West Yorkshire To Glasgow

[yorksrob]

Occasionally the S+C line trolley service even has tubs of ice-cream available, which, IMHO, adds to the experience!

The blackcurrant flavour is especially recommended !

 

[A S Leib]

But if that gets linked to routes south of Newcastle / York (as it was in Dec 2019) it would need to be advertised carefully. Mind you Birmingham to Glasgow was once possible via two routes so I suppose it can be done.

"Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Victoria" works for TPE services which it's relevant for, although I don't think anybody expects those services to go a different way, with Manchester being advertised as the biggest destination rather than as a routing point.

Once Neville Hill - Church Fenton is electrified, it opens up the possibility of a KGX - Edinburgh via Leeds. This wouldn't incur that much of a time penalty. Is there any such proposal on the cards? It seems such an obvious move.

I think it would be at least 25 minutes longer than avoiding Leeds, although a longer time penalty doesn't put off all through passengers for Crewe / further north – Birmingham – Euston. I don't know if there's the capacity for that and restoring Newcastle – Reading (I think from next December?) and Newcastle – Manchester Piccadilly / Airport to hourly.

Leeds – Newcastle / Edinburgh is currently 158,000 passengers per year (not sure how many split tickets at York or elsewhere) compared to 924,000 for King's Cross. Maybe go as far as York, if there's room to terminate an extra service there? I don't know if anything takes the place of the existing LNER York terminator in the hours it doesn't run, and there's more demand for Leeds – York than anywhere else except King's Cross.

I'm not sure if Leeds – London passengers would appreciate seats being taken up by passengers from York and further north, if those services end up having cheaper advance fares in the way Avanti's West Midlands ones tend to do, although they'd still have the Harrogate / Airedale ones and any ones still terminating at Leeds.

 

[dk1]

Once Neville Hill - Church Fenton is electrified, it opens up the possibility of a KGX - Edinburgh via Leeds. This wouldn't incur that much of a time penalty. Is there any such proposal on the cards? It seems such an obvious move.

It’s quite a time penalty going via Leeds instead of direct to Doncaster.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Once Neville Hill - Church Fenton is electrified, it opens up the possibility of a KGX - Edinburgh via Leeds. This wouldn't incur that much of a time penalty. Is there any such proposal on the cards? It seems such an obvious move.

Has happened during diversions, back in February 2022 I believe, due to engineering works. It does add a significant amount of time to the journey though.

 

[daodao]

It’s quite a time penalty going via Leeds instead of direct to Doncaster.

About 40 minutes, as I calculated in post 90 on this thread.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Going via Settle, you often get a trolley service of refreshments

And as it’s run by the Friends of the S&C as a fundraising initiative I’m always happy to spend liberally when it comes round.

 

[Fudgie]

If you take TPE on the WCML I think they have a trolley service.

EDIT -- Sorry yes the Northern leg would have none

I was on TPE a couple of weeks ago from Glasgow to Leeds via Manchester and very early on they announced that as the train was so busy the trolley could not make it through.

I've went from Glasgow to Leeds a couple of times recently but have taken a different route on each occasion.

Queen St (I got the train into Central then walked across) - Waverley - York - Leeds before going back the same way. Eight trains all in and there was a single three minute delay.

Central - Piccadilly - Leeds then Leeds - Victoria (quick taxi across town) - Piccadilly - Glasgow. All four TPE trains were late which made for some nervous moments connecting in Manchester then as the train home was delayed I then missed my train home from Glasgow. I don't think I'll be repeating that journey any time soon.

Next month I'm going down on the direct XC service to Leeds from Glasgow and the returning the same day via Preston with Northern and Avanti. I'll be doing this journey a lot over the next 6 months so by the end I'm sure I'll have tried every possible permutation.

 

[dk1]

About 40 minutes, as I calculated in post 90 on this thread.

Yes, it’s really not unsubstantial even with a good path.

 

[Nottingham59]

Next month I'm going down on the direct XC service to Leeds from Glasgow and the returning the same day via Preston with Northern and Avanti. I'll be doing this journey a lot over the next 6 months so by the end I'm sure I'll have tried every possible permutation.

Welcome to the forum. Do keep us posted on how you get on.

 

[Iskra]

Dog-legging via Leeds adds a significant time penalty. Leeds to York is 23 minutes, Sheffield to Leeds (calling at Wakefield Westgate) 40 minutes and Doncaster to Leeds (calling at Wakefield Westgate) at least 30 minutes. Allowing for a 7 minute dwell time at Leeds (as currently allocated to XC), Sheffield to York via Leeds is 70 minutes and Doncaster to York via Leeds would be 60 minutes. That compares to 20 minutes for Doncaster to York direct and 45 minutes for Sheffield to York via Doncaster. That is a time penalty of 25 minutes for existing XC services dog-legging via Leeds and there would be a time penalty of 40 minutes for LNE services to/from London dog-legging via Leeds. IMO, neither are justified/acceptable.

