Western Access to Heathrow

[WatcherZero]

Staffordshire Chamber of Commerce has been campaigning for reinstatement of Stoke-Manchester trains calling at the Airport since 2003.

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...-Stoke-Trent/story-16548404-detail/story.html


When your talking about 4 trains an hour between Bristol and London diverting one to a slightly slower route isnt a major loss, its the difference between the WCML limited stop services and a stopper that takes 20 minutes longer. The whole point of the diversion is to save people having to go into central London and change to another train to double back to the airport again.

 

[LE Greys]

Staffordshire Chamber of Commerce has been campaigning for reinstatement of Stoke-Manchester trains calling at the Airport since 2003.

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...-Stoke-Trent/story-16548404-detail/story.html


When your talking about 4 trains an hour between Bristol and London diverting one to a slightly slower route isnt a major loss, its the difference between the WCML limited stop services and a stopper that takes 20 minutes longer. The whole point of the diversion is to save people having to go into central London and change to another train to double back to the airport again.

It would also reduce the need for the Reading-Heathrow coach link, if it does not kill it off completely. That often gets held up on the M4 and is not very reliable, not to mention problems with heavy luggage and coaches.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

As swt_passenger pointed out much earlier in the thread, there is no mention of services originating to the west of Reading. This is not the Heathrow Hub and there would be all sorts of pathing issues with trains leaving and then rejoining the GWML. Integrating into Crossrail would have the same problems especially given the short headways.

I really see this as a standalone service between Heathrow and Reading with extensions to Oxford and Basingstoke.

 

[JamesRowden]

The plan for the Reading stopping services towards Paddington after Crossrail (Crossrail to Heathrow and Maidenhead) was to have:

2tph Reading - Paddington
2tph Reading - Slough

I expect with the new junction the stopping services will be:

2tph Reading - Paddington
2tph Reading - Heathrow

With regards to the fast services, services between Reading and Heathrow will be able to use the paths left by the Heathrow Express. This is 4tph.

After the Reading station upgrade more trains will be able to run through. I would give as a possible set of fast services to Heathrow from Reading:

1tph Birmingham (or beyond) - Heathrow
1tph Cardiff - Heathrow
1tph Bristol Temple Meads - Bath - Heathrow
1tph Southampton / Basingstoke - Heathrow

A person would be able to change at Reading from one of these services to get to Paddington and vice/versa.

 

[D365]

I assume non-Crossrail stoppers and semi-fasts will be run by 319s. Although this is going slightly off-topic, there is still capacity available from Crossrail; 14tph terminating at Paddington is, all-in-all, a waste. Could this be used by semi-fasts and Heathrow through services?

 

[Class 33]

Here is where I got the impression that services from Bristol and South Wales would be running to Heathrow Airport.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/500m...hrow-Airport/story-16543512-detail/story.html

Among the new schemes included in Ms Greening's statement was "a new £500m rail link between the Great Western Main Line and Heathrow allowing direct services to the airport for passengers from the West Country, the Thames Valley and Wales".

But as I said I don't know how they'd be able to path in those services anyway. At most they MIGHT be able to just about path in one such service per hour running to/from west of Reading. So for example services to/from Bristol every two hours(with some of those services extended to/from Plymouth), and services every two hours serving South Wales. And with the new metro services in the Bristol and Bath area, it would be impossible to schedule any Heathrow services to run via Bath and Chippenham.... unless one of the two Bristol-London Paddington services per hour is dropped.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Sounds Good

Let's run the Edinburgh/Glasgow WC Pendlinos to Heathrow.

Exactly - the new link should be used to provide direct services from Scotland, the north of England and the midlands to Heathrow.

It is almost impossible to get to that wretched airport from Euston by public transport, particularly if you have heavy luggage or kids in tow.

I always have to fly from Manchester to get to LHR and I hate having to do so.

 

[tbtc]

As swt_passenger pointed out much earlier in the thread, there is no mention of services originating to the west of Reading. This is not the Heathrow Hub and there would be all sorts of pathing issues with trains leaving and then rejoining the GWML. Integrating into Crossrail would have the same problems especially given the short headways.

I really see this as a standalone service between Heathrow and Reading with extensions to Oxford and Basingstoke.

That looks like a reasonable solution to me.

