West Yorkshire To Glasgow

[TUC]

Those saying 'why does it matter? You only have to change once.' miss the point that in commercial terms a through train is much more attractive to those who would otherwise travel by car. Having to change feels messy and unrelaxing by comparison.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The S&C has almost the longest continual PSR on the network at 53.5 miles from Dent to Petteril Bridge Junction. It's 60 mph all the way for passengers and freight, quite remarkable really.

I never really thought about it like that - that is a long way indeed! What ones are there longer?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Those saying 'why does it matter? You only have to change once.' miss the point that in commercial terms a through train is much more attractive to those who would otherwise travel by car. Having to change feels messy and unrelaxing by comparison.

Maybe so, but would running the services that extra distance up from Carlisle to Glasgow be commercially viable as you would then need more trains and staff. The other issue is that between Leeds and Carlisle there is basically no intermediate population that would contribute to the services to any meaningful degree. I also think that the service would need a significant dwell time in Carlisle to alleviate any delays that would spread either from the Aire Valley northwards or from the WCML to Leeds

 

[norbitonflyer]

I've only been to Leeds twice. I wouldn't know how to go from Glasgow by car. (Leave M6 near Kendal?)

Probably not - the A65 is very slow. M6, M61, M62 or, (slightly shorter but not all motorway) cut across using the A66 from the M6 at Penrith to the A1(M) at Scotch Corner.

By train though, no-one has yet mentioned using the Copy Pit line (York- Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Hebden Bridge - Burnley - Accrington - Preston - Blackpool) to connect into the WCML at Preston. Is that not an option?

 

[sjm77]

I also think that the service would need a significant dwell time in Carlisle to alleviate any delays that would spread either from the Aire Valley northwards or from the WCML to Leeds

I don't really see why it would need any longer dwell time than a regular Avanti West Coast Euston service.

 

[A S Leib]

By train though, no-one has yet mentioned using the Copy Pit line (York- Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Hebden Bridge - Burnley - Accrington - Preston - Blackpool) to connect into the WCML at Preston. Is that not an option?

For some reason return fares are TPE only or via Appleby. For any permitted single fares, permitted routes are

• DO + GD (I think via Doncaster, but that sounds wrong)
• DO + NS + GN (via Newcastle and Tyne Valley)
• GY (Skipton)
• GY + GK (Skipton and Dumfries)
• MN + GN (Newcastle and Tyne Valley, including via Durham Coast)
• MN + MG (TransPennine / Calder Valley + Wigan / Bolton + Penrith, Cumbrian Coast or I think Blackburn – Clitheroe – Settle)
• MN + MG + GK (MN + MG + via Dumfries)
• NP + GP (via Blackburn and Preston)
• NP + GP + GK (NP + GP + via Dumfries)
• YG (Berwick)

It looks like it's around 20 minutes slower than via Berwick or Settle a lot of the time.

 

[MontyP]

If there is ever going to be a regular service from Leeds to Glasgow then it would be a racing certainty that it would be via the East Coast route to pick up intermediate flows to / from York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. Either as a reinstatement of the previous bi-hourly XC service, or perhaps a standalone service starting back from Sheffield/Nottingham.

 

[quantinghome]

The problem with the service via Edinburgh is it has to be routed via Carstairs so it's usually quicker to change trains at Waverley.

Having said that, it's a strange situation where York and Newcastle have direct services to Dundee and Aberdeen but not to Glasgow.

 

[Peter0124]

With regards to the Gla vs Edi thing, another reason why Edinburgh gets a better intercity service is that it offers better connections up north, and also you'd have some Glasgow travellers using Edinburgh (from the ECML - I've done London to Glasgow via LNER and Edinburgh a few times). Whereas very few will travel into Glasgow (from the WCML) for onward connections to Edinburgh. Most would change at Carlisle if they needed to as Edinburgh can be served by both West and East.

 

[A S Leib]

With regards to the Gla vs Edi thing, another reason why Edinburgh gets a better intercity service is that it offers better connections up north, and also you'd have some Glasgow travellers using Edinburgh (from the ECML - I've done London to Glasgow via LNER and Edinburgh a few times). Whereas very few will travel into Glasgow (from the WCML) for onward connections to Edinburgh. Most would change at Carlisle if they needed to as Edinburgh can be served by both West and East.

