• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

West Yorkshire To Glasgow

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,501
If you want to go from Leeds to Glasgow in the morning, the quickest journey is via Settle. 4h13m on the 07:48 departure is 6 or 7 mins quicker than the via Manchester, Lancaster or Edinburgh options.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,302
Location
Nottingham
I’m currently on a train to Manchester from Huddersfield heading to Glasgow via a change at Picadilly and it’s apparent there's myself and a number of other people from West Yorkshire going this long articulated way.
I would have guessed that via Manchester was the shortest mainline route. How far is it compared to going via York?
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
17,255
Location
East Anglia
If you want to go from Leeds to Glasgow in the morning, the quickest journey is via Settle. 4h13m on the 07:48 departure is 6 or 7 mins quicker than the via Manchester, Lancaster or Edinburgh options.

I’m coming back from Glasgow to Norwich next month via Carlisle/Leeds/Peterborough. Same time as via Manchester.
 

cadder toad

Member
Joined
2 May 2015
Messages
112
I've only been to Leeds twice. I wouldn't know how to go from Glasgow by car. (Leave M6 near Kendal?) My last trip was on business and I went out via Settle and back via Wigan. This was 30 years ago and the S&C portion was in a modern dmu (158?). I just remember a very pleasant trip over the moors. Living in Glasgow, via Settle just seems the 'right' way to me, anything else feels like a diversion
 

MichaelTrains

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2022
Messages
184
Location
Bradford
I have thoughts. But if we go further on this the mods will probably need to pop this thread into the speculative discussion area.



Looking at the ORR figures and taking all journeys between the local authority areas rather than individual stations, we have:

67,000 journeys between West Yorkshire and Edinburgh
37,000 between West Yorkshire and Glasgow

For comparison, Birmingham and Nottingham are both in the 90-100k bracket. These are shorter journeys with hourly direct services.
Other largeish destinations with no direct service to WY and about the same journey time as Glasgow (Oxford, Reading, Cardiff) are below 10,000.

This suggests there is actually a reasonable level of demand for WY-Glasgow.

If the railway wanted to test the appetite for this, the lowest effort option would be to 'borrow' three hybrid trains and run 3-4 services each way per day with minimal stops on the S&C then fast via Beattock. You might be able to get Leeds-Glasgow down to 3h40 (it's currently 4h13 with 18 stops between Leeds and Carlisle and an 18 minute change there).

That's why I started this thread. The TPE service we were on was late into Piccadilly and it became apparent that there were a large number of people going from West Yorkshire to Glasgow because of the conductor going up and down the train marking off how many of us were catching the Glasgow train.

It was a tight six minute connection but everyone made it.

I’m guessing there is no real difference from Bradford/Leeds/Halifax up to Preston and then Glasgow vs Bradford/Leeds/Halifax via the S&C and then up to Glasgow that way?
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,685
Cheaper still is to go on an advance Leeds-Man Vic (via Calder Valley), free bus to Picc, adv Picc to Glasgow C. This comes in at under £20 if you're not in a hurry, which is IMHO ridiculously cheap for such a journey.

Talking of alternative forms of transport it looks like National Express will get you direct from Leeds (coach station) to Glasgow for as little as £14.30 albeit in around 6 hours rather than 4
 
Joined
8 Jun 2009
Messages
624
Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C (fare routed via Appleby) is only £71.40 for an Anytime Return. Clearly priced for attracting passengers who don't mind a less comfortable journey!
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
3,195
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C (fare routed via Appleby) is only £71.40 for an Anytime Return. Clearly priced for attracting passengers who don't mind a less comfortable journey!
Not only is this route substantially cheaper, it is often also quicker. For example, the service departing Leeds at 0748 arrives Glasgow Central at 1201 (4h 13 min), with a return from Glasgow Central at 1840 arriving Leeds at 2248 (4h 8 min), both with a single change at Carlisle. A through train with village station stops eliminated between Skipton and Carlisle (i.e. calling only at Settle and Appleby) could achieve an extra time saving of about 30 minutes.
 

InkyScrolls

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2022
Messages
1,275
Location
North of England
A through train with village station stops eliminated between Skipton and Carlisle (i.e. calling only at Settle and Appleby) could achieve an extra time saving of about 30 minutes.
Not to detract from the point of your post, but for accuracy's sake only calling at Settle and Appleby would only save about twenty mins.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
3,195
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Not to detract from the point of your post, but for accuracy's sake only calling at Settle and Appleby would only save about twenty mins.
The 1336 weekday departure from Carlisle to Leeds calls before Skipton at Kirby Stephen, Garsdale, Ribblehead, Hellifield and Gargrave in addition to Appleby and Settle, and in the public timetable is shown as taking 149 minutes. Cutting out these 5 stops should bring the time down to 140 minutes. The express timing from Glasgow Central to Carlisle with a stop to pick up at Motherwell is about 72 minutes. Together with a 3 minute stop at Carlisle, the overall journey time would be about 215 minutes (3h 35min), provided an express bimode train such as a Hitachi class 802 was used. The current time taken for the 1204 departure from Glagow Central, with a 9 minute connection at Carlisle onto the 1336 departure to Leeds (arr 1605), is 241 minutes (4h 1min).