I just think that the time penalties for diverting a Bristol/ Cardiff service that way are going to be pretty significant for longer distance passengers, so a shuttle between Heathrow and Reading/ Oxford/ Basingstoke would make more sense.

 

[WatcherZero]

The whole point of this link is for direct services to those destinations so they dont have to change. People with baggage dont like having to change trains!

 

[Rational Plan]

The whole point of this link is for direct services to those destinations so they dont have to change. People with baggage dont like having to change trains!

Nether the less, fast paths on the GWML are like gold dust. The released Heathrow express paths were to go to provide new peak express to Reading according to the RUS.

The only spare capacity is on the slow lines. The RUS envisioned 4 of the 10 crossrail services for Heathrow rejoining the mainline westwards to Reading. The greatest numbers of travelers to Heathrow are from London and the Western corridor. A a semi local service to Reading or Oxford would attract the greatest riders.

Unless all high speed services were diverted via a new Heathrow mega station, a train service every hour is not that useful. A straight forward change at Reading would link with the most services and still save time and money, compared to doubling back on yourself at Paddington

 

[WatcherZero]

Electrification and other signalling enhancements will create new paths.

 

[gwr4090]

I don't think the official documentation makes any reference to long-distance through trains calling at Heathrow ? It just states that passengers from the west will be able to reach Heathrow without travelling into Paddington. I expect this means changing at Reading.

The quote above from This is Bristol is probably journalistic licence or misinterpretation.

David

 

[WatcherZero]

Well she said in the House that people from Swindon would see a 30 minute reduction in journey times to Heathrow.

Theres also the FGW statement:

WEST OF ENGLAND - First Great Western (FGW) has welcomed the Government’s statement on western rail access to Heathrow Airport via a new curve.

Following the Government's pledge of £500m for the new rail link, FGW’s MD Mark Hopwood said: "The commitment to £500 million to fund western rail access to Heathrow is great news for local economies across the network.

In speaking to the business communities across our region, they really value the economic benefits improved rail access to Heathrow could bring to cities like Slough, Reading, Swindon and Bristol, as well as South Wales and the South West.

I'm pleased we've been able to work with them and industry partners to move the debate forward to this stage.”

 

[cle]

How would the Heathrow platforms be used with 4 Crossrail trains and possibly others either originating there or through long distance trains from Paddington.

As I know there are two more platforms built - but the HEx platforms would need to be tunnelled through to the outside too I would assume.

Might there need to be 4 bi-di platforms - but maybe used as such:

one through London-bound
one terminal to/from London (but through track and bi-di)
one terminal to/from West (but through track and bi-di)
one through West-bound

Problem with intercity trains is that they're fine for flight departures - but flight arrival times are unpredictable and you could have people missing them and waiting for up to an hour - not to mention their advance tickets becoming invalid.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Nothing in that FGW statement suggests direct services from anywhere west of Reading.
It talks about "improved rail access", which is what an interchange at Reading will provide.

Following on from electrification, Reading redevelopment and Crossrail, there is great pressure to squeeze extra paths onto the fast lines between Reading and Paddington.
Linking in the fast lines to the Heathrow western spur will kill any chance of that.
Plus, the railway from T5 to Airport Junction is privately owned by the BAA; not to mention that the tunnels may not be able to take 26m stock.

Then look at the business case for direct trains from the west (Bristol etc).
At most, at peak times the numbers wanting to get to Heathrow will probably be measured in several dozens. at off-peak times relatively few.

Compare that with a Reading to Heathrow service (via the relief lines), that will pull in passengers connecting from several different train services from the west, southwest and north, in addition to the larger number of people from the Thames valley who will use it, either as passengers or to get to work at the airport.
That is a good basis for a frequent service and it's that frequency that will increase its attractiveness.

Once Crossrail is up and running, on the current plans to terminate at Maidenhead, there are only going to be 4 tph eastbound from Reading on the relief lines. Two limited stoppers to Paddington and two local stoppers to Slough.

Between Maidenhead and the new Heathrow west junction off the GWML, the morning peak sees only 8 tph (inc. 4 Crossrail). Between Maidenhead and Slough 10 tph.

Even without factoring the possibility of Crossrail extending to Reading, it's quite clear where the capacity for a Reading to Heathrow service will come from.