From Leeds (and Manchester, Preston, Liverpool etc.), going via Carlisle and changing at Haymarket might seem like an easier proposition than changing between stations in Glasgow as well.

 

[Peter0124]

From Leeds (and Manchester, Preston, Liverpool etc.), going via Carlisle and changing at Haymarket might seem like an easier proposition than changing between stations in Glasgow as well.

That too. The curse of having two main terminus stations rather than one through station like Waverley. Otherwise Inverness would actually be time competitive via Glasgow (Scotrail to Inverness is quicker from Queen Street than from Edinburgh).

Glasgow is not the travel destination that it used to be.

Edinburgh Waverley is also rumoured to overtake Central as Scotlands busiest station when the figures come out in November.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That too. The curse of having two main terminus stations rather than one through station like Waverley. Otherwise Inverness would actually be time competitive via Glasgow (Scotrail to Inverness is quicker from Queen Street than from Edinburgh).

If the Open Access service to Stirling comes to anything, that might become the quickest way to Inverness, notwithstanding the change

 

[DarloRich]

Probably not - the A65 is very slow. M6, M61, M62 or, (slightly shorter but not all motorway) cut across using the A66 from the M6 at Penrith to the A1(M) at Scotch Corner.

A1M > A66 > M6 > M78 (?) is the quickest way from Leeds to Glasgow. Trust me. I have tried them all Obviously I would get the train given a choice!

 

[quantinghome]

Glasgow is not the travel destination that it used to be. Just look at the number of London-Edinburgh rail services versus London to Glasgow. Check out the passenger numbers at Glasgow Airport (which used to be the busiest in Scotland) compared to Edinburgh Airport (now comfortably the busiest). One of the absurdities of HS2 is the provision of equal services to Glasgow and Edinburgh when demand should heavily favour the latter.

This is confirmed by the ORR figures - London-Edinburgh is over 1 million passengers, London-Glasgow 350,000. I was quite surprised. It's considerably more unbalanced than journeys from West Yorkshire.

The airport figures don't really say much though - airlines seem to be consolidating and the central belt is essentially a single market for flights. With two airports fairly close to each other it's inevitable that one will become the main hub at the expense of the other.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A1M > A66 > M6 > M78 (?) is the quickest way from Leeds to Glasgow.

M74 presumably? Yes, that seems like a sensible direct route from a goodly portion of Yorkshire up to Glasgow.

 

[thejuggler]

Probably not - the A65 is very slow. M6, M61, M62 or, (slightly shorter but not all motorway) cut across using the A66 from the M6 at Penrith to the A1(M) at Scotch Corner.

By train though, no-one has yet mentioned using the Copy Pit line (York- Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Hebden Bridge - Burnley - Accrington - Preston - Blackpool) to connect into the WCML at Preston. Is that not an option?

On the rare occasion I've been to Glasgow by train I've done both Copy Pit and ECML.

As a regular visitor to Scotland over the years and driving from Leeds I've used A65 to M6 (can be tortuous) and also M65 from Colne to M6, but I now always use the A1 and A66 to Penrith. I do wonder if I'll ever see the day when the A66 is fully dualled. One of those schemes which has been talked about for decades and is now supposed to be happening.

 

[DarloRich]

I do wonder if I'll ever see the day when the A66 is fully dualled. One of those schemes which has been talked about for decades and is now supposed to be happening.

that needs to happen - it has been annouced about 17 times but never delivered. To say such things is heresy here!

 

[Newtraveller58]

The problem with the service via Edinburgh is it has to be routed via Carstairs so it's usually quicker to change trains at Waverley.

Having said that, it's a strange situation where York and Newcastle have direct services to Dundee and Aberdeen but not to Glasgow.

Now that the Carstairs curve has been upgraded, the journey time via Carstairs with a stop at Motherwell should be about the same as the standard 5 stop ScotRail service via Falkirk. The advantage of a through train would be a significant benefit for many people. Via Shotts would be similar now that it is electrified but would not serve Motherwell.

I know this has already been covered in this thread but I think it is shocking that neither the DfT or Transport Scotland are insisting on the reinstatement of at least a 2 hourly Glasgow to North East England service which existed from ECML electrification until Covid, operated initially by IntercIty East Coast and its successors and latterly by CrossCountry.