Anyway, whether the time saved is 20 or 30 minutes is relatively minor. A through journey time of 3h 45min or less would undoubtedly be faster than any alternative route between Leeds and Glasgow, as it is far more direct, despite the relatively low speed now possible (compared to 1965) on the S&C line itself.
 
Last edited:

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,501
Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C (fare routed via Appleby) is only £71.40 for an Anytime Return. Clearly priced for attracting passengers who don't mind a less comfortable journey!
Less comfortable than a Voyager Leeds to Edinburgh? I don't think so!

Living in Airedale, then going via the Bentham Line or S&C are the only sensible options for me. And as has been noted, the "via Appleby" fare is considerably cheaper.

Leeds to Glasgow via Manchester just seems like such a dog leg. I'm surprised that it is a valid route.
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
1,501
Leeds to Glasgow via Manchester just seems like such a dog leg. I'm surprised that it is a valid route.
I think it's around ten miles shorter than via Edinburgh, which makes sense as a valid route (and made more sense when CrossCountry was serving Glasgow every other hour).
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
40,766
Location
Yorks
Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C (fare routed via Appleby) is only £71.40 for an Anytime Return. Clearly priced for attracting passengers who don't mind a less comfortable journey!

Is there an off-peak version ?

I'm sure that journey used to be arounf fifty quid a few years ago. That seems a big hike in that time.
 

Condor7

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2012
Messages
1,049
Location
Penrith
I live in Leeds and when going to Glasgow i avoid the S and C like the plague and will tend to go via the ECML for reliability, comfort and frequency
I think this comment and many other similar ones highlights the problem.

The route from West Yorkshire and beyond via the S&C is clearly the most direct route, just look on a map, the problem is despite the money spent to save the line and maintain it, it still needs further improvements and investment. The line has several low speed limits because improvements are needed, some expensive some not as much.

The other problem is the operator. Northern are not really designed for longer distances particularly through sparsely populated areas. They use exclusively class 158’s which have in recent times been refurbished and as others have commented provide a reasonably comfortable journey, I know I have used it many times.

What is needed however is a lot of the improvements being made to decrease journey times and another operator offering limited stop express services.
 

19Gnasher69

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2021
Messages
79
Location
Aire Valley
I think this comment and many other similar ones highlights the problem.

The route from West Yorkshire and beyond via the S&C is clearly the most direct route, just look on a map, the problem is despite the money spent to save the line and maintain it, it still needs further improvements and investment. The line has several low speed limits because improvements are needed, some expensive some not as much.

The other problem is the operator. Northern are not really designed for longer distances particularly through sparsely populated areas. They use exclusively class 158’s which have in recent times been refurbished and as others have commented provide a reasonably comfortable journey, I know I have used it many times.

What is needed however is a lot of the improvements being made to decrease journey times and another operator offering limited stop express services.
I would tend to agree with all of this (except the “comfort” of the class 158s but will park that issue).

That said, the OP was travelling from Huddersfield so I daresay the S&C route would not, as things stand, offer the OP an optimal journey time.

But it would be great to think that a different operator could offer a faster “express” service over the S&C with better rolling stock. However the Northern stoppers would have to be retained and (along with freights) would potentially have to be negotiated en route. I assume that there are long block sections. And is Blea Moor the only passing place?

All wishful thinking and I’m not holding my breath!
 

sjm77

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2020
Messages
243
Location
Manchester
However, assuming you’re talking about services from Leeds (or Nottingham) to Glasgow, via the Settle to Carlisle line, I suspect they weren’t profitable apart from when the line was threatened with closure so lots of people were taking a “final trip”.

I recall the brief Arriva Trains Northern class 158 service from Leeds-Glasgow via the Settle & Carlisle. Incompatibility incase of failure on the WCML was one of the reasons given for its withdrawal then which seems odd considering the variety of trains operating the route now. Maybe they were just looking for an excuse.
The Northern spirit service was also on shaky ground for pathing reasons. Slotting between 2 class 86/87 hauled services is much easier than trying to path between 2 pendos an hour + other services. A two car 158 is a huge waste of a WCML path too.
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,311
But it would be great to think that a different operator could offer a faster “express” service over the S&C with better rolling stock. However the Northern stoppers would have to be retained and (along with freights) would potentially have to be negotiated en route. I assume that there are long block sections. And is Blea Moor the only passing place?

All wishful thinking and I’m not holding my breath!
Agree it would need to be a different operator. The Northern service is two-hourly so there should be enough space to fit it in. The timetabling difficulty would be on the busier Leeds - Skipton and Carlisle - Glasgow sections.

All that said, if the railway was wanting to develop direct intercity services where these are currently absent, this would probably be a decent one to look at first. The cities involved are big and the route is less busy than others.
 