Extending Crossrail to Reading and integrating it with Heathrow services between the airport and that station would seem to be the logical step to take, but I guess we shouldn't underestimate the complexities of trying to rationalise the relationship between the 3 train operators and 3 infrastructure owning bodies that will be present in this new environment.
Set against that, trying to squeeze in long distance routes into Heathrow (if in fact technically possibly), will be incredibly difficult.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well according to the chord business plan the passengers on the line are expected to be 80% business travellers and only 20% leisure travellers.

 

[tbtc]

The whole point of this link is for direct services to those destinations so they dont have to change. People with baggage dont like having to change trains!

But then people from Bath/ Cardiff/ Oxford won't want to see many of their trains to/from Paddington taking maybe fifteen* minutes longer to serve Heathrow - how do you square the circle?

(* - feel free to make up another number - it'll obviously be a lot slower travelling the Heathrow tunnels than running non-stop from Paddington to Reading, plus the dwell at Heathrow may have to be a couple of minutes to accomodate those with luggage etc)

 

[JamesRowden]

Following on from electrification, Reading redevelopment and Crossrail, there is great pressure to squeeze extra paths onto the fast lines between Reading and Paddington.
Linking in the fast lines to the Heathrow western spur will kill any chance of that.

As I explained earlier, the Heathrow express services leave 4tph worth of paths on the Fast lines between Heathrow and Reading. This means that a mirror of the Heathrow Express service would fit into these paths at 4tph.

If the Newcastle to Reading Crosscountry service (or an equivalent future service [e.g. Glasgow Central - Birmingham New Street - Heathrow]) could be timed to fit into one of these gaps, it would allow direct services to Heathrow from the West Midlands without requiring any extra paths apart from between Reading and Slough (where we know that at least 4tph are available). In the Goverment's announcement it also stated that capacity is being increased on the Reading to Birmingham line.

I think that 4 off-peak fast trains an hour between Reading and Heathrow would be very good since it would produce good connections between any service to Reading and Heathrow.

There is no need to catch a plane at peak times and so the Heathrow Express and Heathrow - Reading fast services could be reduced or suspended during peak hours to allow more paths into London. The stopping services would still allow people to get a direct train from Reading/Crossrail to Heathrow.

 

[BananaRepublic]

There is no need to catch a plane at peak times and so the Heathrow Express and Heathrow - Reading fast services could be reduced or suspended during peak hours to allow more paths into London. The stopping services would still allow people to get a direct train from Reading/Crossrail to Heathrow.

??????? Oh dear !!!! :roll::roll::roll:

 

[Rational Plan]

As I explained earlier, the Heathrow express services leave 4tph worth of paths on the Fast lines between Heathrow and Reading. This means that a mirror of the Heathrow Express service would fit into these paths at 4tph.

If the Newcastle to Reading Crosscountry service (or an equivalent future service [e.g. Glasgow Central - Birmingham New Street - Heathrow]) could be timed to fit into one of these gaps, it would allow direct services to Heathrow from the West Midlands without requiring any extra paths apart from between Reading and Slough (where we know that at least 4tph are available). In the Goverment's announcement it also stated that capacity is being increased on the Reading to Birmingham line.

I think that 4 off-peak fast trains an hour between Reading and Heathrow would be very good since it would produce good connections between any service to Reading and Heathrow.

There is no need to catch a plane at peak times and so the Heathrow Express and Heathrow - Reading fast services could be reduced or suspended during peak hours to allow more paths into London. The stopping services would still allow people to get a direct train from Reading/Crossrail to Heathrow.

They want those paths for express commuter services from Reading to London, thereby reducing the crush on HST services from Reading.

A 15 minute frequency on the slow lines would be attractive to users.

 

[JamesRowden]

They want those paths for express commuter services from Reading to London, thereby reducing the crush on HST services from Reading.

A 15 minute frequency on the slow lines would be attractive to users.

I travel on that route a lot and there is not a "crush" at off-peak times (apart from when FGW aren't running enough trains when there is capacity for more trains [e.g. Sunday evening]), there is only need the for more capacity at peak times.

After the upgrades at Reading the bottleneck will be the line between Airport Junction (Hayes and Harlington) and Paddington. If the Heathrow Express is not scrapped completely then duplicate paths are produced between Reading and Slough. This means that by not running a fast Reading - Heathrow service the available capacity on the line would simply be wasted.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....If the Heathrow Express is not scrapped completely then duplicate paths are produced between Reading and Slough. This means that by not running a fast Reading - Heathrow service the available capacity on the line would simply be wasted.