It works perfectly fine doing exactly the same on the WCML for Avanti via Birmingham.

 

[daodao]

It works perfectly fine doing exactly the same on the WCML for Avanti via Birmingham.

Really?! I thought that the diversion via Birmingham was for operational convenience and to reduce the number of trains on the Wolverhampton-Coventry sector. It is not really of much use for travelling from London to NW England and Scotland.

 

[Iskra]

Really?! I thought that the diversion via Birmingham was for operational convenience and to reduce the number of trains on the Wolverhampton-Coventry sector. It is not really of much use for travelling from London to NW England and Scotland.

It allows Avanti to serve a secondary long-distance more budget-conscious market which they otherwise may not cater for. Certainly, there is an operational convenience element to it, but it's not without purpose and also links Birmingham to Scotland; much as the theoretical ECML via Leeds service would (XC alone is inadequate).

 

[A S Leib]

much as the theoretical ECML via Leeds service would (XC alone is inadequate).

It's not just XC; there's TPE as well, and I don't know if there's capacity for London – Leeds – Edinburgh as well as restoring a second Newcastle – Manchester.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It works perfectly fine doing exactly the same on the WCML for Avanti via Birmingham.

Avanti Virgin West Coast merged the Birmingham-Scotland service into the London-Wolverhampton service for operational convenience. Any benefits to passengers were merely incidental.

LNER wouldn't have the same operational need to do that dogleg via Leeds. XC, before Covid and the subsequent trashing of the timetable, did divert some of their peak-time Reading-Newcastle services via Leeds in order to provide additional capacity.

 

[Iskra]

Avanti merged the Birmingham-Scotland service into the London-Wolverhampton service for operational convenience. Any benefits to passengers were merely incidental.

LNER wouldn't have the same operational need to do that dogleg via Leeds. XC, before Covid and the subsequent trashing of the timetable, did divert some of their peak-time Reading-Newcastle services via Leeds in order to provide additional capacity.

There may not be an operational need, but there's probably money to be made for LNER if they can pull it off; the only operator able to run full-size direct trains Leeds-Edinburgh would wipe the floor with XC. It may also have some operational benefits/efficiencies by no longer occupying platforms at Leeds for long periods of time, which could improve terminating capacity at Leeds and improve rolling stock utilisation.

 

[Falcon1200]

Really they should be bringing back a TPE 802 service from Glasgow to Newcastle/York via Edinburgh. Considering Glasgow is where the Scottish TPE depot is. Its a missed opportunity.

I agree too. Using TPE's 5-car sets would provide more appropriate capacity for the Edinburgh/Glasgow Central leg, and ideally a two-hourly service would alternate with a two-hourly Scotrail service stopping at Haymarket, Kirknewton, Carstairs and Motherwell.

Once Neville Hill - Church Fenton is electrified, it opens up the possibility of a KGX - Edinburgh via Leeds.

What trains would form this service? Not existing Kings X/Edinburgh services diverted via Leeds, so this would have to be additional trains north of Leeds. Is there capacity and demand for this?

 

[A S Leib]

the only operator able to run full-size direct trains Leeds-Edinburgh would wipe the floor with XC.

The Leeds – Newcastle CrossCountry service I got on Sunday had nine carriages; is there any reason why they couldn't go past Newcastle?

 

[Iskra]

The Leeds – Newcastle CrossCountry service I got on Sunday had nine carriages; is there any reason why they couldn't go past Newcastle?

No, they just don't have enough trains to run all trains as 8+ carriages.

 

[anothertyke]

Dog-legging via Leeds adds a significant time penalty. Leeds to York is 23 minutes, Sheffield to Leeds (calling at Wakefield Westgate) 40 minutes and Doncaster to Leeds (calling at Wakefield Westgate) at least 30 minutes. Allowing for a 7 minute dwell time at Leeds (as currently allocated to XC), Sheffield to York via Leeds is 70 minutes and Doncaster to York via Leeds would be 60 minutes. That compares to 20 minutes for Doncaster to York direct and 45 minutes for Sheffield to York via Doncaster. That is a time penalty of 25 minutes for existing XC services dog-legging via Leeds and there would be a time penalty of 40 minutes for LNE services to/from London dog-legging via Leeds. IMO, neither are justified/acceptable.

Agree. Plus I may be wrong but in my experience, the Doncaster-Leeds and Leeds-Micklefield are two of the most congested and delay prone sections on the Yorkshire network. Unless you were going to withdraw something else, adding more is problematic.

 

[MichaelTrains]

With the greatest respect having an additional Leeds to Edinburgh service doesn't help those of us travelling to Glasgow.

