West Yorkshire To Glasgow

[quantinghome]

It may also have some operational benefits/efficiencies by no longer occupying platforms at Leeds for long periods of time, which could improve terminating capacity at Leeds and improve rolling stock utilisation.

Sending trains 200 miles away sounds just a little bit over the top for resolving platform occupancy problems - particularly when Bradford FS is getting a new platform.

 

[RGM654]

I' ve just come to this thread and I'm picking up one particular point from a few pages back; that anything from the ECML via Edinburgh continuing to Glasgow has to go a long way round via Carstairs. Why not by any of the routes to Queen Street? Is it just capacity at the terminus? If it has to go to Glasgow Central, would going via Cumbernauld and Coatbridge be even slower than via Carstairs?

 

[Nottingham59]

I' ve just come to this thread and I'm picking up one particular point from a few pages back; that anything from the ECML via Edinburgh continuing to Glasgow has to go a long way round via Carstairs. Why not by any of the routes to Queen Street? Is it just capacity at the terminus? If it has to go to Glasgow Central, would going via Cumbernauld and Coatbridge be even slower than via Carstairs?

It's the railway: "It's always been done that way". Back when the West Coast was electrified to Glasgow, they ran wires from Carstairs to Edinburgh. So the only electrified route for East Coast class 91 Electras to get to Glasgow was via Carstairs and Motherwell.

 

[MontyP]

It's the railway: "It's always been done that way". Back when the West Coast was electrified to Glasgow, they ran wires from Carstairs to Edinburgh. So the only electrified route for East Coast class 91 Electras to get to Glasgow was via Carstairs and Motherwell.

So why does the (diesel) XC service go that way? ISTR that back in the old days, ECML HSTs used to run via Falkirk to Queen Street.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's the railway: "It's always been done that way". Back when the West Coast was electrified to Glasgow, they ran wires from Carstairs to Edinburgh. So the only electrified route for East Coast class 91 Electras to get to Glasgow was via Carstairs and Motherwell.

Not so.


Electrification of Carstairs to Edinburgh was done following ECML electrification in the early 90s.

And the Inter City East Coast trains ran that way as they didnt fit in Queen St platforms. There did used to be an HST into Queen St pre electrification, but it stuck out into the throat (even the tunnel, I think) and blocked multiple platforms. Also the service into Queen St was rather less than it is now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So why does the (diesel) XC service go that way? ISTR that back in the old days, ECML HSTs used to run via Falkirk to Queen Street.

How many XC trains run from Edinburgh to/from Glasgow Central? One per day (each way) mostly? Hardly a 'service' so why does it run, anyway? Train servicing?

 

[Fudgie]

How many XC trains run from Edinburgh to/from Glasgow Central? One per day (each way) mostly? Hardly a 'service' so why does it run, anyway? Train servicing?

I think it's one from Edinburgh early morning which then leaves Central at 7:48 headed for Plymouth. Other than that I don't think there are services that run between the two.

There's also one LNER service from York in the evening that goes all the way to Glasgow but I'm sure I read it was stopping in the next timetable change.

 

[Newtraveller58]

was

It's the railway: "It's always been done that way". Back when the West Coast was electrified to Glasgow, they ran wires from Carstairs to Edinburgh. So the only electrified route for East Coast class 91 Electras to get to Glasgow was via Carstairs and Motherwell.

The advantage of using the route via Carstairs is that it allows trains to stop at Motherwell, which developed a significant flow to Edinburgh when the former GNER and Cross Country operators provided a 2 hourly service (hourly in the peak). With the upgrade to the Carstairs curve a journey time from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh with stops at Motherwell and Carstairs of 50 minutes should be easily achievable if the political will was there to operate such a service. Unfortunately because it was provided by DfT specified operators in Scotland, neither DfT of Transport Scotland are prepared to support it. The services were well used both by “local“ and by ”long distance“ passengers.

 

[MontyP]

The advantage of using the route via Carstairs is that it allows trains to stop at Motherwell, which developed a significant flow to Edinburgh when the former GNER and Cross Country operators provided a 2 hourly service (hourly in the peak). With the upgrade to the Carstairs curve a journey time from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh with stops at Motherwell and Carstairs of 50 minutes should be easily achievable if the political will was there to operate such a service. Unfortunately because it was provided by DfT specified operators in Scotland, neither DfT of Transport Scotland are prepared to support it. The services were well used both by “local“ and by ”long distance“ passengers.