The Heathrow Express is indeed a sticking point and that issue will have to be resolved in one way or another; however, if the Heathrow western link is connected to the fast lines, I doubt you'll gain those 4 extra paths.
In other words, there's a risk to the capacity of the fast lines by introducing a new junction.
It's the relief lines west of West Drayton that have the capacity for the addition of Reading - Heathrow services.

 

[cle]

The Heathrow Express is indeed a sticking point and that issue will have to be resolved in one way or another; however, if the Heathrow western link is connected to the fast lines, I doubt you'll gain those 4 extra paths.
In other words, there's a risk to the capacity of the fast lines by introducing a new junction.
It's the relief lines west of West Drayton that have the capacity for the addition of Reading - Heathrow services.

Yep. May not be confirmed officially but it is certain that during the peaks, Heathrow Express services will run on the relief lines -doing some skip stopping (Ealing, Hayes) to slow them down a bit, for pathing.

These will clear 4 fast electric paths to Reading - I would wager 2tph Reading only, 1tph on towards Newbury, 1tph to Oxford.

So the reliefs will indeed gain four paths west of Hayes as the HEx trains drop off to the airport. And due to ex-Connect trains going down to the airport too (both T5 and T4 are planned) - there will be heaps of paths on the reliefs west of Langley.

The Western Access trains seem a perfect candidate for these paths - be they Crossrail through trains, shuttles from Heathrow, or 'pretend shuttles' which are actually ostensibly Crossrail trains, such as the old London - Northampton - Birmingham services, but masquerading as different services.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think the layout at Heathrow T5 has been discussed much at all, (although touched on by cle earlier)but wasn't it built with the aim that the current two 'spare' platforms are only for trains terminating from the west, and it is the the two 'in use' platforms that are capable of being altered to provide through platforms.

Does anyone know how straightforward it would be to add access to all four platforms from the London side? Thinking about dwell times and the competing requirements for through and terminating trains - would there be advantages in having two up and two down platforms, and a central turnback beyond the station to the west?

If anyone's aware of an online drawing that might be useful to see...

 

[LE Greys]

The Heathrow Express is indeed a sticking point and that issue will have to be resolved in one way or another; however, if the Heathrow western link is connected to the fast lines, I doubt you'll gain those 4 extra paths.
In other words, there's a risk to the capacity of the fast lines by introducing a new junction.
It's the relief lines west of West Drayton that have the capacity for the addition of Reading - Heathrow services.

The most obvious answer would be to combine the two. Passengers for London are hardly likely to use the Heathrow services, especially since it is most likely that they would not be advertised as continuing beyond the airport. from their origin stations. The 15-minute delay is quite useful, in that it would allow trains to slot out of one path, make two calls at the airport, then slot into the next path. 125mph EMUs would be useful here, and ideally the trains would call at Slough to improve links from there. Extending them to Oxford would be ideal, but that might have to wait for the inevitable timetable recast after a few years.

The problem is to make sure Heathrow Express' operators will allow it.

 

[gwr4090]

The most obvious answer would be to combine the two. Passengers for London are hardly likely to use the Heathrow services, especially since it is most likely that they would not be advertised as continuing beyond the airport. from their origin stations. The 15-minute delay is quite useful, in that it would allow trains to slot out of one path, make two calls at the airport, then slot into the next path. 125mph EMUs would be useful here, and ideally the trains would call at Slough to improve links from there. Extending them to Oxford would be ideal, but that might have to wait for the inevitable timetable recast after a few years.

The problem is to make sure Heathrow Express' operators will allow it.

By definition therefore, fast trains stopping at Heathrow would use TWO of the Paddington-Reading paths, because the path used between Paddington and Airport Jc becomes vacant for the rest of the way to Reading, while the path used from "Langley Jc" to Reading would be unused east of the Junction.

I believe that the aspiration is to run 16-18 trains per hour on the fast lines to meet the forecast demand between Paddington and Reading. This just about ties in with the proposed service, including 4tph via Heathrow. The off-peak pattern might be :

4 tph to Bristol
1 tph to Swansea
1 tph to Cardiff
1 tph to Worcester
1 tph to Cheltenham
1 tph to Westbury/Exeter
1 tph to Plymouth/Penzance

plus
4tph to Reading/Basingstoke/Oxford calling at Heathrow each taking two paths.

