]

Think all those talking about capacity issues are forgetting this is a long term plan for post HS2/NPR connectivity. And why should my local route (I live in Ovenden) not have a LRT connection ? I know that line closed pre Beeching but a lot of people here want to see use made of Queensbury Tunnel

 

[Halifaxlad]

Regarding Queensbury Tunnel I'm not against the idea of LRT running through it, but I don't see the demand for cross Bradford travel to justify it especially when Bradford is about 12 miniutes away by train from Halifax.

Also I'm unsure running LRT through a tunnel alongside a Greenway. Rather see QT as purely a cycle/walking path.

 

[30907]

Regarding Queensbury Tunnel I'm not against the idea of LRT running through it, but I don't see the demand for cross Bradford travel to justify it especially when Bradford is about 12 miniutes away by train from Halifax.

Also I'm unsure running LRT through a tunnel alongside a Greenway. Rather see QT as purely a cycle/walking path.

Think all those talking about capacity issues are forgetting this is a long term plan for post HS2/NPR connectivity. And why should my local route (I live in Ovenden) not have a LRT connection ? I know that line closed pre Beeching but a lot of people here want to see use made of Queensbury Tunnel

Using Queensbury Tunnel for LRT means you cannot serve Queensbury itself which seems a big disadvantage (I assume a deep-level tube station in the tunnel is out of the question ).
That apart, the Bradford-Horton/Clayton-Queensbury corridor is pretty busy and could probably support a tram (or trolleybus - ISTR there is a precedent ) and I presume the Ovenden corridor is the same.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Ive been trying to understand more about the routes before I submit my comments on the consultation, so Ive drawn them in a Map. Some lines are a bit sketchy in particular Wakefield & Five Towns.

Sign in - Google Accounts

www.google.com

 

[Bevan Price]

I think the Queensbury one is fantasy land, and I'm not convinced about the Spen Valley route either, its a frequent 40 min Bus ride to Leeds from Cleckheaton where most people want to go, along with a frequent bus service to Bradford, Heckwondwike and Dewsbury for that matter. If it was done it would also still need to allow for the cycleway as well otherwise expect a lot of local agro.

Some of the Leeds based ones may be more viable.

The problem with the Queensbury route is that the line, and station, were located at the foot of the valley. To reach the main populated areas required a long walk up a very steep hill. People were not going to do that when there was a frequent Halifax - Queensbury - Bradford bus service passing through the most-populated areas.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I don't think the Queensbury Tunnel is a serious suggestion, probably just merely to add to the case to stop it being filled in for the time being.

Personally I think it would be much better going through Illingworth to Keelham then heading to Bradford via Thornton.

 

[Bigman]

According to the Look North bulletin on BBC Breakfast this morning. Queensbury Tunnel is going to be capped at both ends. That will scupper things.

 

[37424]

So having another look at this a taking the two options that are closet to me and "Halifaxlads" Map.

Taking the Spen Valley route its not totally without merit but I think more people from that area probably want to go to Leeds than Bradford for work and shopping, I haven't personally been to Bradford for about 2 years but have been to Leeds, Halifax and Dewsbury in that period. Such as Cleckheaton is administrated by Kirklees so there is no connection there, and Hospitals for that area are generally Mid York's not Bradford.

Now looking at "Halifaxlads" Map and looking at the list of destinations on the routes rather than the maps, it would seem the Spen valley route has Holme Wood listed as a destination that would suggest that instead of taking the direct route to Bradford as a tram train its more likely to be pure tram and take a route which cuts through the Euroway estate, and then through Bierley then across to Holme Wood, that doesn't strike me a good journey time to such as Cleckheaton but would serve more population. I have seen previous suggestions of light rail routed that way.

The idea of a line from Low Moor to Brighouse via Clifton doesn't make any sense to me as it doesn't appear to go through any significant population centres, and of course Bradford, Low Moor and Brighouse are served directly by heavy rail.

Some of the potential gradients on some of the routing shown by "Halifaxlad" look interesting I think the West Yorkshire Light Mountain Railway might be more appropriate.

The whole thing looks like a Crayonista which needs massively more work.