 

[Peter0124]

Now that the Carstairs curve has been upgraded, the journey time via Carstairs with a stop at Motherwell should be about the same as the standard 5 stop ScotRail service via Falkirk. The advantage of a through train would be a significant benefit for many people. Via Shotts would be similar now that it is electrified but would not serve Motherwell.

I know this has already been covered in this thread but I think it is shocking that neither the DfT or Transport Scotland are insisting on the reinstatement of at least a 2 hourly Glasgow to North East England service which existed from ECML electrification until Covid, operated initially by IntercIty East Coast and its successors and latterly by CrossCountry.

Really they should be bringing back a TPE 802 service from Glasgow to Newcastle/York via Edinburgh. Considering Glasgow is where the Scottish TPE depot is. Its a missed opportunity.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Really they should be bringing back a TPE 802 service from Glasgow to Newcastle/York via Edinburgh. Considering Glasgow is where the Scottish TPE depot is. Its a missed opportunity.

I agree, I loved getting the train from Man Vic to Edinburgh via Newcastle, Spending the day in the Capital then an overnight stay in Glasgow.

 

[route101]

Really they should be bringing back a TPE 802 service from Glasgow to Newcastle/York via Edinburgh. Considering Glasgow is where the Scottish TPE depot is. Its a missed opportunity.

I always think that will come eventually.

 

[xotGD]

Going via Settle, you often get a trolley service of refreshments.

Something that is absent on the via Preston or via Lancaster options.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Going via Settle, you often get a trolley service of refreshments.

Something that is absent on the via Preston or via Lancaster options.

Occasionally the S+C line trolley service even has tubs of ice-cream available, which, IMHO, adds to the experience!

 

[dk1]

Going via Settle, you often get a trolley service of refreshments.

Something that is absent on the via Preston or via Lancaster options.

Good to hear. Probably coming back that way on the 11th.

 

[Peter0124]

Going via Settle, you often get a trolley service of refreshments.

Something that is absent on the via Preston or via Lancaster options.

If you take TPE on the WCML I think they have a trolley service.

EDIT -- Sorry yes the Northern leg would have none

 

[dk1]

If you take TPE on the WCML I think they have a trolley service.

EDIT -- Sorry yes the Northern leg would have none

Perfect for me. Trolley with TPE to Carlisle then again with NT to Leeds.

 

[Gazimo]

that needs to happen - it has been annouced about 17 times but never delivered. To say such things is heresy here!

seems to be happening as a massive construction compound is being setup just outside penrith for highways england



as to the route the settle route is by far the nicest. Mainly because you are changing at a reasonably quiet station instead of one of the huge city centre ones

 

[Class 170101]

Really they should be bringing back a TPE 802 service from Glasgow to Newcastle/York via Edinburgh. Considering Glasgow is where the Scottish TPE depot is. Its a missed opportunity.

But if that gets linked to routes south of Newcastle / York (as it was in Dec 2019) it would need to be advertised carefully. Mind you Birmingham to Glasgow was once possible via two routes so I suppose it can be done.

 

[D6975]

Once Neville Hill - Church Fenton is electrified, it opens up the possibility of a KGX - Edinburgh via Leeds. This wouldn't incur that much of a time penalty. Is there any such proposal on the cards? It seems such an obvious move.

 

[daodao]

Once Neville Hill - Church Fenton is electrified, it opens up the possibility of a KGX - Edinburgh via Leeds. This wouldn't incur that much of a time penalty. Is there any such proposal on the cards? It seems such an obvious move.

Dog-legging via Leeds adds a significant time penalty. Leeds to York is 23 minutes, Sheffield to Leeds (calling at Wakefield Westgate) 40 minutes and Doncaster to Leeds (calling at Wakefield Westgate) at least 30 minutes. Allowing for a 7 minute dwell time at Leeds (as currently allocated to XC), Sheffield to York via Leeds is 70 minutes and Doncaster to York via Leeds would be 60 minutes. That compares to 20 minutes for Doncaster to York direct and 45 minutes for Sheffield to York via Doncaster. That is a time penalty of 25 minutes for existing XC services dog-legging via Leeds and there would be a time penalty of 40 minutes for LNE services to/from London dog-legging via Leeds. IMO, neither are justified/acceptable.