50 mins? Really? The current LNER service takes 64 mins without a Carstairs stop. Where could you save 14 mins?

 

[Newtraveller58]

50 mins? Really? The current LNER service takes 64 mins without a Carstairs stop. Where could you save 14 mins?

The original class 91 timing was 58 minutes but the speed round the Carstairs curve has been raised from 10/20 mph to 40/50 mph. The 64 minute timing of the 0648 from Glasgow includes 6 minutes pathing time and the 80x series train have better acceleration than the class 91 /mark 4 sets. CrossCountry’s westbound Voyager is timed for 60 minutes with 8 minutes pathing time albeit without a stop at Haymarket so the net time is getting quite close to 50 minutes. Maybe 55 would be more realistic than 50 on a regular basis but the benefit of including a Motherwell stop would make this a sensible option.

 

[sjm77]

I agree with the latter posts on Queen Street platform length etc, nothing do do with "we have always done it that way" at all.
Regarding journey times; GNER used to depart Glasgow Central at 10:00, 12:00, 14:00 etc and then those services would depart from Waverley for Kings Cross at 11:00, 13:00 and 15:00 having stopped at both Motherwell and Haymarket.

 

[Iskra]

Sending trains 200 miles away sounds just a little bit over the top for resolving platform occupancy problems - particularly when Bradford FS is getting a new platform.

It's no different to Avanti via Birmingham services on the WCML and I suspect that there's a lot more demand for additional capacity from Leeds to Edinburgh than there is for another train to Bradford.

 

[quantinghome]

It's no different to Avanti via Birmingham services on the WCML and I suspect that there's a lot more demand for additional capacity from Leeds to Edinburgh than there is for another train to Bradford.

The difference is there was already a Birmingham-Scotland service run by the WCML TOC. So it made operational sense to combine it with the London-Wolverhampton service.

The are already plenty of other trains services running north of Leeds up the ECML. It's a question of which one is the best to extend to Edinburgh. And XC is the obvious one because it provides a direct connection to Scotland from Sheffield and Derby. An additional York-Edinburgh service run by LNER would have to displace something else given capacity constraints. What do you propose is cut?

Bradford must be the largest city in the country with the poorest journey options to London. Having a regular direct LNER service would be a huge improvement.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I would have thought that intercity standard trains via S&C to Glasgow would work. From Nottingham or Hull maybe. Perfect to sit within TPEx (or whatever will happen under GBR).

 

[jfollows]

Not so.


Electrification of Carstairs to Edinburgh was done following ECML electrification in the early 90s.

Indeed. 18 March 1991 was the first day it was used.

 

[Harvey B]

You would still have to change once from Huddersfield.

From Leeds, you have an hourly service to Preston with hourly connections to Glasgow or an hourly Cross Country with connections at Edinburgh. This is quicker and more frequent than the long-gone service via the S&C.

Is there not any Direct services to Glasgow from York or Newcastle? Would it not make sense to change at either of those places for Glasgow?

It probably saves you having to change at either Preston or Carlisle too

 

[route101]

There is the possibility of Lumo extending their services to Glasgow. Not sure if the other XC services will come back now.

 

[A S Leib]

Is there not any Direct services to Glasgow from York or Newcastle?

None that get to Glasgow before 22:00 (well, the northbound LNER Glasgow gets there at 21:24, but not from December).

 

[TUC]

CrossCountry staffing issues are the main reason. XC used to operate 2-hourly from Leeds to Glasgow Central but this has fallen away since Covid. They now only operate one direct train per day in each direction.

The usual frustration. Too many rail services are dictated by staff availability rather than customer demand.

 

[Fudgie]

Is there not any Direct services to Glasgow from York or Newcastle? Would it not make sense to change at either of those places for Glasgow?

It probably saves you having to change at either Preston or Carlisle too

There's a XC service from Leeds to Glasgow which goes via both at 1808 in addition to the LNER service mentioned above. It doesn't show up on RTT for yesterday (as an example) but I'm doing Glasgow to Leeds at the end of November and it's available to book then.