Does anyone know how long a Leeds via Bradford, Halifax and Preston to Glasgow service would take?

Surely that would attract a greater level of service than going up the S&C?

 

[quantinghome]

With the greatest respect having an additional Leeds to Edinburgh service doesn't help those of us travelling to Glasgow.

Does anyone know how long a Leeds via Bradford, Halifax and Preston to Glasgow service would take?

Surely that would attract a greater level of service than going up the S&C?

4 hours on the nose. It's 1h40 from Leeds to Preston, 2h20 from Preston to Glasgow.

Not sure it would attract much more custom than S&C which picks up Bradford passengers at Shipley. Will the Calder Valley and East Lancs generate that much traffic?

 

[InkyScrolls]

With the greatest respect having an additional Leeds to Edinburgh service doesn't help those of us travelling to Glasgow.

Does anyone know how long a Leeds via Bradford, Halifax and Preston to Glasgow service would take?

Surely that would attract a greater level of service than going up the S&C?

It would be in the region of 3 hrs 45 mins, assuming calls at Bradford, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith and Carlisle.

 

[quantinghome]

Agree. Plus I may be wrong but in my experience, the Doncaster-Leeds and Leeds-Micklefield are two of the most congested and delay prone sections on the Yorkshire network. Unless you were going to withdraw something else, adding more is problematic.

100%. If you are choosing which intercity trains should continue through Leeds to Edinburgh on a congested route, cross country services should be first priority and east coast services last.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I was on TPE a couple of weeks ago from Glasgow to Leeds via Manchester and very early on they announced that as the train was so busy the trolley could not make it through.

Was this one through TPE train, or a combination of their services? If the latter, which TPE train was the busiest?

 

[dk1]

Really?! I thought that the diversion via Birmingham was for operational convenience and to reduce the number of trains on the Wolverhampton-Coventry sector. It is not really of much use for travelling from London to NW England and Scotland.

At its inception one of the reasons Virgin gave for combining the two routes was to give Milton Keynes and Coventry a through service to/from Scotland.

 

[Fudgie]

With the greatest respect having an additional Leeds to Edinburgh service doesn't help those of us travelling to Glasgow.

Does anyone know how long a Leeds via Bradford, Halifax and Preston to Glasgow service would take?

Surely that would attract a greater level of service than going up the S&C?

I'll be doing that next month so I'll post how it goes.

Was this one through TPE train, or a combination of their services? If the latter, which TPE train was the busiest?

It was a combination.

Central to Piccadilly although I got off at Oxford Road as the service was 30 minutes late and I was in danger of missing my connection which was the Saltburn train. That turned out to be late as well although it made the time up getting to Leeds.

On the way back I went from Leeds to Victoria on the Liverpool service then made my way across to Piccadilly to catch the direct train to Glasgow. I booked the lot as two separate returns as I could not book it as a through ticket.

I was in 1st so it was hard to judge the rest of the train but both services up and down the WCML were packed and on the return there were plenty of people standing in 1st.

 

[Bradford1]

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/through-settle-and-carlisle-service-under-consideration

According to Modern Railways from 2021, there was a maybe possibility of Cross Country running Leeds to Glasgow via Settle

 

[Fudgie]

Welcome to the forum. Do keep us posted on how you get on.

I was down and up yesterday and it all went pretty smoothly.

The direct XC service from Glasgow makes such a difference and other than a five minute delay getting into Haymarket (which it made up) it was pretty much on time all the way to Leeds. I was sitting in 1st (which wasn't more than half full) and the staff couldn't have been more helpful plus the WiFi was good enough that I could work most of the way down.

The return with Northern to Preston was packed leaving Leeds but thinned out the further West we went and made up the 3 or 4 minutes we were late. When I got to Preston at 1838 I was due to get the 1853 to Glasgow however the 1840 was running late so I jumped on this because my ticket allowed me too. I was sat in 1st class and surprisingly no one checked my ticket but the staff were otherwise very attentive with the only downside being the laptop plugs not working. I heard someone say the whole carriage was affected but I was tired at this point so decided not to move.

Overall it was a successful journey and maybe I got lucky with only small delays but I'll definitely go that way again when time suits.

 

[dk1]

Last Friday I caught the 09:09 Glasgow Central to Carlisle to connect with the 10:58 to Leeds via the S&C. I could've caught the 09:36 Pendolino as it pulled alongside at 10:49 but wanted to assure the connection and sample a class 397. Should I have caught the latter it would have completed the journey in a respectable 4h02m.

 

[Blackpool boy]

It may also have some operational benefits/efficiencies by no longer occupying platforms at Leeds for long periods of time, which could improve terminating capacity at Leeds and improve rolling stock utilisation

So, moving the platform occupancy problem from Leeds to Edinburgh then and putting the problem firmly in Scotrails lap?