This gives a total of 14 trains requiring 18 effective 125mph paths Paddington-Reading at 3.33 minute intervals.

David

 

[LE Greys]

By definition therefore, fast trains stopping at Heathrow would use TWO of the Paddington-Reading paths, because the path used between Paddington and Airport Jc becomes vacant for the rest of the way to Reading, while the path used from "Langley Jc" to Reading would be unused east of the Junction.

I believe that the aspiration is to run 16-18 trains per hour on the fast lines to meet the forecast demand between Paddington and Reading. This just about ties in with the proposed service, including 4tph via Heathrow. The off-peak pattern might be :

4 tph to Bristol
1 tph to Swansea
1 tph to Cardiff
1 tph to Worcester
1 tph to Cheltenham
1 tph to Westbury/Exeter
1 tph to Plymouth/Penzance

plus
4tph to Reading/Basingstoke/Oxford calling at Heathrow each taking two paths.

This gives a total of 14 trains requiring 18 effective 125mph paths Paddington-Reading at 3.33 minute intervals.

David

Well, yes and no. The idea is roughly equivalent to 'looping' a train to allow a faster train through. Only in this case, the loop is long enough to have signals, so the incoming train enters the loop at roughly the same time that the preceding one is leaving, therefore using the same path twice since there is a gap of a few block sections between the entry and exit points of the loop. It might mean a long stop at Heathrow, but that is bound to happen anyway, since there will be a lot of passengers with luggage. The biggest problem would be deceleration and acceleration on the mains, which is why there is such a long lead into Airport Junction, which would presumably be replicated at 'Langley Junction'. The stop at Slough would not help either, but a lot of airport workers live in and around Slough, so stopping there would ease staff parking problems.

125mph electric stock would be needed to keep up with IEPs, but that could be used on the Oxford Flyer as well.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Well she said in the House that people from Swindon would see a 30 minute reduction in journey times to Heathrow.

Well, at least Ms Greening has got her priorities right!!

I agree that passengers with luggage would prefer direct services to the airport. However, waiting at the airport for up to an hour on the return is not going to win over the general public.

I am not sure what effect the new station layout at Reading will have on transfers. I have used the Railair service on a number of occasions; it's not difficult to improve on that.

 

[burty76]

The fast lines out between Paddington and Reading could cope with 16 trains per hour couldnt they? ie.

4tph Bristol
2tph Wales
3tph Oxford
3tph Newbury/West of England
4tph Heathrow

If, as now, the Heathrow trains left at xx10, 25, 40 and 55, then assuming a 15 minute time penalty for travellign via the airport, then as an example the xx10 could pick up the path of the xx25 west of Heathrow. If that makes sense....

 

[BananaRepublic]

125mph electric stock would be needed to keep up with IEPs, but that could be used on the Oxford Flyer as well.

That 125 mph stock will be the IEP SET's.

All this fantasising has not addressed three key issues.
1. Will 26 metre stock fit into the Heathrow tunnels?
2. The new junction will reduce the number of paths available and will be counter-productive in trying to increase the number of paths and total capacity of the fast lines.
3. The line through Heathrow is privately owned and not part of the Network Rail empire. There will be a need to protect the planned services (8 tph to London + growth of 2 more). Where does that leave capacity for additional through trains with the required dwell times at both stations (T5 and the Central area)?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree that passengers with luggage would prefer direct services to the airport. However, waiting at the airport for up to an hour on the return is not going to win over the general public.

This is another flaw with the direct trains idea.
The low frequency will be a disincentive. Waiting for an hourly train at Heathrow will not be popular, when there are other trains that could be caught, whizzing passed on the main-line every few minutes.

With the redeveloped Reading station, changes should be more convenient.
The new "transfer deck" (posh words for a very wide footbridge, with station facilities accommodated on it) with its escalators and lifts, should allow fairly easy changing of platforms. Plus, with a 4 tph Heathrow service, anyone arriving from the west will only have a maximum of 15 minutes to wait between trains.
Allowing for time to leave a train and transfer to the Heathrow bound platform, that waiting time is more realistically going to be 10 minutes or less for many passengers, unless they just miss the first connection.
Similarly, 4 tph from Heathrow to Reading means very little hanging around at the airport waiting for a train.

The business case for direct trains would also be quite weak. How many people would be using them from beyond Reading and the Thames Valley?