 

[TUC]

If anything, the bigger gap is a North East England-Glasgow service. There are a significant number of North East residents with West of Scotland family connections

 

[Starmill]

Given CrossCountry have committed to reinstating their hourly service to Stansted Airport and their full 2tph between Reading and Birmingham, and Birmingham and Sheffield, plus various swaps to fit in the extra service to Cardiff Central as a Voyager, it seems rather unlikely that there's the fleet for the lost Glasgow Central / Penzance / Southampton Central / Exeter St Davids extensions to return. Or rather the fleet is there but it has all been committed to the double formations of Voyager services. Four of those diagrams are there to replace the two HST diagrams.

If there's any flex in the fleet when the Voyager works are complete, it's very unlikely to be Glasgow that gets priority anyway. A bung of cash from Transport Scotland would probably change the situation.

50 mins? Really? The current LNER service takes 64 mins without a Carstairs stop. Where could you save 14 mins?

I think you've misunderstood. The current timing without any allowances from Motherwell to Haymarket is 38 minutes. Add 10-15 minutes to stop at Haymarket and then wait for a free platform at Edinburgh and you're already at a 48-53 minute timing today.

This was the norm for CrossCountry services even prior to the Carstairs works.

 

[MontyP]

Given CrossCountry have committed to reinstating their hourly service to Stansted Airport and their full 2tph between Reading and Birmingham, and Birmingham and Sheffield, plus various swaps to fit in the extra service to Cardiff Central as a Voyager, it seems rather unlikely that there's the fleet for the lost Glasgow Central / Penzance / Southampton Central / Exeter St Davids extensions to return. Or rather the fleet is there but it has all been committed to the double formations of Voyager services. Four of those diagrams are there to replace the two HST diagrams.

If there's any flex in the fleet when the Voyager works are complete, it's very unlikely to be Glasgow that gets priority anyway. A bung of cash from Transport Scotland would probably change the situation.


I think you've misunderstood. The current timing without any allowances from Motherwell to Haymarket is 38 minutes. Add 10-15 minutes to stop at Haymarket and then wait for a free platform at Edinburgh and you're already at a 48-53 minute timing today.

This was the norm for CrossCountry services even prior to the Carstairs works.

I think we were talking about Glasgow-Edinburgh timings via Motherwell, not Motherwell to Edinburgh.

 

[route101]

If anything, the bigger gap is a North East England-Glasgow service. There are a significant number of North East residents with West of Scotland family connections

Yes, popular with weekend breaks too. I do wonder if TPE will extend the Edinburgh to Newcastle service back to Glasgow at somepoint.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, popular with weekend breaks too. I do wonder if TPE will extend the Edinburgh to Newcastle service back to Glasgow at somepoint.

With TPEs trains maintained at a depot in Edinburgh, and frequent Scotrail services between Edinburgh and Glasgow, it doesn't really seem likely.

 

[Fudgie]

With TPEs trains maintained at a depot in Edinburgh, and frequent Scotrail services between Edinburgh and Glasgow, it doesn't really seem likely.

I would agree. The number of trains between the two cities (on a variety of routes) means it doesn't make a lot of sense to extend services beyond Edinburgh.

 

[Grumpy]

There's a XC service from Leeds to Glasgow which goes via both at 1808 in addition to the LNER service mentioned above. It doesn't show up on RTT for yesterday (as an example) but I'm doing Glasgow to Leeds at the end of November and it's available to book then.

I think you’ll find it doesn’t go to Glasgow.
Need to change at Edinburgh

 

[Spartacus]

I think you’ll find it doesn’t go to Glasgow.
Need to change at Edinburgh

Someone should possibly tell XC then https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C48489/2024-11-21/detailed

 

[xotGD]

Scotrail taking over Newcastle-Edinburgh stoppers and combining with existing services to Glasgow would be a good way to provide a direct link.

 

[dk1]

Scotrail taking over Newcastle-Edinburgh stoppers and combining with existing services to Glasgow would be a good way to provide a direct link.

I thought that wasn’t possible and why the Scottish government contracted TPX to do the honours.