InkyScrolls

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2022
Messages
1,275
Location
North of England
But it would be great to think that a different operator could offer a faster “express” service over the S&C with better rolling stock. However the Northern stoppers would have to be retained and (along with freights) would potentially have to be negotiated en route. I assume that there are long block sections. And is Blea Moor the only passing place?
The sections are long but not overly so now that IBs have been installed (especially when compared with the Bentham Line!). Blea Moor is the only passing place and only in the Up direction.

Agree it would need to be a different operator. The Northern service is two-hourly so there should be enough space to fit it in. The timetabling difficulty would be on the busier Leeds - Skipton and Carlisle - Glasgow sections.
Easy enough to fit between Leeds and Skipton, there's plenty of 'express' paths available. But whether those paths marry nicely with paths north of Carlisle I don't know.
 

anothertyke

Member
Joined
23 Jun 2023
Messages
150
Location
Leeds
I suspect the pathing would only work with significant layover/recovery time built in at Skipton and Carlisle. Effectively you need three different paths for one train.

Apart from Ribblehead are there really any speed restrictions worth noting? For years there were tsrs while they redid the embankments but at the moment it is pretty good unless you want to raise the line speed above 60.

In terms of routeing, a lot depends on departure times given the low frequencies. Going north the LNER Leeds-Aberdeen train can be good. Some of the connecting times particularly at Lancaster are infuriating. OK if it works....... Running from platform 4 to platform 1.......
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
901
Glasgow is not the travel destination that it used to be. Just look at the number of London-Edinburgh rail services versus London to Glasgow. Check out the passenger numbers at Glasgow Airport (which used to be the busiest in Scotland) compared to Edinburgh Airport (now comfortably the busiest). One of the absurdities of HS2 is the provision of equal services to Glasgow and Edinburgh when demand should heavily favour the latter.
 

InkyScrolls

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2022
Messages
1,275
Location
North of England
I suspect the pathing would only work with significant layover/recovery time built in at Skipton and Carlisle. Effectively you need three different paths for one train.

Apart from Ribblehead are there really any speed restrictions worth noting? For years there were tsrs while they redid the embankments but at the moment it is pretty good unless you want to raise the line speed above 60.

In terms of routeing, a lot depends on departure times given the low frequencies. Going north the LNER Leeds-Aberdeen train can be good. Some of the connecting times particularly at Lancaster are infuriating. OK if it works....... Running from platform 4 to platform 1.......
The only other speed restriction is through Dent, 30 mph.
 
Joined
8 Jun 2009
Messages
624
Is there an off-peak version ?

I'm sure that journey used to be arounf fifty quid a few years ago. That seems a big hike in that time.
On the S&C the only off peak fares are day returns.
If making an off peak day return trip from Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C, splitting at Langwathby provides a modest saving at £63.80.
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,302
Location
Nottingham
One of the absurdities of HS2 is the provision of equal services to Glasgow and Edinburgh when demand should heavily favour the latter.
It would be easy enough to recast the HS2 timetable to send more services to Edinburgh.

As far as I can tell, via Carlisle will become the fastest route from London to Edinburgh as soon as phase 1 opens, and any extension to phase 1 towards Crewe will make it no contest.
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
901
It would be easy enough to recast the HS2 timetable to send more services to Edinburgh.
The imbalance between demand for the two cities is known about now, so the timetable should be recast before the line opens. I am not aware of any plans to address this.
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
1,501
One of the absurdities of HS2 is the provision of equal services to Glasgow and Edinburgh when demand should heavily favour the latter.
They're lower capacity, but wouldn't classic services still be weighted in Edinburgh's favour, especially if there's still 3+ tph via Newcastle? (Currently 2 tph LNER, 1 tph CrossCountry, ~5 tpd each of Lumo and TPE via Morpeth, ½ tph each of Avanti and TPE via Carlisle for Edinburgh vs just the Warrington fasts and an Avanti West Midlands and TPE Manchester Airport in alternating hours for Glasgow ≈ 4-5 tph for England – Edinburgh vs 2 tph for England – Glasgow via Lockerbie)
 

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,311
The imbalance between demand for the two cities is known about now, so the timetable should be recast before the line opens. I am not aware of any plans to address this.
Why are we worrying about timetables this far out? Edinburgh has 400m long platforms so no physical infrastructure is needed if the decision is made to run more capacity to Edinburgh than Glasgow.

By comparison, how long before opening was Crossrail's timetable finalised?
 
Last edited:

sjm77

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2020
Messages
243
Location
Manchester
Apart from Ribblehead are there really any speed restrictions worth noting? For years there were tsrs while they redid the embankments but at the moment it is pretty good unless you want to raise the line speed above 60.

The only other speed restriction is through Dent, 30 mph.
The S&C has almost the longest continual PSR on the network at 53.5 miles from Dent to Petteril Bridge Junction. It's 60mph all the way for passengers and freight, quite remarkable really.
 
Last edited:

Top